Name: 史上最偉大音樂會？貝多芬第九號交響曲 | Rick Beato 與 Lex Fridman 深度對談！ (Greatest concert in history: Beethoven's 9th Symphony | Rick Beato and Lex Fridman)
Uploaded: 2026-03-06T21:38:21.000Z
Duration: 7 min 7 s
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情態副詞

The other, which actually is a legitimate thing you mentioned, is as one of the greatest concerts of all time is Beethoven's world premiere of Ninth Symphony.

另一個你提到的、真正很了不起的事情，就是貝多芬第九號交響曲的首演，這被認為是有史以來最偉大的音樂會之一。

程度副詞

You know, I didn't really know the personal side of Beethoven until I saw this movie called Immortal Beloved.

說真的，在我看到那部叫做《不朽真情》的電影之前，我並不瞭解貝多芬的個人生活。

It's an excellent movie with Gary Oldman.

這是一部很棒的電影，由蓋瑞歐德曼主演。

Just really, it's a masterful celebration of Beethoven in an interesting kind of way through the perspective of a love letter that he's written.

這部電影用一種有趣的方式，透過他寫的一封情書的視角，來讚頌貝多芬，真是太精采了。

But then I realized, like this early, as many, many couple decades ago now, that he went deaf before he even started writing the ninth Symphony, which is why they consider it to be one of the greatest compositions of all time.

但我那時候就意識到，就像很多很多年前，在他開始寫第九號交響曲之前，他就已經聾了，這也是為什麼大家認為它是史上最偉大的作品之一。

He went deaf, couldn't hear anything before he even started writing it.

他聾了，在他開始寫之前什麼都聽不見。

And so there's that famous story of him in that world premiere of having to be turned around because he can't hear people applauding.

所以有個有名的故事，說他在首演時，有人必須把他轉過來，因為他聽不到大家的掌聲。

So he has to be turn around to see that people are actually clapping.

所以他必須被轉過來，才能看到大家真的在鼓掌。

I mean, there's just this whole tragic element, plus the meaning of the symphony that ends in this beautiful ode to joy.

說真的，這裡面有整個悲劇的元素，再加上這首交響曲以美麗的歡樂頌結尾的意義。

It starts with the chaos and conflict and ends with this celebration of peace and brotherly unity and I guess a call for that, a reaching for that peace.

它從混亂和衝突開始，最後以慶祝和平與兄弟情誼的團結作結，我猜也是一種對和平的呼喚，一種對和平的追求。

And there's a tragic element to it, again, connected to history, which is it was post Napoleonic wars and before the American Civil War.

裡面還有一個悲劇的元素，又跟歷史有關，那就是它發生在拿破崙戰爭之後，美國內戰之前。

So you're in this middle, this respite from war, calling for peace, not knowing that truly horrific wars are coming.

所以你處在這個中間時期，戰後的喘息，呼喚著和平，卻不知道真正可怕的戰爭即將來臨。

So you have the American Civil War and you have, of course, the two world wars coming, all of it together.

所以你會有美國內戰，當然還有即將到來的兩次世界大戰，這一切都連在一起。

And the fact that he's conducting deaf and you wrote this whole thing deaf.

而且他是在失聰的狀態下指揮，你也是在失聰的狀態下寫了這整首曲子。

I was reading a lot about his process and he just edits and edits and edits and edits.

我讀了很多關於他創作過程的資料，他就是不斷地修改、修改、再修改。

So the fact that he had to edit in his head is just insane.

所以他必須在腦海中進行修改，這簡直太瘋狂了。

I mean, Beethoven was sick all the time too.

我的意思是，貝多芬當時也一直生病。

I mean, there are a lot of people were sick all the time.

我的意思是，當時很多人都一直生病。

What would motivate you to write music, this beautiful music that you can never actually hear except for in your head, right?

什麼會讓你想要創作音樂，這些你實際上聽不到，只能在腦海裡聽到的美妙音樂呢？

The amount of time it takes to write, to write a 35 minute, 40 minute piece, all the parts you got to hear, all the orchestration in your head, you're editing, you're doing all these things.

創作一首 35 分鐘、40 分鐘的樂曲，需要花費的時間，你必須在腦海裡聽見所有聲部、所有編排，你進行編輯，做所有這些事情。

Where do you get the motivation when you can't hear the actual finished work?

當你聽不到實際完成的作品時，你的動力從何而來？

And people would say, well, he's here in his head, but what kind of enjoyment is it?

別人可能會說，他腦子裡有，但那有什麼樂趣呢？

我的意思是，他能夠這樣做，真的非常深刻。

他竟然能獲得靈感來做這件事。

There's a thing called the Healing Stadt Testament that he wrote.

有一個叫做海利根施塔特遺囑的東西，是他寫的。

It was a letter to his brothers from 1802.

那是他在 1802 年寫給他兄弟們的信。

I think they found it in his desk after Beethoven died, and

我想貝多芬過世後，他們在他書桌裡發現了這封信，

he felt a sense of shame and humiliation because of his hearing loss.

他因為聽力喪失感到羞愧和屈辱。

And he said that he was afflicted with this thing where him, of all people, that someone standing next to him could hear a flute that he could not hear or a shepherd singing in the field, and

他說，他罹患了這種疾病，竟然連他旁邊的人聽得到長笛聲，或是田野裡牧羊人的歌聲，而他卻聽不到，

Where hearing played such an important part, another person that would had to have had perfect pitch, because you could never do this if you didn't have perfect pitch, which I think all these great composers, for the most part, Brahms didn't, from what I know.

聽覺扮演如此重要角色的情況下，另一個人必須擁有絕對音感，因為如果沒有絕對音感，你絕對做不到這點，我想這些偉大的作曲家，大部分，布拉姆斯我所知道的，就沒有。

But all the rest of them, for sure, had perfect pitch.

但其他所有人都肯定有絕對音感。

So they could hear these things in their head, and that's how they composed.

所以他們能在腦海中聽到這些聲音，這就是他們的創作方式。

我的意思是，你熱愛聲音和音樂。

What do you think it was like gradually losing your hearing for Beethoven?

你覺得貝多芬逐漸失聰是什麼感覺？

I mean, I've heard things where he had to.

我的意思是，我聽說過有些情況，他必須。

And put it on the soundboard of the piano, and

you could feel the vibrations in his skull and things like that.

你就能感覺到他頭骨裡的震動等等。

That he's able to write, like, one of the greatest symphonies ever, while deaf.

他竟然能在失聰的情況下，寫出史上最偉大的交響曲之一。

We mentioned darkness, but torment that he's going through.

我們提到了黑暗，但還有他正在經歷的折磨。

And ultimately Ode to Joy, like, not a cynical thing, a call for the positive.

而最終的歡樂頌，不是一種犬儒的態度，而是一種對正面的呼喚。

I. I've devoted many, many hours thinking about that.

我。我花了很多很多時間思考這件事。

還有，拿破崙也傷透了他的心。

Because he was a supporter of Napoleon, because Napoleon was supposed to represent the French Revolution.

因為他支持拿破崙，因為拿破崙代表了法國大革命。

This hopeful future of no more kings, no more monarchs, no more authoritarian regimes.

這個充滿希望的未來，沒有國王、沒有君主、沒有極權政權。

And Napoleon ended up becoming essentially king.

結果拿破崙最後變成了一個國王。

And Beethoven sort of famously was critical of that.

貝多芬對此也相當有名地批評。

Nevertheless, I think, maintained a fascination with Napoleon throughout his life, but

然而，我認為，他一生中都對拿破崙著迷，但

sort of a kind of more sophisticated, complex view of human nature and human civilization.

是一種更精緻、更複雜的人性與人類文明觀。

So becoming more cynical, like, seeing more clearly that the world disappoints you, the dreams get shattered, and

所以變得更憤世嫉俗，像是，更清楚地看到世界讓你失望，夢想破滅，然後

through that is able to still do this, call for the hopeful future.

透過這樣，仍然能做到這點，呼喚著充滿希望的未來。

All right, so, okay, so Beethoven, one of the greats, for sure.

好的，所以，嗯，貝多芬，絕對是個偉大的人物之一。

I know how to play the first movement of Moonlight Sonata, but

我知道怎麼彈奏《月光奏鳴曲》的第一樂章，但是

I always avoided the third movement because I was like, I'll never be good enough.

我總是避開第三樂章，因為我會想，我永遠不夠好。

One of these days, maybe, you know, it'd be great if Tom Waits writes me an email that says, I only talk to people that can play the third movie.

總有一天，也許，你知道，如果湯姆·威茲寫信給我說，我只跟能彈第三樂章的人說話，那就太好了。

Or whatever you do, you have to have a prince and rescue the princess.

或者不管你做什麼，你都得有個王子來拯救公主。