Name: 澳洲前總理 Julia Gillard 談爭取性別平權！- BBC World Service 專訪 (Australia's Julia Gillard on fighting for gender equality - The Interview podcast, BBC World Service)
Uploaded: 2026-03-17T10:21:03.000Z
Duration: 27 min 45 s

反身代名詞

I think we, and I lump myself in with this.

我覺得我們，我把我自己也算進來。

We have allowed to settle an impression that more for women always means less for men, that this is a zero sum game.

我們讓一種印象就這樣形成了，認為女性的增加總是意味著男性的減少，這是一個零和遊戲。

情態副詞

Whereas actually the research clearly shows.

My own life experiences show that when we rise, we rise together.

我自己的人生經驗也顯示，當我們一起進步時，我們是共同進步的。

A gender equal world would be a better world for men too.

性別平等的世界對男性來說也會是更好的世界。

Hello, I'm Lucy Hawkins and this is the interview for the BBC World Service.

大家好，我是 Lucy Hawkins，這裡是 BBC World Service 的專訪。

For this interview I'm joined by Julia Gillard, the former Prime Minister of Australia and now the Chair of the King's Global Institute for Women's Leadership.

這次專訪我邀請到的是澳洲前總理、現任 King's 全球女性領導力研究所主席的 Julia Gillard。

I know that this is research that you conduct along this vein every year, but when I first saw this year's data from the research, I was quite shocked and quite depressed by it.

我知道這項研究是您每年都會進行的，但當我第一次看到今年的研究數據時，我感到相當震驚和沮喪。

And I wonder what your reaction was when the data first came in.

我想知道當數據剛出來時，您的反應是什麼？

Well, I'm sorry that we depressed you in a world where so much is already pressing on us, but I think it's important to understand.

嗯，我很抱歉讓您感到沮喪，在這個已經有太多事情壓在我們身上的世界裡，但我認為理解這點很重要。

Yes, we've been doing this research at the Global Institute for Women's Leadership with Ipsos Mori for several years now.

是的，我們在全球女性領導力研究所與 Ipsos Mori 一起進行這項研究已經好幾年了。

We were one of the first to shine a light on the fact that gender equality attitudes seem to be going backwards amongst young men and boys, teenage boys.

我們是第一批揭示性別平等態度似乎在年輕男性和男孩、青少年男孩之間出現倒退的機構之一。

And year after year we've tried to dig further and further into that.

年復一年，我們試圖深入挖掘。

In the time period, more and more, more people have come to recognise that there's a difference now between how young people are seeing the world, particularly young men and older generations.

在這段時間裡，越來越多的人開始意識到，年輕一代看待世界的方式，特別是年輕男性與老一輩之間，現在出現了差異。

When I first saw this research, I too was very confronted by it, because as a progressive politician, I've always lived with the sense that every generation is a bit more progressive than the generation that went before.

當我第一次看到這項研究時，我也被它深深震撼了，因為作為一位進步派政治人物，我一直認為每一代人都比前一代更進步。

And one of the things that was going to combat gender inequality in our world was that sense of progress.

而我們這個世界對抗性別不平等的一個方法，就是這種進步的感覺。

And then to see in the research actually the younger generation is more conservative on these questions than people my age.

然後在研究中看到，年輕一代在這些問題上比我這個年紀的人更保守。

That deeply troubled me and it continues to.

這件事讓我很困擾，而且一直都是。

One of the headline findings that a lot of people will pick up on is that a third of young men interviewed believe that a wife should always obey her husband.

很多民眾會關注到的其中一個重點發現是，有三分之一的受訪年輕男性認為，妻子應永遠服從丈夫。

And one third also said a husband should have the final word on important decisions.

另外也有三分之一的年輕男性表示，在重要決策上，丈夫應該有最終決定權。

And this is really different from their parents generation.

這跟他們父母那一代的觀念真的差很多。

Why do you think we've seen such a generational shift?

你認為為什麼會出現這麼大的代際轉變呢？

I wish we had all of the answers at the Global Institute for Women's Leadership, where we would love to do a very deep evaluative project into the attitude formation of young Men, we're working at the moment on intuition, but I think the intuition would lead you to a few conclusions.

在我們全球女性領導力研究所，我們很希望能夠找到所有答案，我們也很想針對年輕男性的態度形成，進行一個非常深入的評估專案。我們目前正在研究直覺，但我認為直覺會引導出幾個結論。

One, of course, there is the manosphere and increasingly a cultural zeitgeist, that masculinity is about physical fitness, it's about the ability to project force, it's about dismissive attitudes, even misogynistic attitudes towards women.

首先，當然就是 manosphere，以及越來越盛行的文化時代精神，認為男性氣質就是體能，就是展現力量的能力，就是對女性抱持輕蔑的態度，甚至是厭女態度。

Early access to pornography, I think, is probably part of the mix.

我認為早期接觸色情內容，可能也是其中一部分原因。

I think too that the generation of young men, Gen Z, to use the terminology, would be the generation that were in school when a lot of programs were coming through for the girls and people like me were creating those programs, girls in leadership, girls in science and all the rest of it.

我也認為，像我們稱之為 Z 世代的這群年輕男性，他們在學校的時候，正好是許多針對女性的計畫推行的時候，像我這樣的人也在推動這些計畫，像是女性領導力、女性科學等等。

But maybe they looked at that and thought, why are they getting.

但他們可能看到這些，然後想說，為什麼她們可以得到這些，而我們卻錯過了？

Getting all of these things and we're missing out?

我覺得在性同意的理解上的改變、Me Too 運動，以及讓一些年輕男性開始關注同意權議題，這些可能也讓他們在與女性交往時變得更加猶豫和焦慮。

I think the change that there has been in understandings about sexual consent, the MeToo movement, the Shining a spotlight on issues of consent for some young men, I think that probably has also made them more tentative and anxious about relations with women.

所以我覺得這些都是混在一起的。

而且對任何年輕人來說，從青少年時期過渡到年輕成人是很困難的。

And then it is difficult to do the transition for any young person from teenage years to young adulthood.

這一直都是如此，但統計數據告訴我們，這對今天的年輕男性來說尤其如此。

That's always been true, but the statistics tell us it is particularly true for young men today.

It can be very hard to make that transition.

And of the young people who are not in training, not in work, it is disproportionately young men.

而且在那些沒有接受訓練、沒有工作的年輕人當中，青少年男孩的比例特別高。

Now, you've raised a lot of issues there, so let's delve into some of them.

你剛剛提出了很多問題，那我們就來深入探討其中一些。

I mean, do you feel like misogyny itself has actually changed?

我是說，你覺得厭女態度本身有改變嗎？

What we're seeing now is not sort of the sexism that we saw in the past, but with slightly better algorithms.

我們現在看到的不像過去那種帶有偏見的態度，而是演變成更精密的演算法。

There are actually different elements to it.

I think misogyny has always been with us, and I think it's been perhaps more expressed and less expressed.

我認為厭女態度一直都存在，而且有時候表現得比較明顯，有時候又比較不明顯。

I think in my generation, the more that people came to understand gender inequality, the cultural predisposition of workplaces, of politics, even became more and more that you shouldn't show misogynistic behaviour, that there was a price to be paid.

我認為在我這一代，大家越瞭解性別不平等，以及職場、政治的文化傾向，就越覺得不應該表現出厭女的行為，因為這樣是有代價的。

I'd like to think that I was one of the people who helped bring that change.

我希望自己是幫助帶來這種改變的人之一。

But for others to judge, I think now with the online environment, there are plenty of ways of letting your inner misogynist out without paying any price.

但讓別人來評判，我認為現在的網路環境，有很多方法可以釋放內心的厭女傾向，而不用付出任何代價。

So it's partly that, but I also think it's partly new elements.

所以這是一部分原因，但我也認為這部分也包含了一些新的元素。

I mean, you know, men my age did not grow up with this kind of manosphere.

我是說，你知道，像我這個年紀的男性，並沒有經歷過這種 manosphere。

Men my age did not grow up with the very early access to very violent pornography that young men have today.

跟我同齡的男性，沒有像現在的年輕男性一樣，這麼早就接觸到非常暴力的色情內容。

I mean, when you mention some of the sort of basics of feminism and gender equality to young men today, they almost roll their eyes.

我是說，今天你跟年輕男性談論一些女性主義和性別平等的基礎，他們幾乎會翻白眼。

Some of that messaging that we were raised with doesn't cut through anymore.

我們從小被灌輸的某些訊息，現在已經行不通了。

And I think as feminists, as activists, as someone who's been at this for literally decades, there is a sort of deep reflective piece here that the research is calling on us to do.

我認為，作為女性主義者、作為行動者，以及作為一個在這條路上耕耘了數十年的人，我們需要進行一次深入的反思，這也是研究呼籲我們要做的。

When we look at the research across all age cohorts, it's different cohort to cohort, but we see substantial numbers of people say either gender equality in their country has gone too far or it's gone far enough.

當我們檢視所有年齡層的研究時，雖然不同世代之間有所差異，但我們看到有相當大比例的人認為，他們國家的性別平等已經做得太過頭，或者已經足夠了。

And this is a survey of almost 30 countries.

這是一項涵蓋近30個國家的調查。

所以我們是在談論全世界的情況。

And, you know, yet we know the statistics show it hasn't gone anywhere near far enough if we're looking at life outcomes for women, leadership outcomes for women and all the rest of it.

而且，我們知道統計數據顯示，如果我們看女性的生活成果、女性的領導成果等等，其實離足夠的性別平等還差得很遠。

那麼，是什麼造成了這種脫節呢？

But it is also caught up in the sort of anti wokeism.

但這也跟一種「反覺醒」的思潮有關。

It's almost like feminism is now lumped in with being woke.

現在的感覺就像是女性主義也被歸類為「覺醒」的一部分了。

I think, I think we've been talking about gender equality for a long time and a lot of people have heard all the noise and they think that it has resulted in lots of prose.

我認為，我們談論性別平等已經很久了，很多人聽了這麼多聲音，就覺得這已經產生了很多空談。

So there's a difference between the noise and the progress, but they're hearing the noise.

所以，噪音和進步之間是有區別的，但他們聽到的卻是噪音。

In terms of the self reflective piece, I think we, and I lump myself in with this, we have allowed to settle an impression that more for women always means less for men, that this is a zero sum game.

在自我反思的部分，我認為我們，我把自己也算進去，我們讓一種印象沉澱下來，認為女性得到更多，就代表男性得到更少，這是一種零和遊戲。

Whereas actually the research clearly shows, my own life experiences show that when we rise, we rise together.

但實際上，研究清楚顯示，我自己的生活經驗也證明，當我們一起進步時，我們就會一起提升。

一個性別平等的世界，對男性來說也會是更好的世界。

And then I think there have been programs done in the name of diversity, equity and inclusion, which were ineffective, which were easily parodied, which were resented by the workforce that they were brought to.

然後我認為，有些以多元、公平和包容為名的計畫，成效不彰，容易被嘲諷，並且引起了被納入其中的勞工的反感。

And figures like President Trump and others have channelled that into a political campaign against woke, against gender equality, against feminism.

而川普總統等人則將這些情緒轉化為一場反對覺醒文化、反對性別平等、反對女權主義的政治運動。

And is society in general failing to provide sort of role models of what, you know, equality looks like in a more sort of positive way from men and from women?

社會整體是否未能提供正面的男性和女性榜樣，來展現「平等」的樣貌？

Yes, I think we haven't provided enough of a sense of what that world could look like.

是的，我認為我們還沒有充分描繪出那個世界會是什麼樣子。

And when you just reflect on this data and you see amongst young men and More young women, particularly young men, but also young women.

當我們審視這些數據，並看到年輕男性和更多年輕女性，特別是年輕男性，但也包括年輕女性。

There is more of a latch onto traditional gender norms and stereotypes.

傳統的性別規範和刻板印象變得更為根深蒂固。

I think we need to remind those norms and stereotypes.

我認為我們需要重新檢視這些規範和刻板印象。

Can a significant proportion of young men say, to be a man you've got to be physically strong?

相當比例的年輕男性是否認為，要成為一個男人就必須體能強健？

Well, there are lots of men who are not ripped, who are not in the gym every second day.

嗯，有很多男人並不是身材健美，也不是每天都去健身房報到。

That's not their body type, that's not who they are.

那不是他們的體型，也不是他們真實的樣子。

And all of this clutching for traditional stereotypes is just going to make them feel bad.

而所有這些緊抓著傳統刻板印象的行為，只會讓他們感覺不好。

There are young men who would, given every choice in the world, possibly say they want to go into the caring professions.

有些年輕男性，如果他們有全世界的選擇，可能會說他們想進入照護行業。

They might want to be a nurse, they might want to be a childcare worker, they might want to be an aged care worker.

他們可能想當護士，可能想當幼兒照護員，可能想當長照工作人員。

But if traditional stereotypes settle, they will just be viewed as odd if they select those pathways.

但如果傳統的刻板印象就此定型，他們選擇這些路徑就會被視為奇怪。

So, you know, opening up, taking the sort of gender stereotype bars down, actually gives everyone more options, more choices.

所以，你知道的，開放心胸，放下那些性別刻板印象的門檻，實際上能給每個人更多選擇，更多機會。

So why do you think it is that so many women are drawn to this trad wife trend?

那麼，你認為為什麼有這麼多女性會被這種「傳統妻子」趨勢吸引呢？

I mean, there are millions of followers on social media.

我的意思是，在社群媒體上有數百萬的追隨者。

This lifestyle that they promote around submission and the domestic life.

他們推廣的這種圍繞著順從和家庭生活的態度。

You know, they often dress up in 1950s kind of clothes.

你知道，她們常會穿著那種1950年代的服裝。

I mean, what is it about that that is so appealing for women?

我想問，那樣的內容到底有什麼地方能吸引女性呢？

It's kind of bemusing to me that anybody would think it was appealing to be in a 50s outfit with a full face of makeup at 5 in the morning, milking the goat.

我覺得有點讓人費解，怎麼會有人覺得一大早五點，化著全妝，擠著山羊奶，穿著五零年代的服裝很有吸引力。

You know, this is not my aspiration for myself.

說真的，這不是我對自己的期望。

We actually did some research on this last year and we found when we dug into it that young women who consume a lot of that trad wife content actually don't want to be trad wives.

去年我們做了一些研究，深入調查後發現，看了很多「傳統妻子」內容的年輕女性，其實並不想成為傳統妻子。

And it's a fantasy about having taken off your shoulders all of the difficulties that the world currently presents in navigating work and family life.

這是一種幻想，幻想著可以卸下肩上所有現今世界在工作和家庭生活上遇到的種種難題。

So these young women have looked at older generations of women, you know, really work every hour in the day, times 10 to manage a career, having children, a home, all of it.

所以這些年輕女性看了前幾代的女性，你知道的，她們每天工作十幾個小時，還要兼顧事業、生小孩、打理家庭，什麼都要做。

And they've just looked at it and gone too hard.

她們看了之後就覺得「太累了」。

And then there's this quite beguiling, you know, swan around in a penny, looking amazing and apparently raising the perfect kids with the perfect husband.

然後就出現了這種很誘人的景象，你知道的，像天鵝一樣優雅地晃來晃去，看起來很美，而且據說還能和完美的丈夫一起養育出完美的小孩。

澳洲前總理 Julia Gillard 談爭取性別平權！- BBC World Service 專訪 (Australia's Julia Gillard on fighting for gender equality - The Interview podcast, BBC World Service)