Name: 法德引擎還在運轉嗎？| DW 新聞 (Is the Franco-German engine still running? | DW News)
Uploaded: 2026-02-16T17:21:51.000Z
Duration: 8 min 11 s

Benjamin Haddad is the delegate minister in charge of Europe in France.

Benjamin Haddad 是法國負責歐洲事務的代表部長。

And of course the French German engine is one of those key topics that are always being discussed in Munich.

而德法引擎當然是慕尼黑經常討論的關鍵議題之一。

And now with the discussion about European sovereignty getting more and more intense, it is more crucial than ever to discuss the nuts and bolts of the German French engine.

隨著歐洲主權的討論越來越激烈，探討德法引擎的核心要素比以往任何時候都更加關鍵。

So first of all, let's look at the Americans before we get to France and Germany.

所以，在談到法國和德國之前，我們先來看看美國人。

What did you make of the standing ovations here in Munich after Marco Rubio's speech?

您怎麼看 Marco Rubio 演講後，在慕尼黑這裡獲得的起立鼓掌？

You know, I think as Europeans we should not spend our time commenting on speeches that are made by the US and clinging to messages either of reassurance or love or whatever.

我覺得，作為歐洲人，我們不應該花時間評論美國人發表的演講，也不應該執著於保證、愛或任何其他訊息。

I think we should focus on what we can do for ourselves.

我認為我們應該專注於我們能為自己做些什麼。

This was really the main focus, by the way of these last three days at the Munich Security Conference.

順帶一提，這也是慕尼黑安全會議這三天來的重點。

How can we continue the rearmament of Europe in the face of the Russian threat and increase our cooperation on defense issues?

面對俄羅斯的威脅，我們如何繼續歐洲的重整軍備，並加強我們在國防事務上的合作？

How can we invest mass effectively into AI, into quantum, into green tech to reduce our dependencies and support our European champions?

我們要如何有效地投入大量資金在 AI、量子科技和綠色科技上，以減少我們的依賴並支持我們的歐洲領導者？

How can you really build a European power that's able to take ownership for its own security on the world stage?

我們要如何真正建立一個歐洲強權，讓它能在世界舞臺上為自己的安全負責？

Not looking outside, but really focusing on how we can take responsibility.

不是向外看，而是真正專注於我們如何承擔責任。

But how can we take responsibility is one of those things that the Europeans have said for a couple of years now.

但如何承擔責任，這也是歐洲人這幾年來一直在說的一件事。

So in very specific terms, what do you take away from this year's msc?

那麼具體來說，你從今年的慕尼黑安全會議學到了什麼？

Well, you know, I mean, if you look at just things we've done since last year, because I remember I was here last year as well and we were very worried that countries were going to give up on Ukraine, that maybe we were going to have a forced capitulation of Ukraine with the US and Russia negotiating a deal in 24 hours without the Europeans and the Ukrainians.

嗯，你知道，我的意思是，如果你看看我們自去年以來所做的事情，因為我記得我去年也來過這裡，我們非常擔心各國會放棄烏克蘭，擔心美國和俄羅斯會在 24 小時內協商出一項協議，迫使烏克蘭投降，而歐洲人和烏克蘭人卻被排除在外。

We built the coalition, the willing where we decided to bring European countries, but

我們建立了「有志一同」的聯盟，決定聯合歐洲國家，但

also like minded like the uk, Canada, Japan or Australia to provide security guarantees to Ukraine, but

也包括像英國、加拿大、日本或澳洲等理念相近的國家，為烏克蘭提供安全保證，但

also to continue the support for the Ukrainians.

Today the bulk of support for Ukraine is provided by Europe.

歐洲現在是烏克蘭最主要的支援者。

In December we agreed at the European Council on a loan of 90 billion euros for the economic and the military support for Ukraine to give them visibility in the next couple of years to continue to defend themselves against Russian aggression.

在十二月，我們在歐洲理事會上同意提供九百億歐元的貸款，用於烏克蘭的經濟和軍事支援，讓他們未來幾年都有能見度，可以繼續對抗俄羅斯的侵略。

We're negotiating the 20th package of sanctions to increase the pressure on the shadow fleet and the energy sector of Russia.

我們正在協商第二十輪制裁，以增加對俄羅斯影子船隊和能源業的壓力。

We're increasing our defense spending and cooperating to invest through the SAFE instrument 150 billion euros of the European Commission to build an autonomous European defence industry.

我們正增加國防開支，並透過歐洲執委會的SAFE工具合作投資一千五百億歐元，以建立自主的歐洲國防產業。

These are concrete things that have happened in the last year and the last few months.

這些都是過去一年和幾個月來具體發生的事情。

But now it's time to accelerate, to deepen our single market, to simplify our rules and to invest where we need with public and private money to support our innovators, our entrepreneurs in all these sectors that are critical for our national security.

但現在是時候加速、深化我們的單一市場、簡化規則，並在我們需要的地方投入公私資金，以支持我們在所有對國家安全至關重要的領域的創新者和企業家。

And support for Ukraine is something where, of course, Germany, as well as a society, has undergone a lot of changes since JD Vance's speech last year, where Germany then even changed its constitution to allow for more money to flow into defence and security.

當然，德國社會自從去年 JD Vance 發表演講以來，在支持烏克蘭這方面也經歷了很多轉變，德國甚至修改了憲法，以便將更多資金投入國防和安全。

Now, when you speak to German officials here behind the scenes, there's sort of a feeling that, yes, we are opening our coffers, we are changing our constitution, we are taking on risks.

現在，如果你在幕後跟德國官員聊聊，他們會感覺到，是的，我們正在打開錢包，我們正在修改憲法，我們正在承擔風險。

Yeah, so first, it's true what you said about Germany, and

沒錯，所以首先，你說的關於德國的部分是真的，而且

I think it's very important for Europe, it's very important for France.

我認為這對歐洲、對法國都非常重要。

We have other countries in Europe now that are increasing their defence spending and they're supporting Ukraine.

現在歐洲有其他國家也在增加國防開支，並且支持烏克蘭。

If you take France over the two terms of the Macron presidency, we doubled the defense budget of France just this year.

如果你看看馬克宏總統任內的法國，我們在今年就將法國的國防預算翻倍了。

And even when we're cutting spending in certain areas, we continue to increase our.

即使我們在某些領域削減開支，我們仍然會增加我們的。

And this has to be a generational effort.

And we also need to do it at a European level, because we know that we have a defence industry that is fragmented, where you have redundancies, where you have duplications.

我們也需要在歐洲層級上這麼做，因為我們知道歐洲的國防產業很零散，存在冗餘和重複。

We need more synergies, we need more common procurement to look at areas where today we depend from the United States and we need to invest in common, and

我們需要更多的協同作用，需要更多的聯合採購，來看看我們今天依賴美國的領域，我們需要共同投資，而且

we need to do it with a clear principle of European preference.

我們需要以歐洲優先的明確原則來做到這一點。

Because if you say you're going to spend more on defense, you can't do it to subsidize factories in Kentucky, you can't do it to buy weapons, where you're going to have control over the use, over the exports, where you're not going to have the sovereignty over the technology.

因為如果你說你要增加國防開支，你不能用來補貼肯塔基州的工廠，你不能用來購買武器，而這些武器的使用、出口，你都無法掌控，你對技術也沒有主權。

This is why we also need really to support our European industry and continue to support Ukraine.

這也是為什麼我們真的需要支持我們的歐洲產業，並持續支持烏克蘭。

我們在過去幾個月裡已經看到了這一點。

We have big debates coming, like the next European budget, the multiannual financial framework, where clearly we will need a high ambition on defense, on space, or on AI and procurement.

接下來會有重大的辯論，像是下一期的歐洲預算、多年期財政框架，顯然我們在國防、太空、或是 AI 和採購方面都需要高遠的目標。

You've mentioned it is one of those areas where Germany and France are working together, together with Spain to develop the fighter jet of the future.

你提到了這是德國和法國與西班牙合作開發未來戰鬥機的領域之一。

But of course, we all know as well that, you know, the Ideas and the analysis is the same in both countries or in all three countries even.

但當然，我們都知道，你知道，這三個國家，甚至所有國家，在想法和分析上都是一樣的。

But it's in the execution where it gets difficult.

It's true that when you want to do ambitious things, it's difficult.

確實，當你想做有野心的事，執行起來就是比較難。

And you have to put together governments, industries, companies that have not been used to working together to provide the fighter jet for the future for Europe.

而且你必須聯合那些不習慣一起合作的政府、產業、公司，為歐洲打造未來的戰鬥機。

But this is something that's very important when we're talking about more synergies, more common projects, when we're talking about European defense, we need to deliver on concrete projects.

但這件事非常重要，當我們在談論更多協同作用、更多共同計畫，當我們在談論歐洲國防，我們就需要拿出具體的計畫成果。

The French government is really committed to this.

We've talked to our German counterparts about moving forward and finding solutions to make FCAS a reality, to make Europe stronger.

我們和德國的對口單位談過，要一起推進並找到解決方案，讓 FCAS 成為現實，讓歐洲更強大。

there was a political deadline already set for the end of last year that then got pushed.

去年底已經設定了一個政治截止日期，後來又被延後了。

I think the key element now, we've seen progress in the last few years on different phases to, to work on the government, to work on the concrete projects through fcas, with the companies, with Dassault and Airbus.

我認為現在的關鍵要素是，我們在過去幾年裡已經看到不同階段的進展，透過 FCAS 與 Dassault 和 Airbus 這兩家公司一起推動政府、推動具體的專案。

You have two excellent companies, very innovative, and

你有兩家很棒的公司，非常有創新精神，而且

I'm confident that we can put the different actors around the table, continue to move forward and implement this project.

我有信心我們可以讓不同的參與者坐下來，繼續往前推進並實施這個專案。

Because once again, you know, when we look at the challenges that we're facing, when we look at the need to create more synergies to go to scale with concrete projects, FCAAS I think, is a good example of what we need to do.

因為再說一次，你知道，當我們看看我們面臨的挑戰，當我們看看需要創造更多協同作用，透過具體專案擴大規模，我認為 FCAS 是我們需要做什麼的一個好例子。

Once again, the tanks and other such projects are important.

再說一次，坦克和其他類似的專案都很重要。

And the other big question that was also being debated here at this year's MSC when it comes to European security and defence and all those joint projects was the nuclear deterrence.

還有一個今年慕尼黑安全會議上關於歐洲安全與國防以及所有這些聯合專案的另一大辯論問題是核威懾。

Now, the French President has reached out to Germany and has said, okay, let's discuss this.

現在，法國總統已經聯繫了德國，並表示，好的，讓我們來討論這個問題。

The German Chancellor confirmed on the stage, even here when he addressed the audience, that these talks are underway.

德國總理在臺上，甚至在這裡向聽眾發表演說時，都證實了這些會談正在進行。

How useful is that that Europeans talk about nuclear deterrence building together?

歐洲人一起討論核威懾的建構，這有多大的用處呢？

Isn't that a risk of alienating the Americans?

這難道不會冒著疏遠美國人的風險嗎？

So first, I think what's really important is that for a long time France has said that Europeans need to take more ownership for their security.

所以首先，我認為非常重要的一點是，法國長期以來一直表示，歐洲人需要為自己的安全承擔更多責任。

And you know, we have, we've always had an independent nuclear deterrent in France and we've always said for a long time now.

而且你知道，我們法國一直擁有獨立的核威懾力量，而且我們很早就這麼說了。

And Jacques Chirac, even when he was president, said in his speech that there was a European dimension to our vital interests.

甚至雅克·席哈克總統在演說時也說過，我們的重大利益具有歐洲層面。

And, of course, the security of our neighbors is a vital interest for France.

當然，我們鄰國的安全對法國來說是重大利益。

The president and the chancellor said it in the last few days.

總統和總理在過去幾天已經說過了。

And the president will have more to say in the coming weeks in his speech about these issues.

而且總統在接下來幾週的演說中，會針對這些議題有更多說明。

But I think, really, this is an important strategic conversation that we're having right now in Europe.

但我認為，這確實是我們現在在歐洲進行的一場重要的策略性對話。

So no chance about the details in Mr. Macron's speech from you?

所以，關於馬克宏總統演說的細節，你這邊不會有任何透露嗎？

But you will hear the president in the coming weeks will have more to say.

不過，你們會在接下來幾週聽到總統有更多說明。