Name: 小說如何揭示新聞無法揭示的真相 | Lawrence Wright (How fiction reveals truths journalism cannot | Lawrence Wright)
Uploaded: 2025-10-09T18:32:13.000Z
Duration: 16 min 20 s

程度副詞

Well, I started writing the Human scale, I guess, many years ago because I spent so many years in the region.

嗯，我猜我寫《Human scale》這本書，大概是很多年前開始的，因為我在那個地區待了非常多年。

轉承詞

But I knew when I was writing this book that it was a dangerous book because people feel so strongly one side or the other, and

不過，我在寫這本書的時候就知道，這是一本很危險的書，因為大家對事情的看法都非常極端，

they're deaf to hearing any excuses or explanations for behavior from the other side.

而且聽不進任何對另一方行為的藉口或解釋。

When things get black and white, that's when it gets really dangerous.

當事情變得非黑即白的時候，那時候才是真的危險。

Israel and Palestine are in a very black and white situation.

以色列和巴勒斯坦就處於一個非常非黑即白的狀況。

As a reporter, you can look into the eyes of the people you're talking to and try to evaluate what they're thinking when they say what they say.

作為一個記者，你可以看著跟你說話的人的眼睛，試著去評估他們說話時心裡在想什麼。

But you are not really going to get into their brain.

但你真的無法進入他們的腦袋。

There's only one artistic form that allows you to do that, and that's the novel.

只有一種藝術形式可以讓你做到這一點，那就是小說。

For a novelist, it takes it another layer down.

對小說家來說，這又更深入一層。

You get deep into the history and imagination of your characters and their longings, their faults.

你可以深入角色的歷史和想像，以及他們的渴望、他們的缺點。

You can portray them in a way in a novel that you can't any other way.

在小說裡，你可以用一種其他方式無法做到的方式來描寫他們。

And I wanted to open up spaces in the reader's mind that would allow them to see the humanity of people they don't normally sympathize with.

我希望能為讀者心中開闢一些空間，讓他們看到那些他們通常不同情的人們的人性。

I'm a staff writer for the New Yorker and the author of, I think, 15 books now, 11 of them nonfiction, including the Looming Tower, which is about Al Qaeda and the rise of Al Qaeda, and

我是 New Yorker 的特約作家，也是，我想是 15 本書的作者，其中 11 本是非小說類，包括《Looming Tower》，這本書是關於 Al Qaeda 和 Al Qaeda 的崛起，以及

author of the Human Scale, Deriving Truth and Meaning from Fiction.

《Human Scale》的作者，從小說中推導出真理和意義。

I've been in Gaza, and I've been in Israel many times, and

我去過加薩，也去過以色列很多次，

always came away with a great sense of frustration because they're wonderful people on all sides, and

總是帶著一股強烈的挫折感離開，因為各方都是很棒的人，

yet they cannot seem to shed the hatred and resentment that they feel toward each other.

但他們似乎無法擺脫對彼此的仇恨和怨恨。

I was in Gaza in 2009 after Operation Cast Lead, and

我在 2009 年 Operation Cast Lead 之後去了加薩，

the invasion by the Israeli army was prompted by the fact that Hamas had kidnapped a young Israeli soldier named Gilad Shalit, and

以色列軍隊的入侵是因為 Hamas 綁架了一名叫做 Gilad Shalit 的年輕以色列阿兵哥，

they held him for five years, and Israelis never found him.

他們關了他五年，以色列人卻從來沒找到他。

And finally, they traded a thousand Palestinian prisoners for one Israeli.

最後，他們用一千名巴勒斯坦囚犯換回一名以色列人。

That caused me to ask a question, which is, how does one life get to equal a thousand?

這讓我問了一個問題，那就是，一個人的生命怎麼會等於一千個人？

I thought this devaluation and overvaluation of human life was in some way at the root of the fact that this conflict is so durable.

我認為這種對人命的低估和高估，某種程度上是這個衝突如此持久的根源。

When we weigh things in a scale that is so unbalanced, then it makes it really difficult for people to care for each other.

當我們用一個如此不平衡的秤來衡量事物時，人們就真的很難關心彼此。

If you are a thousand times more valuable than your opponent, then you're not likely to give them much credit.

如果你比你的對手價值高一千倍，那麼你不太可能給他們太多尊重。

And also, if you are one of those devalued lives.

而且，如果你是那些被低估的生命之一。

It increases the chance that you would take violent action against those who are more valuable.

這會增加你對那些更有價值的人採取暴力行動的機會。

The human scale shows the disparity in the value of lives in that region, which I think is basically one of the major problems in trying to resolve the conflict.

Human scale 顯示了該地區生命價值的懸殊，我認為這基本上是解決衝突的重大問題之一。

People imagine that their lives are more valuable or that your opponents lives are less valuable.

人們想像自己的生命更有價值，或者對手的生命價值較低。

But if you can't see the other as a human being, then it's a long way to try to get to peace.

但如果你無法將對方視為人類，那麼要達成和平就還有很長一段路要走。

I mean, we've had the Soviet Union dissolve apartheid in a black man elected president.

我的意思是，我們經歷了蘇聯解體，以及一位黑人當選總統。

We went through Vietnam and two wars in Iraq.

我們經歷了越南戰爭和兩場伊拉克戰爭。

And despite all my research, I didn't really understand what was going on inside the minds of the people in the region.

儘管我做了許多研究，但我真的不瞭解該地區人們內心在想什麼。

And I guess frustrated by my lack of understanding why this conflict just continued.

我猜想，對於我為何無法理解這場衝突為何持續下去，感到很沮喪。

I thought it'd be better to try to experiment with going into the mentality of the people that I'd met as a reporter.

我覺得最好還是試著去揣摩，我當記者時遇到的那些人的心態。

You can look into the eyes of the people you're talking to and try to evaluate what they're thinking when they say what they say.

你可以看著你交談對象的眼睛，試著去評估他們說話時在想什麼。

但你其實無法真正進入他們的腦袋。

只有一種藝術形式能讓你這麼做，那就是小說。

And a novel is the only way you can get into a person's mind.

而小說是你唯一能進入一個人內心的方式。

You get deep into the history and imagination of your characters and their longings, their faults and so on.

你可以深入你角色的歷史和想像，以及他們的渴望、他們的缺點等等。

你可以在小說中以其他方式無法達到的方式來描繪他們。

我想為讀者打開一些空間，讓他們能夠看見那些他們平常不同情的人們的人性。

I decided I would write this novel set in the west bank in Israel.

我決定寫一本設定在以色列西岸的小說。

And I wanted it to be an interesting story.

而且我希望這是一個有趣的故事。

I decided to make it a detective story, a murder investigation.

我決定寫成一個偵探故事，一個謀殺案調查。

The nice thing about crime is it allows you to explore society, dig deep, you know, uncover hidden layers.

犯罪的好處是它能讓你探索社會，深入挖掘，你知道的，揭開隱藏的層面。

And that was what drew me to the idea of doing it as a mystery.

這也是吸引我寫成懸疑故事的原因。

So I had written the first draft and In February of 2023, I went back to the region to more or less on a fact checking adventure.

所以我寫完了初稿，在2023年2月，我回到那個地區進行了一次事實查核探險。

And then October 7th happened and I was faced with a dilemma because it was such a deep wound in Israeli society.

接著10月7日發生了，我面臨一個兩難，因為這對以色列社會來說是一道很深的傷口。

I wasn't sure exactly how to go about it because there's this thin line between explaining and exploiting.

我不確定該怎麼做，因為在解釋和剝削之間有一條很細的線。

In that regard, the only thing I could do is go directly into the tragedy and make it a part of the narrative.

在這方面，我唯一能做的就是直接進入悲劇，讓它成為敘事的一部分。

And it changed everything about the book.

I know that some readers are afraid to read it because it evokes a lot of grief, but

我知道有些讀者不敢讀，因為它會喚起很多悲傷，但

It's a truer story now because I've had to address things that I myself had been reluctant to confront.

現在這是一個更真實的故事，因為我必須處理我自己一直不願面對的事情。

this was right after Operation Cast Lead, which was a periodic Israeli invasion into Gaza.

那是在 Operation Cast Lead 之後不久，那是一次以色列對加薩的週期性入侵。

To mow the grass is the term used in Israel to try to keep the terrorists down.

「割草」是以色列用來試圖壓制恐怖份子的說法。

And they are immensely destructive actions on the part of the Israeli Defense Force, but

而且這是以色列國防軍極具破壞性的行動，但

inconsequential in the long run because they never succeed in suppressing violence.

從長遠來看微不足道，因為他們從未成功壓制暴力。

And the bombing and the destruction that the Israeli army left behind was devastating, but

以色列軍隊留下的轟炸和破壞是毀滅性的，但

At the time I thought, you know, this place is really devastated.

那時候我心想，你知道，這個地方真的很荒涼。

One Sunday morning, it was July, it was hot as hell, and

有一個星期天的早晨，是七月，熱得要命，

那是一個哈瑪斯夏令營，專門為男孩們辦的。

And all these kids wearing these little Hamas beanies and green handkerchiefs around their necks and singing Hamas songs in the courtyard of a school with a group of Hamas commanders in folding chairs.

孩子們都戴著小小的哈瑪斯毛帽，脖子上圍著綠色的手帕，在學校的庭院裡唱著哈瑪斯的歌，旁邊還有一群哈瑪斯的指揮官們坐在折疊椅上。

The night before, I was at my hotel, and they had a little cafe on the rooftop, and

前一晚，我在我的飯店，他們頂樓有個小咖啡廳，

I was looking to see what I was going to have for dinner.

it was this nauseating mix of green and brown because the Israelis had bombed the power plant and there was no sanitation, so it was all going directly in the ocean.

那裡有著令人作嘔的綠色和棕色混合，因為以色列人炸毀了發電廠，沒有汙水處理，所以一切都直接排入大海。

So I thought, well, I'm not going to order fish.

所以我想，好吧，我不會點魚。

But I knew they brought cattle through the tunnels, so I thought, I'll order a steak.

但我知道他們會透過隧道運送牛隻，所以我想，我要點一份牛排。

And the waiter said, would you like that well done or very well done?

服務生問，您想要全熟還是非常全熟？

But I understood what he meant the next day when I was sitting in the classroom.

但隔天我在教室裡時，我才明白他的意思。

When they finally brought me in after the Hamas summer camp, I was seated in a semicircle with a number of Hamas people and Khalil Al Haya, who was a senior official in Hamas.

在哈瑪斯夏令營結束後，他們終於讓我進去，我坐在半圓形裡，和一些哈瑪斯成員以及哈瑪斯高級官員哈利勒·海亞（Khalil Al Haya）一起。

The memory of that dinner the night before was making itself very present.

前一晚晚餐的記憶，讓當時的我感觸很深。

And as I interviewed him, what was going through my mind is just don't faint, because I was really light headed.

當我採訪他時，我腦子裡想的只有「千萬別暈倒」，因為我真的頭昏眼花。

And overhead there was this ceiling fan doing this.

根本無法驅散那裡的悶熱潮濕。

And suddenly I just fell right out of the chair.

突然間我就從椅子上整個滑了下來。

And I didn't actually lose consciousness.

I just went slack and some of the Hamas guys brought in, I don't know from where, a mattress and covered it with prayer mats.

我只是全身癱軟，一些哈瑪斯的人不知道從哪裡搬來一張床墊，上面鋪了祈禱墊。

And I lay down on the floor surrounded by all these dusty boots and continued my interview with Khalil Al Hayy, who was very kind to me.

我就躺在地上，周圍都是這些沾滿灰塵的靴子，繼續和我採訪的哈利勒·海亞（Khalil Al Hayy）對談，他對我非常友善。

And yet he is one of the planners of October 7th, and

然而，他卻是 10 月 7 日的策劃者之一，

he is now the chief peace negotiator for Hamas.

而且他現在是哈瑪斯的主要和平談判代表。

If you can understand the nuances in the context of that story and the helplessness of an American who happens to be present, then you get a sense of how difficult this problem is and the complexities of the humanity that we're faced with.

如果你能夠理解這個故事背景下的細微之處，以及一位恰好在場的美國人的無助感，你就能體會到這個問題有多麼棘手，以及我們所面對的人性有多麼複雜。

Well, this story in the human scale is a murder mystery, and

嗯，這個故事從 Human scale 的角度來看，是一樁謀殺懸案，

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小說如何揭示新聞無法揭示的真相 | Lawrence Wright (How fiction reveals truths journalism cannot | Lawrence Wright)

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