Name: 沙特阿拉伯、卡達、阿聯酋等 21 個穆斯林國家譴責以色列襲擊伊朗 | DW News (21 Muslim countries including Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE condemn Israeli strikes on Iran | DW News)
Uploaded: 2025-06-18T17:26:51.000Z
Duration: 8 min 51 s

程度副詞

I'm very pleased to welcome now Sultan Barakat.

我非常高興地歡迎巴拉卡特蘇丹。

He's Professor of Public Policy at the Qatar Foundation's Hamad Bin Khalifa University and an Honorary Professor at the University of York in the UK.

他是卡達基金會哈馬德-本-哈利法大學公共政策教授和英國約克大學名譽教授。

If we could start with Iran's immediate neighbours, Turkey has been very vocal criticising Israel's actions.

如果我們可以從伊朗的近鄰說起，土耳其一直對以色列的行動大加責備。

Pakistan too has condemned the Israeli strikes on Iran.

巴基斯坦也譴責以色列對伊朗的襲擊。

To what extent does this conflict pose a threat to the region's security?

這場衝突在多大程度上威脅了該地區的安全？

I think it does risk spiralling into a serious conflict, not just for the region but beyond the region.

我認為，這確實有可能演變成一場嚴重的衝突，不僅對本地區，而且對本地區以外的地區都是如此。

Within the region of course Pakistan is most concerned at the moment because Netanyahu has always threatened and has always warned against not just the new potential nuclear program in Iran but also about Pakistan owning a nuclear weapon.

在該地區，巴基斯坦目前當然最為擔憂，因為內塔尼亞胡一直威脅並警告說，不僅伊朗可能會有新的核計劃，巴基斯坦也可能會擁有核武器。

And now with his close relationship with India it is not inconceivable that he's also plotting to undermine Pakistan and its nuclear program at some stage.

現在他與印度關係密切，不難想象他也在密謀在某個階段破壞巴基斯坦及其核計劃。

So they have a direct issue to worry about.

是以，他們有一個直接的問題需要擔心。

The rest of the countries probably less so but they are equally concerned, particularly those where there is an American presence.

其他國家可能不那麼關心，但它們也同樣關心，特別是那些有美國駐軍的國家。

If the United States changes its position from being a covert supporter to the Israeli attack to being an explicit partner in the attack, obviously all its assets in the region and they're talking about maybe 40,000 US soldiers will become legitimate targets for Iran and that will draw in particularly the Gulf States into the conflict and most immediately I think Iraq.

如果美國改變立場，從暗中支持以色列發動襲擊變為明確的襲擊夥伴，那麼顯然美國在該地區的所有資產--他們正在談論可能有 4 萬名美國士兵--都將成為伊朗的合法目標，這將吸引海灣國家尤其是伊拉克捲入衝突。

The population in Iraq is some, almost half, is very sympathetic with the Iranians and they will probably take action or be more willing to take action than any other population in the in the Arabian Gulf.

伊拉克的一些人，幾乎有一半，非常同情伊朗人，他們可能會採取行動，或者比阿拉伯灣內的任何其他人更願意採取行動。

Also it has had already an impact on Ukraine.

此外，它還對烏克蘭產生了影響。

You know the fact that Trump left the G7 abruptly has not been ideal from Ukraine's perspective and its immediate concerns.

要知道，從烏克蘭的角度及其當下的擔憂來看，特朗普突然離開 G7 並不理想。

A lot of weapons have already been diverted from the Ukraine war to support Israel.

大量武器已經從烏克蘭戰爭中被轉用於支持以色列。

And finally I think it has an impact on the way the global South perceives the hypocrisy of the North and the Western countries.

最後，我認為這對全球南方如何看待北方和西方國家的虛偽產生了影響。

For example the German Chancellor, for him to say that Israel does the dirty work on our behalf is quite problematic because he's admitting that this is dirty work.

例如，德國總理說以色列替我們幹髒活，這就很成問題，因為他承認這是髒活。

It's not legitimate, it's not in line with international law, but he's willing to condone it and he's willing to go along with it.

這不合法，不符合國際法，但他願意縱容，願意配合。

And as you can see this coming up on the back of what has been witnessed of genocide in Gaza for the last two years would make it much more difficult for the rest of the world to ballot the positioning by the West.

正如你所看到的，在過去兩年加沙發生種族滅絕事件的背景下，這將使世界其他國家更難對西方的定位進行投票。

And of course from Netanyahu's perspective what we're trying to now, what we're finding out more and more at the moment is that in fact from day one his objective has been regime change rather than simply undermining the nuclear program.

當然，從內塔尼亞胡的角度來看，我們現在正試圖發現，事實上從第一天起，他的目標就是政權更迭，而不僅僅是破壞核計劃。

And given the degree to which he's been able to penetrate the Iranian intelligence, it is not inconceivable that he has already laid the ground for a very sophisticated infrastructure for regime change, which also the former, the for the Iranian people to rise against the government.

鑑於他對伊朗情報部門的滲透程度，不難想象他已經為政權更迭奠定了非常複雜的基礎，這也是前者，即伊朗人民起來反抗政府。

I wanted to ask you actually about the people in Iran, just on what you were saying there.

我想問你關於伊朗人民的問題，就像你在那裡說的那樣。

We understand that there are of course many Iranians who are against the Iranian regime, but right now they are coming under Israeli fire.

我們知道，當然有許多伊朗人反對伊朗政權，但現在他們正遭到以色列的炮火襲擊。

Can you tell us how people in Iran are viewing what's happening in their country?

你能告訴我們伊朗人民如何看待他們國家發生的事情嗎？

I mean as you'd expect maybe at the beginning of the revolution Iranian people were broadly supportive of what the revolution brought to them.

我的意思是，正如你所期望的那樣，也許在革命之初，伊朗人民普遍支持革命給他們帶來的一切。

You know a little bit of equity, freedom, etc. that they did not enjoy under the Shah's regime.

要知道，在沙赫政權下，他們是享受不到一點公平、自由等待遇的。

But the problem has been that this revolution got stuck into a revolutionally mood for decades and they came under sanctions after sanctions and so on.

但問題是，這場革命陷入了幾十年的革命情緒，他們受到了一次又一次的制裁。

And I think for a lot of people they see the revolution having lost its way, particularly in the last two decades after the fall of the regime in Iraq.

我認為，在很多人看來，革命已經迷失了方向，尤其是在伊拉克政權垮臺後的二十年裡。

They saw that as an opportunity to expand within the region and they got themselves involved into conflicts that they should not really have bothered about.

他們認為這是在該地區擴張的機會，於是把自己捲入了本不應該捲入的衝突。

They should have given the priority for their own people, conflicts in Iraq and Syria and Yemen and Lebanon and so on.

他們本應優先考慮本國人民，伊拉克、敘利亞、葉門和黎巴嫩等地的衝突。

So that for a lot of people I think is an issue and they would like to see an end of that and somehow practically this is coming to an end at the moment anyway.

是以，我認為這對很多人來說都是一個問題，他們希望看到這種情況的結束，而不管怎麼說，實際上這種情況目前正在結束。

The second issue I think is the support of the regime to the Palestinians.

我認為第二個問題是該政權對巴勒斯坦人的支持。

I think the majority of the population in Iran is supportive of the Palestinians and they see and they understand the agenda of the Israelis of isolating the Palestinians from any external support, which they've been successful in terms of the Arab states.

我認為伊朗的大多數人都支持巴勒斯坦人，他們看到並理解以色列人孤立巴勒斯坦人、使其得不到任何外部支持的計劃，他們在阿拉伯國家方面已經取得了成功。

They've managed literally to isolate them from all the Arab states.

他們已經成功地將他們與所有阿拉伯國家隔離開來。

The only country that stands by them at the moment is Iran.

目前唯一支持他們的國家是伊朗。

And I think the last is the issue of the suppression on the ground that the regime, right from the beginning of the Arab Spring, there were some movements in protest against the heavy-handed approach of the regime in the streets.

我認為最後一個問題是實地鎮壓問題，從 "阿拉伯之春 "一開始，就出現了一些抗議該政權在街頭採取高壓手段的運動。

但我認為，隨著時間的推移，這種情況已經消失了。

Now there's a risk of it reigniting again.

So I don't think it's very that the population is with or against.

是以，我認為這並不是民眾支持或反對的問題。

The longer this attack continues, particularly with it coming from Israel, it will actually solidify the communities on the ground, particularly in rural areas, particularly outside the cities around the regime.

這種攻擊持續的時間越長，特別是來自以色列的攻擊，實際上就會鞏固當地的社區，特別是在農村地區，尤其是在政權周圍的城市之外。

Okay, you talked about Gaza earlier and I did just want to mention that of course Israel is saying it is doing this in self-defense.

好吧，你剛才談到了加沙，我只是想提一下，以色列當然說它這樣做是為了自衛。

It of course rejects the claim of genocide and says it's doing it to protect its own people.

當然，它拒絕接受種族滅絕的說法，並說它這樣做是為了保護自己的人民。

Of course the suffering in Gaza is immeasurable and the war is continuing.

當然，加沙的苦難無法估量，戰爭仍在繼續。

Does this new Israeli-Iranian conflict mean that Gaza is being forgotten right now?

以色列和伊朗的新衝突是否意味著加沙現在被遺忘了？

The attention has been diverted from Gaza, similar to what happened last autumn when Netanyahu decided to attack Hezbollah.

人們的注意力已經從加沙轉移，這與去年秋天內塔尼亞胡決定攻擊真主黨時的情況類似。

And when he decided to trigger those pagers to explode 4,500 bomblets across Lebanon, regardless of who is holding that pager and who's standing by him or whether he was on an aircraft, whatever, he has undertaken a systematic, I think, act of terrorism in Lebanon to divert attention.

當他決定啟動這些傳呼機，在黎巴嫩各地引爆 4500 枚炸彈時，不管誰拿著傳呼機，不管誰站在他身邊，也不管他是否在飛機上，不管是什麼，我認為他在黎巴嫩採取了有計劃的恐怖主義行動，以轉移人們的注意力。

And he was successful at the time to divert attention.

他當時成功地轉移了人們的注意力。

At the moment, he's under a lot of criticism, particularly on the humanitarian condition of the Palestinians in Gaza.

目前，他受到了很多責備，尤其是在加沙巴勒斯坦人的人道主義狀況方面。

This new agency that he set up, the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, in support of the United States, has shown its real colors and is rejected by the international community.

他在美國支持下成立的這個新機構--加沙人道主義基金會--已經露出了真面目，遭到了國際社會的唾棄。

And you can see on a daily basis people are being slaughtered while they're being given the very minimum of food.

你可以看到，每天都有人被屠殺，而他們卻只能得到最起碼的食物。

He is now exposed, and he has so ensured another opportunity to divert.

他現在暴露了，他這樣做確保了又一次轉移視線的機會。

And this is how I think the timing of this operation has been selected.

我認為，這次行動的時機就是這樣選定的。

Whether he's done it with the approval of Trump or not, it doesn't really matter.

至於他這樣做是否得到了特朗普的準許，其實並不重要。

I think this, when it comes to Israel, the decision goes beyond the President of the United States.

我認為，在以色列問題上，決定權不在美國總統。

This is a deep state decision within the United States.

這是美國內部深層國家的決定。

And at best, Trump can put on a brave face at the moment and pretend as if he knew all about it, that he's been part of this, and it is his decision to go to war with Iran.

而充其量，特朗普此刻可以裝出一副勇敢的樣子，假裝他對這一切都瞭如指掌，假裝他也參與其中，是他決定與伊朗開戰的。

But I think it goes way deeper than this.

And the Israelis, particularly the Netanyahu, understand this extremely well.

以色列人，尤其是內塔尼亞胡，對此非常瞭解。

Sultan Barakat, professor at the Qatar Foundation's Hamad bin Khalifa University.

蘇丹-巴拉卡特（Sultan Barakat），卡達基金會哈馬德-本-哈利法大學教授。