Name: 澤倫斯基總統出席柏林烏克蘭和平峰會 | BBC News (President Zelensky attends Ukraine peace talks in Berlin | BBC News)
Uploaded: 2025-12-15T17:02:35.000Z
Duration: 7 min 22 s

President Zelensky spent five and a half hours yesterday in talks with US And European officials.

澤倫斯基總統昨天花了五個半小時與美國和歐洲官員進行會談。

There are further meetings that are getting underway as we speak.

在我們說話的同時，還有更多會議正在進行中。

The US Envoy, Steve Witkoff is there in Berlin alongside the President's Trump, President Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner.

美國特使史蒂夫·維特科夫正與川普總統的兒子、川普總統的女婿賈裡德·庫什納一同在柏林。

Day two of the talks will include the European leaders.

會談的第二天將會包含歐洲領導人。

At some point today, it's reported that Mr. Zelensky has made one major concession at least.

據報導，澤倫斯基先生今天至少做出了某項重大讓步。

He's talked about dropping Ukraine's aspiration to join NATO in return for an Article 5 style guarantee.

他談到放棄烏克蘭加入北約的願望，以換取類似第五條的保障。

So let's cross and speak to Anita McVeigh, our colleague who is in Berlin.

那麼，我們來連線採訪在柏林的同事安妮塔·麥克維。

What more do we know, Anita, about the sort of framework of today's discussions?

安妮塔，我們還能知道多少關於今天討論的架構呢？

Yeah, well, we understand, Christian, there are more contacts going on between the US And American delegations.

是的，克里斯蒂安，我們瞭解到美國和美國代表團之間還有更多接觸正在進行。

We've been hearing that the Finnish president, Alexander Stubb, has been engaged in some shuttle diplomacy today.

我們聽說芬蘭總統亞歷山大·斯圖布今天一直在進行穿梭外交。

Now, that's really interesting because he is very well liked by President Trump, gets along very well with the president.

這真的很令人感興趣，因為川普總統很喜歡他，跟他相處得非常好。

He was in the White House along with other European leaders and was then in the White House for a bilateral meeting with the president as well in recent months.

他曾和其他歐洲領導人一起在白宮，最近幾個月也曾與總統在白宮進行雙邊會談。

We don't know the detail of that yet, but

這部分細節我們還不清楚，但是

it's a very interesting little snippet into what is happening here in the German capital.

這讓我們對德國首都這裡正在發生的事情有了有趣的窺探。

So I think for more detail on this, we have to look to what President Zelensky said yesterday when he and this is a quote from him, above all, there has to be a proper framework.

所以我想，關於這部分的更多細節，我們得看看澤倫斯基總統昨天說了什麼，他說，這必須有一個適當的架構。

He said, this just can't be a piece of paper with no proper guarantees.

他說，這不能只是一張沒有適當保障的紙。

And I think that phrase the devil is in the detail is a really appropriate phrase here because clearly that is what the Ukrainians and certainly Ukraine's European allies want because they are concerned that any deal that is made in a relatively hasty fashion without the sorts of guarantees that they're talking about might be one that they come to bitterly regret if it falls apart.

我認為「魔鬼藏在細節裡」這句話在這裡非常貼切，因為顯然烏克蘭人，當然還有烏克蘭的歐洲盟友，他們都想要這樣，因為他們擔心任何倉促達成的協議，如果沒有他們所說的那種保障，一旦破裂，他們可能會非常後悔。

So that is why, you know, President Zelensky, for example, is talking about security guarantees being voted on in Congress, so in fact, in effect underwritten by the US Congress.

這就是為什麼，你知道，澤倫斯基總統，例如，正在談論安全保障要在國會投票，所以實際上，由美國國會來擔保。

So those are the kind of key areas that we're looking at today.

所以這些就是我們今天關注的重點領域。

But we are also hearing that Steve Wykoff, President Trump's envoy, has again talked about wanting the Ukrainians to cede the territory in the Donbass, which is something that President Zelensky has said Ukraine is not prepared to do.

不過，我們也聽說，川普總統的特使史蒂夫·維特科夫再次談到希望烏克蘭割讓頓巴斯的領土，而這正是澤倫斯基總統表示烏克蘭不準備這樣做的。

So, some really big sticking points still and whether that will get anywhere today, whether some of that will Become unstuck.

所以，還有一些非常大的癥結點，今天是否能有任何進展，是否能解決一些問題。

克里斯蒂安、安妮塔，非常感謝你們。

And it is going to be there throughout the day.

So she's going to bring you all the live reaction to those talks in Berlin.

所以她會為你帶來柏林會談的所有現場反應。

Let's focus for a second on Chancellor Mertz, who will be sent to stage today.

讓我們專注於梅爾茨總理，他今天將登上舞臺。

Increasingly, he appears to be the frontman for the European side.

越來越多的人認為他是歐洲方面的領軍人物。

He's certainly been the most outspoken on the US Plan and the pro Kremlin elements that he sees within it.

他無疑是對美國的計畫以及他認為其中存在的親克里姆林宮的元素最直言不諱的人。

As I say, there are other European leaders set to join the discussions tonight, including, we're told, in the last few min, at NATO's Secretary General Mark Rutter.

正如我所說，今晚還有其他歐洲領導人將加入討論，據我們得知，在過去幾分鐘內，北約祕書長馬克·魯特也將加入。

Let's bring in Jenny Mathes, an expert on Russian politics and security.

現在讓我們請俄羅斯政治與安全專家 Jenny Mathes 加入。

She's at the Department of International Politics in Aberystwyth.

她在亞伯里斯特威斯國際政治學系。

Does it suit the Brits and the French to let Chancellor Mertz take center stage?

讓梅爾茨總理成為焦點，對英國和法國來說是合適的嗎？

Well, I think they're taking turns, to be perfectly honest.

嗯，我必須說，他們是在輪流擔任主角。

You know, the European leaders, especially the French and the British and the Germans, are sort of playing a tag team approach to all of these negotiations.

你知道的，歐洲領導人，特別是法國、英國和德國，在這些談判中採取了一種接力賽的方式。

London hosts some, you know, Berlin's hosting some.

倫敦主辦一些，柏林也主辦一些。

So I think in, in this way by, by working together and taking turns on the lead, I think they're hoping to show the united front, but

所以我想，透過這種方式，透過合作和輪流擔任領導者，他們希望能展現團結的陣線，而且

also to be able to, to use each one's particular advantages and to use each one's ability perhaps to, to tap into, to some sort of a relationship with the Trump administration and try and, and

也能夠運用各自的特殊優勢，以及各自的能力，或許可以，可以連結到，與川普政府的某種關係，並試圖，試圖

get this, this arrangement, this deal, whatever, it ends up being less toxic for the Ukrainians and more positive for them.

讓這個安排、這個協議，不管最後是什麼，對烏克蘭人來說毒性更小，對他們更有利。

Why would Alexander Stubb, the Finnish pm, be brought in at an early stage as well as the NATO Secretary General?

為什麼芬蘭總理亞歷山大·斯圖布，以及北約祕書長，會在早期階段就被引入呢？

So this looks a bit like good cop, bad cop in some respects.

所以從某些方面來看，這有點像好警察、壞警察。

So the Finnish leader, you know, as your correspondent said, gets along well with Trump, Trump gets along well with him.

所以，正如你的記者所說，這位芬蘭領導人與川普相處融洽，川普也與他相處融洽。

So anything that the Europeans can do to, you know, weight the balance in their favor to give this, these negotiations and these terms a more positive feel for the Trump administration, make them feel more comfortable in Washington about agreeing to them, they're going to use.

所以，歐洲人能做的任何事，你知道的，來平衡對他們有利，讓這些談判和這些條款對川普政府來說感覺更正面，讓他們在華盛頓更容易同意，他們都會去做。

So it feels a little bit like a secret weapon.

And then of course, the NATO Secretary General, who's also been very fulsome in his praise of Trump, nevertheless, you know, is there to sound a note of caution, note of warning about the importance of security guarantees for Ukraine, about the dangers and the threats that Russia is currently posing not only to Ukraine but to Europe more widely worth reminding people that The Ukrainians have had security guarantees before.

當然，北約祕書長，他對川普的讚揚也很多，但同時，你知道的，他也在那裡提醒大家，要強調烏克蘭安全保障的重要性，以及俄羅斯目前不僅對烏克蘭，也對更廣泛的歐洲構成的危險和威脅，值得提醒大家，烏克蘭人以前也曾有過安全保障。

They were given a guarantee by the United States when they gave up their nuclear weapons, the so called Budapest Memorandum.

當他們放棄核武器時，美國給了他們一份保障，也就是所謂的《布達佩斯備忘錄》。

So you can quite understand why President Zelenskyy wants this copper bottoming.

所以你可以完全理解為什麼澤倫斯基總統想要這種萬無一失的保障。

And you know, the Budapest memorandum was basically a promise by the Americans and the British and the Russians to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity and its sovereignty.

而且你知道，布達佩斯備忘錄基本上是美國、英國和俄羅斯承諾尊重烏克蘭的領土完整和主權。

And of course, you know, Russia has totally ignored that and we've seen the results there.

當然，你知道，俄羅斯完全無視了這一點，我們也看到了那裡的結果。

But it only required the signatories to, to bring any violations to the attention of the United Nations.

但它只要求簽署國將任何違規行為提請聯合國注意。

And it was tossed away like tissue paper and pretty much forgotten since then.

它就像衛生紙一樣被丟棄，從那以後幾乎被遺忘了。

So yeah, the Ukrainians know that it's vital for their future to have something much more solid and substantial to guarantee their security.

所以，是的，烏克蘭人知道，擁有更堅實、更實在的保障來確保他們的未來至關重要。

Just a quick word, Jenny, on these economic zones, which seems to be an idea.

珍妮，關於這些經濟區域，這似乎是一個想法，我想快速說一下。

Steve Wyckoff and Donald Trump are pushing this idea that the Ukrainians withdraw from the areas they currently hold.

史蒂夫·維特科夫和川普總統正在推動這個想法，讓烏克蘭人撤出他們目前佔領的地區。

I mean, who polices those areas and how do you prevent the Russians from advancing?

我的意思是，誰來監管這些地區，你又如何阻止俄羅斯推進？

Well, this has the hallmarks of a Trump bright idea that has not been thought through very well because the Russians first of all have said, oh well, even if there is some sort of a zone like this, that they're going to insist that their National Guard will patrol it and that they will provide sort of security for it and so on.

所以，是的，這有川普總統那種還沒想清楚的點子特徵，因為俄羅斯人首先就說了，哦，即使有這種區域，他們也會堅持由他們的國民警衛隊來巡邏，並提供某種安全保障等等。

所以我認為這根本沒什麼意義。

It's very unlikely that anything like this is actually going to transpire because it's hard to see, you know, what would happen in such a zone, you know, who would be looking after it and what the conditions would be.

這種事情實際上不太可能發生，因為很難想像，你知道，在這樣的區域會發生什麼，你知道，誰會來管理它，條件又會是什麼。

So yeah, I suspect this one's going to sink without a trace.

所以，是的，我猜這個想法會默默無聞地消失。

You're looking at live pictures here of the arrivals.

這裡有現場畫面，是抵達的畫面。

These are latest pictures, actually not live.

這些是最新畫面，其實不是現場的。

Apparently he's already in the building sitting down with US officials.

他似乎已經在建築裡，正和美國官員會面。

Prime Minister Sikhistama due to fly out to Berlin after he has spoken with the liaison committee here in London this afternoon.

席克希塔馬總理今天下午在倫敦與聯絡委員會談話後，預計將飛往柏林。

所以預計會有一個大型的歐洲聚會。