Name: 【深夜書友會】《我們所知道的》作者伊恩·麥克伊wan 暢談！ (Late Show Book Club with “What We Can Know” Author Ian McEwan)
Uploaded: 2025-11-27T16:57:31.000Z
Duration: 12 min 33 s

I'm ian mckeon, I come from london and I'm a british novelist.

我是 ian mckeon，我來自 london，是個英國的小說家。

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You are one of the most celebrated and critically acclaimed writers of our time.

你是我們這個時代最受讚譽、廣受好評的作家之一。

You are the author of 19 novels and two short story collections.

你是 19 本小說和兩本短篇故事集的作者。

And today you are here to talk about your latest novel, what We Can Know.

今天你來是要聊聊你的最新小說，書名是 what We Can Know。

As the book goes on, you start thinking, can we really know anything?

隨著書的進行，你會開始思考，我們真的知道任何事嗎？

這個書名對你來說意味著什麼？

What we can know about the past, what we can know about the future, and

關於過去我們能知道什麼，關於未來我們能知道什麼，以及

what we can know about each other and how difficult it is sometimes to break through, even to the person closest to you.

關於彼此我們能知道什麼，以及有時候即使是對最親近的人，要突破有多難。

So it's a dialogue with history, with futurology, the future of love, the future of history.

所以這是一場與歷史、與未來學、與愛情的未來、與歷史的未來的對話。

In some senses, it's, I guess, a science fiction novel without the science.

在某些方面，我想，這是一部沒有科幻元素的科幻小說。

I'm interested in all those things that science fiction don't look into, like what's the future of universities, humanities, intellectual life, artistic life, but

我對科幻小說不關注的所有事物都感興趣，像是大學的未來、人文學科、知識分子的生活、藝術生活，但

also love, betrayal, changing circumstances through time, and

也包括愛情、背叛、隨著時間改變的環境，以及

getting the present and past and future all into some kind of dialogue with each other.

讓現在、過去和未來彼此對話。

How did you choose 21, 1990, four years from now, as the amount of time in the future you wanted to set this story?

你為什麼選擇 21 世紀 90 年代，也就是四年後，作為你想要設定故事的未來時間長度？

then a very good friend of mine, who's one of my first readers, on his first reading of an early draft, said, I think 400 years is too long.

我一位非常好的朋友，他是我最早的讀者之一，在他第一次閱讀早期草稿時說，我認為 400 年太長了。

You're writing in the same language, although you've got all kinds of explanations of why language hasn't changed much.

你是用相同的語言寫作，儘管你對語言為何變化不大的部分，都有各種解釋。

It would be so much more alive if it was a future that we could almost reach out and touch.

如果是一個我們幾乎可以伸手觸及的未來，那會更有生命力。

And I used to, as a young writer, not take notes very easily from other readers early on.

而我以前，作為一個年輕的作家，早期不太容易從其他讀者那裡獲得筆記。

And I've come round to the view that you know a good note the moment you hear it.

現在我轉變觀念，認為你一聽到好的筆記，立刻就能認出來。

他一說出口，我就鬆了一口氣。

What was it like to imagine the future that you describe in this book?

想像你這本書裡描述的未來，感覺怎麼樣？

And what sort of research did you do to imagine this fate?

你做了哪些研究來想像這個命運？

Well, I'll answer the second question first.

I used to do a lot of research for my novels, and

I feel that my head is so stuffed with stuff that I try to treat it like a garden.

我覺得我的腦袋裡塞滿了東西，我試著把它當成花園來處理。

And I prefer to go down there, those garden paths into my own mind and my own memories.

我比較喜歡走進去，走進那些花園小徑，進入我自己的思緒和回憶裡。

As researcher, I didn't research a thing for this.

作為研究者，我這次沒有做任何研究。

Your Character Tom and his pursuit of this lost poem makes me think, what is the importance of art when the world is burning?

你書中的角色湯姆和他追尋那首失傳的詩，讓我想，當世界燃燒時，藝術的重要性是什麼？

Well, I've passed the point of thinking that climate change fiction can warn people because it's, it's already happening, we're in it, we don't need to be warned.

嗯，我已經過了認為氣候變遷小說能警告人們的階段，因為它已經發生了，我們就在其中，不需要被警告。

So the function of art, one element of that is to render pleasure to us, aesthetic pleasure, and

所以藝術的功能，其中一個元素是給我們帶來愉悅，審美的愉悅，

I'm talking particularly of literature here, of trying to understand where we are, what we are, who we are, what it's like to be a man or woman in a city in all the conditions of modern life, to reflect back on us, what we are.

我在這裡特別指的是文學，試圖理解我們身在何處、我們是誰、我們是什麼樣的人，以及在現代生活的各種條件下，在城市裡作為男人或女人是什麼感覺，來映照出我們是誰。

And that's really why I thought that having someone writing about us from the future who half envies us, half despises us for all our mistakes would be another way of carrying on that discussion that I think literature is, is always having with itself and with its readers.

這也是我認為，讓一位來自未來、對我們的種種錯誤既羨慕又鄙視的人來書寫我們，是延續文學與其讀者之間、文學與自身之間不斷進行的討論的另一種方式。

Or are we about to interfere with human nature by bioforming?

還是我們即將透過生物改造來幹預人性？

所以，是的，我會把它放在那裡。

But pleasure has to be a strong element in this.

但愉悅感必須是其中一個重要元素。

The concept of a lost poem that has achieved this myth like quality, so much so that a scholar wants to track it down 100 years later, is for any lover of the written word, so romantic.

一首失傳的詩，竟然達到了神話般的品質，以至於一位學者在一百年後仍想追尋它，這個概念對任何熱愛文字的人來說，都太浪漫了。

Was there a real poem that inspired this?

It was written, it was published about four years ago.

It's by John Fuller, an English poet now in his 80s.

作者是 John Fuller，一位現年八十多歲的英國詩人。

And I should just explain that this is called a corona.

我應該解釋一下，這叫做 corona。

It's got nothing to do with the pandemic.

It is basically Renaissance or Rococo form.

它基本上是文藝復興或洛可可的詩體。

The last line of each sonnet has to be the first line of the next.

每首十四行詩的最後一句必須是下一首的開頭。

The 15th sonnet is the corona, the crown.

第十五首十四行詩就是 corona，也就是皇冠。

這是一個真正的難題，它必須。

It consists of the first line of all the preceding 14 sonnets.

它包含前面所有十四行詩的第一句。

And a corona, traditionally is spoken or addresses one particular person, a loved one, perhaps.

而 corona，傳統上是針對某一個人說話或稱呼，或許是一位摯愛。

And Fuller's poem was published and I read it and I was astonished by its beauty, how relaxed it was with all these rules.

而 Fuller 的詩出版後，我讀了它，我對它的美麗感到驚訝，它對所有這些規則有多麼從容。

I didn't guess for a minute when I read this poem that I was going to write a novel about this poem, but

當我讀這首詩時，我從沒想過我會寫一本關於這首詩的小說，但是

it, it bit hard into my thoughts and feelings.

它，它深深地侵入了我的想法和感受。

And two years later I was fully engaged with just such a poem that gets lost.

兩年後，我完全投入於這樣一首被遺忘的詩。

Maybe I think a lost poem, like a poem as good as this, that got lost would be a terrible tragedy, as it were, and

也許我認為一首失傳的詩，像這樣好的詩卻失傳了，這將是一場可怕的悲劇，可以說，

Along the way, I wrote just the odd few lines of this imaginary poem, and

在這個過程中，我為這首想像中的詩寫了零星的幾行，

And when I gave it to one of my close readers, early readers, he loved the novel, he said, but

當我把它交給一位親近的讀者，早期讀者時，他說他喜歡這本小說，

So I thought, well, that's such a good note.

所以我想，嗯，這真是個好建議。

And it would put the reader in the same position as all of us, including myself.

這會讓讀者處於和我們所有人，包括我自己一樣的位置。

If you knew you were going to be teleported to a dystopian future where access to books is limited, but

如果你知道自己將被傳送到一個書籍取得受限的反烏託邦未來，但是

you know you can bring one book with you, right?

你知道你可以帶一本書去，對吧？

And I'm not allowed a 40 set encyclopedia, I guess I probably would take James Joyce's Ulysses because I'm always dipping into it with such pleasure.

我猜我可能會帶詹姆斯·喬伊斯（James Joyce）的《尤利西斯》（Ulysses），因為我一直很享受地翻閱它。

The beautiful rhythm of the prose, the strange division of its sections, the wonderful soliloquy of Molly Bloom at the end of it, and

散文優美的節奏、奇特的章節劃分、結尾莫莉·布魯姆（Molly Bloom）精彩的獨白，

I know quite a few fellow writers who treat it almost as a Bible.

我認識不少作家朋友，他們幾乎把這本書當聖經一樣看待。

I see that quite a few people I know just keep it on their desk.

我看到不少我認識的人就把它放在書桌上。

So I think that would be a colossal comfort to me to have that.

所以我想那會給我巨大的安慰。

He changed our minds about what the novel could do.

他改變了我們對小說能做什麼的看法。

He brought us into some understanding of how we might represent the flow of consciousness.

他讓我們對如何描繪意識流有了些許理解。

And also he was revolutionary too, because he, he could write about children so well, as well as Dickens, as well as Jane Austen, if not better.

而且他也很革命，因為他寫小孩寫得很好，跟狄更斯、珍·奧斯汀一樣好，甚至更好。

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【深夜書友會】《我們所知道的》作者伊恩·麥克伊wan 暢談！ (Late Show Book Club with “What We Can Know” Author Ian McEwan)

process

treat

sense

interfere