Name: 間諜是如何煉成的，而不是天生的 | 安德魯-布斯塔曼特：訪談全文 (How spies are built, not born | Andrew Bustamante: Full Interview)
Uploaded: 2025-07-18T19:13:36.000Z
Duration: 1 h 3 min 41 s

My name is Andrew Bustamante, and I am a former covert CIA intelligence officer and the founder of EverydaySpy.com.

我叫安德魯-布斯塔曼特（Andrew Bustamante），是前中情局祕密情報人員，也是 EverydaySpy.com 的創始人。

How to Think Like a Spy with Andrew Bustamante

與安德魯-布斯塔曼特一起如何像間諜一樣思考

What do people get wrong about being a spy?

The public really doesn't realize that they are much closer to CIA spies than they think they are.

公眾真的沒有意識到，他們與中情局間諜的距離比他們想象的要近得多。

One of the things that movies get wrong is that they make CIA spies look like they're some kind of superhuman or superhero right from the day they were born.

電影弄錯的一點是，它們把中情局間諜拍得好像他們從出生那天起就是某種超人或超級英雄。

When in fact, spies are built, they're not born.

事實上，間諜是培養出來的，而不是天生的。

One of the most famous spy series of all time actually gets it wrong, and that's the James Bond series.

有史以來最有名的間諜系列之一其實是搞錯了，那就是詹姆斯-邦德系列。

Here you see this beautiful man, and he's always attractive, he's always well-spoken, he's always an amazing driver, an amazing fighter, an amazing shot.

在這裡，你會看到這個漂亮的男人，他總是那麼有魅力，他總是那麼能說會道，他總是一個了不起的司機，一個了不起的戰士，一個了不起的射手。

He's great with the women, and somehow he's able to operate all over the world by calling himself by his true name, James Bond.

他和女人相處得很好，而且不知何故，他能用自己的真名詹姆斯-邦德（James Bond）在世界各地活動。

This is not what espionage is like. Real espionage is about people who blend in.

間諜活動不是這樣的。真正的諜報人員都是混在人群中的。

People who aren't attractive, people who don't get a second look, people who are terrible with women, people who never drive a fancy car, people who never have to pull out their gun.

沒有吸引力的人，得不到第二眼的人，女人緣很差的人，從不開名車的人，從不需要掏槍的人。

Because they're so good at keeping a secret, they can get in and get out without ever even being noticed in the first place.

因為他們非常善於保密，所以他們可以在不被人發現的情況下進去，又在不被人發現的情況下出來。

International espionage requires a wide range of different types of look and appearance.

國際間諜活動需要各種不同類型的外觀和外表。

You can't necessarily say that one person would always be good at espionage and one person would always be bad.

你不能說一個人永遠擅長間諜活動，一個人永遠不擅長。

Instead, there's really a place for people who look all different types.

相反，這裡確實有一個適合各種類型的人的地方。

There's a place for the very young and the very old. There's a place for the very fit and the very unfit.

這裡有非常年輕和非常年老的人。非常健康的人和非常不健康的人都有一席之地。

There's a place for tall people, short people, there's even room for people who have different religious beliefs that require them to wear different types of physical dress.

高個子、矮個子都有一席之地，甚至那些有不同宗教信仰、需要穿著不同體型服飾的人也有一席之地。

But when it comes to the one type of person that has the most operational utility, you're looking for somebody who is brown but not too dark, somebody who is thin but not too thin, somebody who is middle-aged, because that's exactly the kind of person that disappears no matter where they go.

但說到最有實用價值的一種人，你要找的是褐而不黑，瘦而不柴，人到中年的人，因為這種人無論走到哪裡都會消失。

Whether they're in Asia or Latin America, whether they're in Canada or Australia, they're overlooked, they're not worth paying attention to, they're not the kind of person you remember bumping into when you're standing in line at a local coffee shop.

無論他們在亞洲還是拉丁美洲，無論他們在加拿大還是澳洲，他們都被忽視了，他們不值得關注，他們不是你記憶中在當地咖啡店排隊時偶遇的那種人。

And that's exactly the kind of gray man that CIA, MI6, and Mossad really look for when they develop a new high-performance field operative.

而這正是中情局、軍情六處和摩薩德在培養新的高性能外勤特工時真正需要的灰色人種。

A good covert operator is born with a certain series of skills.

一個優秀的祕密特工與生俱來就具備一系列技能。

They are very good at thinking on their feet, they're creative, they're adaptable, they're resilient and resourceful.

他們善於獨立思考，富有創造力，適應能力強，復原能力強，足智多謀。

They're also able to blend in and disappear. These are not people who want to be the center of attention.

他們還能融入人群，消失不見。這些人並不想成為眾人矚目的焦點。

These are people who want to be in the background, they want to be forgotten, they want to be ignored.

這些人希望成為背景，希望被遺忘，希望被忽視。

They're the wallflowers at your school prom.

They're the kids who sit in the second to last row, because if they sat in the last row of the school bus, they would be noticed.

他們是坐在倒數第二排的孩子，因為如果他們坐在校車的最後一排，就會引起注意。

The people who turn into very good spies are the people who enjoy the comfort of anonymity.

能夠成為優秀間諜的人，都是那些喜歡隱姓埋名的人。

It's the exact opposite of what you see in so much of media.

這與你在媒體上看到的情況完全相反。

Now, when an intelligence service gets a hold of this person who values anonymity, then they have this rich, fertile soil to teach them a whole slew of skills, from hacking skills, to tradecraft skills, to alias disguise, to foreign language.

現在，當情報部門掌握了這個重視匿名的人，他們就有了這片肥沃的土壤，可以教給他們從黑客技術、交易技巧、化名偽裝到外語等一系列技能。

And they can put and invest these skills into somebody, knowing that that person will never show off or brag about their skills.

他們可以把這些技能投入到某個人身上，因為他們知道這個人永遠不會炫耀或吹噓自己的技能。

Instead, they're going to use those advanced skills to make themselves even more invisible in front of everybody else.

相反，他們會利用這些先進的技能，讓自己在其他人面前更加隱形。

One of the most interesting questions I get from people is, what is the one most important character trait to be a good spy?

我從人們那裡得到的最有趣的問題之一是，要成為一名優秀的間諜，最重要的性格特徵是什麼？

And I find this question to be really interesting because it's a shocking answer, in my opinion.

我覺得這個問題非常有趣，因為在我看來，這是一個令人震驚的答案。

The most important thing CIA or Mossad or MI6 looks for when they make a possible new spy is somebody who seeks validation from an external source.

中情局、摩薩德或軍情六處在挑選新間諜時，最重要的一點就是要找一個能從外部來源尋求驗證的人。

They're looking for somebody who is so loyal and so dependent on external validation that they will lie, steal, cheat, commit crimes, cross borders, change their name, do anything they have to do in order to get validation and approval from that one focused external source.

他們要找的是一個如此忠誠、如此依賴外部認可的人，以至於他們會撒謊、偷竊、欺騙、犯罪、越境、改名換姓，做任何他們必須做的事情，以便從那個專注的外部來源獲得認可和準許。

And when CIA finds a person like that, they can train that person to become dependent on CIA.

中情局找到這樣的人後，就可以訓練他依賴中情局。

And then the loyalty of that individual becomes so focused on the institution that they don't need any other attention from anywhere else, as long as they serve the one organization that validates and appreciates their work.

這樣一來，個人的忠誠度就會變得如此專注於這個機構，以至於他們不需要其他任何地方的關注，只要他們服務的這個機構認可並欣賞他們的工作就可以了。

What is the process for becoming a CIA operative?

成為中情局特工的程序是什麼？

When you think about the process for applying and interviewing to CIA, you have to take every application you've ever made from the military to a job and throw it out the window.

當你想到向中央情報局申請和麵試的過程時，你必須把你從軍隊到工作的所有申請都拋到九霄雲外。

Because the average application and interview process for CIA takes about 18 months.

因為中央情報局的申請和麵試過程平均需要 18 個月。

In fact, if you're a very qualified, high performing candidate, the best you can do is about nine months.

事實上，如果你是一個非常合格、表現出色的候選人，最好的情況也不過是九個月左右。

My own application process took about 11 months.

我自己的申請過程大約花了 11 個月。

And over the course of that time, you are exposed to more and more intrusive, personal and high stakes interview styles.

在這段時間裡，你會接觸到越來越多的侵擾性、個人化和高風險的面試方式。

Sometimes you're doing role plays, sometimes you're taking psychological batteries that take multiple hours.

有時你要進行角色扮演，有時你要進行耗時數小時的心理測試。

Sometimes you're doing group or panelist interviews where you're being peppered by a panel of people that you've never talked to before.

有時，你要接受小組或專題討論小組的採訪，你會被一群你從未交談過的人圍住。

And that's not counting all the things they're doing behind the scenes, pulling your digital footprint, looking at your police background, looking at your personal finances, looking and reviewing your health history and your family history.

這還不算他們在幕後所做的一切，比如調取你的數字足跡、查看你的警方背景、查看你的個人財務狀況、查看並審查你的健康史和家族史。

There's an incredible amount of activity that goes into identifying the right kind of people that can be trusted to carry out a secret mission somewhere else in the world on behalf of the U.S. federal government.

要確定什麼樣的人才能被信任，代表美國聯邦政府在世界其他地方執行祕密任務，這其中的工作量大得驚人。

The reason CIA uses this escalation of intrusive interview styles is for two reasons.

中央情報局之所以使用這種升級版的侵擾性訪談方式，有兩個原因。

One, they're looking to identify the specific soft skills that exist in the right candidate, the person who can think on their feet, the person who's resilient, the person who is creative.

其一，他們正在尋找合適人選的具體軟技能，即能夠獨立思考的人，有韌性的人，有創造力的人。

But then simultaneously, they're also looking for the person who's unwilling to share certain secrets about themselves.

但同時，他們也在尋找不願意分享自己某些祕密的人。

Where's the person that's too private to share secrets about the affair they had with their spouse?

那些私下不願透露與配偶外遇祕密的人在哪裡？

Or where's the person that's keeping so many secrets they're afraid to talk about the fact that they're broke or even in debt in their credit cards?

或者說，那個保守著太多祕密，不敢談論自己破產甚至欠下信用卡債務的人在哪裡？

Where's the person who's not willing to talk about their child abuse?

不願意談論自己虐童經歷的人在哪裡？

Where's the person who's unwilling to share a secret about cheating on an exam in college?

那個不願意分享大學時考試作弊祕密的人在哪裡？

Because if somebody is willing to keep one secret during the interview process, you know you can't really trust that person to become loyal to the organization when they have to collect secrets of different types that relate to national security and national security policy.

因為如果一個人在面試過程中願意保守一個祕密，那麼當他必須收集與國家安全和國家安全政策有關的不同類型的祕密時，你就不可能真正相信這個人會對組織忠誠。

I often joke that I was the accidental recruit to CIA because I was not a great college student.

我經常開玩笑說，我是中情局的意外新人，因為我不是一個優秀的大學生。

I came from the military, but I was not a good soldier.

我來自軍隊，但我不是一個好阿兵哥。

I really don't understand even now to this day why it was that CIA took such an interest in me when they did.

直到現在我也不明白，為什麼中情局會對我如此感興趣。

But my process was one of the most fun processes I've had in my entire life.

但我的過程是我一生中最有趣的過程之一。

As an Air Force officer, I was in command of nuclear missiles, which meant I was one of the people sitting underground pointing missiles all over the world knowing that if I turned my key, I would end human life in some place.

作為一名空軍軍官，我負責指揮核導彈，這意味著我是坐在地下將飛彈指向全世界的人之一，我知道只要我轉動鑰匙，就會在某個地方結束人類的生命。

So when the time came for me to leave the Air Force,

I wanted to do something that was the polar opposite of nuclear missiles.

我想做的事情與核導彈截然相反。

So I found myself applying to the U.S. Peace Corps.

於是，我開始申請加入美國和平隊。

And it was during that application process to the Peace Corps that my resume was actually flagged online for national security.

正是在申請和平隊的過程中，我的履歷在網上被標記為 "國家安全"。

And in the middle of my application to Peace Corps,

I actually had a screen pop up on my computer that said, based on my answers to date in my application,

實際上，我的電腦上彈出了一個螢幕，上面寫著：根據我迄今為止在申請表中的回答、

I might qualify for other jobs in the national security sector.

我可能有資格從事國家安全部門的其他工作。

Would I be willing to put my application on pause?

And like any other 27-year-old, when I heard that there might be an opportunity for me to do something else,

和其他 27 歲的年輕人一樣，當我聽說可能有機會做別的事情時、

I hit yes. And I said, yes, I am willing to put my application on hold for 72 hours to see what comes of this.

我點擊了 "是"。我說，是的，我願意把我的申請擱置 72 小時，看看會有什麼結果。

And that's when I got a phone call one day later from a woman who didn't tell me her last name and came from an unlisted phone number with a 703 area code, which is Langley, Virginia.

就在那時，一天後我接到了一個電話，是一個女人打來的，她沒有告訴我她姓什麼，是一個未登記的電話號碼，區號是 703，也就是弗吉尼亞州蘭利。

And she invited me to Washington, D.C. to go through an application process that would vet me for a possible role in national security.

她邀請我去華盛頓特區參加一個申請程序，審查我是否有可能在國家安全領域發揮作用。

I didn't know at the time that I was being vetted for CIA.

當時我並不知道自己正在接受中情局的審查。

I got a set of plane tickets in the mail.

I had a rental car sent to me in the mail.

I was only given enough information to make it another day, where my next hotel would be, where my next appointment would be.

我得到的資訊只夠再撐一天，下一個旅館在哪裡，下一個約會在哪裡。

And that's kind of how I was carried along for the better part of 10 months as I went through test after test and interview after interview where I was applying for and escalating through the process of becoming a CIA operative.

就這樣，在長達 10 個月的時間裡，我經歷了一次又一次的測試、一次又一次的面試，不斷申請成為一名中情局特工。

What did you learn while becoming a CIA operative?

在成為中情局特工的過程中，你學到了什麼？

When I actually started training with CIA,

當我真正開始接受中情局的培訓時、

I started to have a series of self-discoveries.

我開始有了一系列的自我發現。

First, I started to discover that many of the things that I suspected my whole life, many of the things that caused me frustration and disappointment with society were actually very viable things that CIA taught me to understand later on.

首先，我開始發現，許多我懷疑了一輩子的事情，許多讓我對社會感到沮喪和失望的事情，其實都是非常可行的，是中情局教我後來才明白的。

It taught me to understand that there really isn't a sense of fairness or transparency or honesty that human beings carry from place to place.

它讓我明白，人與人之間真的沒有公平感、透明度或誠實感。

It doesn't exist in the professional workplace.

職業工作場所不存在這種情況。

Even though everyone tries to say that there are standards of behavior and there are codes of conduct and there are social norms, in reality, all of those things are flexible.

儘管每個人都試圖說有行為標準、有行為準則、有社會規範，但實際上，所有這些東西都是靈活的。

So for me, growing up, it was always very challenging whenever I saw hypocrisy or whenever I saw people go against their word or people not fulfill their promises.

是以，對我來說，在成長過程中，每當我看到虛偽，每當我看到人們違背自己的諾言，每當我看到人們不履行自己的諾言，這總是非常具有挑戰性的。

I never understood how it was acceptable.

我一直不明白，這怎麼能被接受。

How is it that President Clinton could get on a stand and swear to tell the truth and then lie on the stand and yet somehow still become a popular president?

為什麼克林頓總統可以站在證人席上發誓說真話，然後又在證人席上撒謊，卻仍然能成為一位受歡迎的總統？

It never made sense to me how people accepted deceit and lies and trickery and abuse.

我一直不明白，人們是如何接受欺騙、謊言、詭計和虐待的。

But CIA taught me how the human brain worked and how it is that the human brain can accept those offenses and move forward with its own narrative, its own dialogue.

但中央情報局教會了我人腦是如何工作的，以及人腦是如何能夠接受這些冒犯，並繼續自己的敘述、自己的對話的。

Learning that during my process at CIA taught me not only how to understand other people, but also how to understand my own life, my own childhood trauma, my own relationship with my parents and my teachers and my professors and my peers.

在中央情報局的學習過程中，我不僅學會了如何理解他人，還學會了如何理解自己的生活、自己的童年創傷、自己與父母、老師、教授和同學之間的關係。

And understanding how I viewed the world and how the world viewed me gave me an incredible advantage that the CIA knew I needed in order to operate as a solo operator in the field.

瞭解了我如何看待這個世界以及這個世界如何看待我，這給了我一個難以置信的優勢，中情局知道我需要這樣的優勢，才能在戰場上獨當一面。

How does becoming a CIA agent impact your personal life?

成為中情局特工對你的個人生活有什麼影響？

One area that's very personal to me that CIA really helped me understand was the area of personal relationships.

對我來說，CIA 真正幫助我理解的一個非常私人的領域是人際關係。

When I was a child growing up in a house where my father had died early and my mom remarried multiple times, it was very difficult for me to maintain and really invest myself into personal relationships.

小時候，我在一個父親早逝、母親多次改嫁的家庭中長大，很難維持和真正投入到人際關係中。