Name: 雅各布·索博羅夫怒批 ICE 的行為：簡直太壞了！涉及明尼蘇達、加州等地！ ("Frankly, It's Depraved" - Jacob Soboroff On ICE's Actions In Minnesota, California And Elsewhere)
Uploaded: 2026-01-30T17:03:32.000Z
Duration: 6 min 7 s

Ladies and gentlemen, folks, my next guest is the senior political and national correspondent for Ms. Now.

各位女士們、先生們、朋友們，我下一位的來賓是 Ms. Now 的資深政治與國家事務記者。

程度副詞

He has just written a new book, firestorm, the Great Los Angeles Fires and America's New Age of Disaster.

他最近寫了一本新書，書名是 firestorm, the Great Los Angeles Fires and America's New Age of Disaster。

Please welcome back to THE LATE show, Jacob Soborov.

歡迎 Jacob Soborov 回到 THE LATE show。

I want to get to your book Firestorm in just one moment.

我想馬上跟你聊聊你的書 Firestorm。

But before we get into the book, you just got back from Minneapolis.

不過，在我們進入書本內容之前，你剛從明尼阿波利斯回來。

Where I know among other things, you were covering the ICE raids and you spoke with Governor Tim Walls.

我知道你在那裡報導了 ICE raids，也和 Governor Tim Walls 談過。

And we've heard a lot this week about some talk of de escalation and changing of some changing of leadership and policy there.

這週我們聽了很多關於 de escalation 的討論，以及領導和政策上的改變。

What's the reality on the ground and what are things like there this week?

那實際情況如何？這週那邊怎麼樣？

I think the first thing that everybody needs to understand is when they say they're going after the worst of the worst, they are doing anything but.

我覺得大家首先需要了解的是，當他們說要抓「最壞的壞人」時，事實上並不是這樣。

What I have seen, not just in Minneapolis, but

我所看到的，不只是在明尼阿波利斯，

in Los Angeles, in Charlotte, in Chicago, in the hallway of 26 Federal Plaza here in New York City, these are people who want to come in for a better life.

還有在洛杉磯、夏洛特、芝加哥，還有紐約市聯邦廣場 26 號的走廊裡，這些人只是想來追求更好的生活。

And you've got people like Greg Vino going around in military costumes, throwing tear gas canisters at people, taking little kids who just want to go to school and sending them to detention centers in Texas.

而你卻看到像 Greg Vino 這樣的人穿著軍裝到處走，對人們投擲催淚瓦斯，還把只想去上學的小孩送去德州的拘留中心。

But I will say the people in the streets are what has given me extreme and that's what kicked Greg Medino out of Minneapolis.

但我必須說，街頭上的這些人讓我感到極度... 這也是讓 Greg Medino 離開明尼阿波利斯的原因。

I know the first time, the first time we ever spoke actually had to do with your covering of immigration closely during the first Trump administration.

我知道我們第一次真正聊到，是因為你密切關注了第一任 Trump administration 時期的移民議題。

And you wrote a best selling book about his family separation policy.

而且你還寫了一本關於他家庭分離政策的暢銷書。

And I'm just curious now compare Trump's immigration policy now to Trump won.

我很好奇，現在的 Trump 移民政策和 Trump 贏得大選時相比，

I would call it a super sized version of the family separation policy.

我會稱之為家庭分離政策的超級放大版。

Mass deportation is family separation by another name.

大規模驅逐出境只是家庭分離的另一種說法。

It's not family separation at the border.

這不是在邊境進行的家庭分離。

And family separation itself was one of the most shameful things I can imagine from the first administration.

而家庭分離本身，我認為是那個政府最可恥的作為之一。

The Republican appointed judge who stopped the policy called it one of the most shameful chapters in the history of our country.

任命這項政策的共和黨籍法官稱其為我國歷史上最可恥的篇章之一。

And Stephen Miller, you know, they separated 5,500 children deliberately from their parents.

你知道，Stephen Miller 和他們故意將五千五百名兒童與父母分開。

然後他還想擴大到兩萬五千人。

This program that they're doing now is modeled after a 1954 program that deported a million Mexicans and some Americans.

他們現在執行的這個計畫，是以一九五四年驅逐一百萬墨西哥人和一些美國人的計畫為藍本。

And now they're not just deporting, they're killing immigrants and American citizens like Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy.

而且他們現在不只是驅逐，他們還殺害像 Renee Nicole Goode 和 Alex Preddy 這樣的移民和美國公民。

And that's why, that's why we have to be in these cities.

這就是為什麼，這就是為什麼我們必須出現在這些城市。

這就是為什麼我會繼續前往那裡。

That's why we continue to spotlight this.

這就是為什麼我們要持續關注這件事。

And that's why I think, as I said again, it is so extraordinary to watch American people push back on this.

這也是為什麼我認為，就像我剛才說的，看到美國人民強烈反對這件事，真的非常不尋常。

As horrifying as it was the first time, and

即使第一次已經夠讓人心驚膽戰了，而且

it was, it was, it was shocking to watch this during the first Trump administration.

在第一個 Trump administration 的時候，看到這一切真的讓人感到震驚。

第一次的時候我們已經有 Homan 了。

What, what makes the difference this time around?

You know, whether or not you like John Kelly.

你知道，不管你喜不喜歡 John Kelly。

He was a, he was a check on Stephen Miller in the first term.

他在第一任期時，是 Stephen Miller 的一個制衡。

Stephen Miller is effectively the president when it comes to immigration policy right now.

就移民政策而言，現在 Stephen Miller 實際上就是總統。

As much as I think it pains me and I think probably all of you to hear that, but.

雖然我覺得聽到這件事很痛苦，我想你們大家應該也一樣，但是。

And the other thing is, you've got Tom Holman.

還有另外一件事，就是 Tom Holman。

Tom Holman went in and he replaced Gregory Bevino.

Tom Holman 進去接替了 Gregory Bevino。

Tom Holman said to me on the second day of the raids, someone is going to die.

Tom Holman 在 ICE raids 的第二天跟我說，會有人死掉。

That was seven months ago in Los Angeles.

And the people who are the most extreme voices within the administration have the most powerful positions today.

而在政府裡聲音最極端的人，今天擁有最有權力的職位。

What did he mean, do you think, when he said that someone is going to die?

你覺得他說「會有人死掉」是什麼意思？

Did he say this is going to lead to a conflict that will lead to violence?

他是說這會導致衝突，進而引發暴力嗎？

Like this amount of pressure on a community is going to lead to someone lashing out.

就像這種對社區施壓，會導致有人情緒失控。

And was he meaning like someone is going to kill an ICE officer or what did he think was going to happen?

他是說會有人殺死 ICE 官員，還是他認為會發生什麼事？

I think he meant someone is going to get killed because of the tone and the tenor of the aggressiveness of the operations will lead to people pushing back.

我認為他是指會有人是以喪命，因為行動的語氣和侵略性會讓人們反擊。

And that clash, you know, when I talked to Gavin Newsom or when I talked to JB Pritzker or when I talked to Tim Walls yesterday, they all, they all say the same thing.

而這種衝突，你知道的，我跟 Gavin Newsom 談，或是跟 JB Pritzker 談，或是昨天跟 Governor Tim Walls 談，他們都說一樣的話。

These clashes that Tom Homan has sort of telegraphed are set up to have the invocation of the Insurrection act so he can have military troops on American streets.

Tom Homan 預告的這些衝突，是為了引發叛亂法案，這樣他就可以派軍隊到美國街頭。

And I think that that's why they are so terrified of the people that are coming out into the streets.

我認為這就是為什麼他們如此害怕走上街頭的人們。

That's why they're so terrified of the movement that is pushing back.

這就是為什麼他們如此害怕正在反擊的運動。

Remember, in the first Trump term, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people came out all around the world and they stopped the policy.

記得，在川普的第一個任期，有數十萬，甚至數百萬人在世界各地走上街頭，他們阻止了這項政策。

It wasn't even an English speaking Pope from Chicago like we have now who was pushing back, who was also spoke, spoken out about this.

這甚至不是像我們現在這樣來自芝加哥、講英語的教宗，他也在反擊，他也對此發聲了。

And now I think that the movement that you are seeing is the scariest thing possible for the Trump administration because they are realizing that this plan.

而我認為，你們現在看到的這場運動，對川普政府來說是最可怕的事情，因為他們意識到這個計畫。

I stood on the floor of the Republican convention with the signs mass deportation now.

我曾在共和黨全國代表大會的現場，舉著「立即大規模驅逐」的標語。

Yeah, no one can think that this is a surprise.

是的，沒人會認為這是個意外。

No mass deportation printed up signs distributed throughout the entire convention center.

「立即大規模驅逐」的標語被印製出來，並在整個會議中心散發。

But I don't think that they ever thought that the I think that they thought that people would want to know less, that people would walk away after the first Trump term and the Biden administration.

但我不認為他們曾經想過，我認為他們覺得人們會比較不想知道，人們會在川普的第一個任期和拜登政府之後就離開。

看看他們現在的出現方式，真是太厲害了。

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雅各布·索博羅夫怒批 ICE 的行為：簡直太壞了！涉及明尼蘇達、加州等地！ ("Frankly, It's Depraved" - Jacob Soboroff On ICE's Actions In Minnesota, California And Elsewhere)

extraordinary

incredibly

term

realize