Name: 擺脫無聊建築！麻布臺Hills設計師Thomas Heatherwick如何升級都市的未來 | WIRED Japan 深度訪談 (退屈な建築からの脱却。麻布台ヒルズを手掛けたデザイナー、トーマス・ヘザウィックが都市の未来をアップデート | The Big Interview | WIRED Japan)
Uploaded: 2026-01-30T18:19:39.000Z
Duration: 18 min 52 s

第二類條件句型

If I was a residential building, I would have been killed 22 years ago.

如果我是一棟住宅大樓，我早就22年前就拆光了。

In Japan, the average age of a residential building before it's demolished is 32.8.

在日本，住宅大樓平均壽命是32.8年就會被拆除。

His urban ideas for city planning were terrible.

他對城市規劃的都市想法很糟糕。

Just wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

根本錯了，錯了，錯了，錯了，錯了，錯了，錯了。

So you wrote an article for Wired at the end of 2024 and the title is it's official.

所以你在2024年底為 Wired 寫了一篇文章，標題是「官方證實」。

無聊的城市對你的健康很不好。

I've been working now for three decades, and

when I began work, my urge was not to express myself.

剛開始工作時，我並不是想表達我自己。

I have had a chance to reflect, particularly over the last five, six years.

我有機會去反思，尤其是在過去的五、六年裡。

We've had a digital revolution in the time since I started my studio, and the seriousness has grown.

自從我創立工作室以來，我們經歷了一場數位革命，而且嚴肅性也增加了。

We used to have to go into a street to buy your food, to get to go to work, you had to leave your home.

以前我們必須出門去買食物，去上班，得離開家。

But now it became clear there's a blind spot, that we have an epidemic of loneliness.

但現在很明顯有一個盲點，我們正經歷一場孤獨症流行。

And it's amazing an industry as big as oil and gas has not been measuring the impact our buildings have on society, on the billions of people who spend their lives going past and around.

令人驚訝的是，像石油和天然氣這樣龐大的產業，竟然沒有衡量我們的建築對社會的影響，對那些花費一生經過和繞行建築的數十億人產生的影響。

Buildings are no longer 8 meters wide or 10 meters wide.

建築物不再是 8 公尺寬或 10 公尺寬。

You end up with buildings that are 100 meters.

結果就是建築物變得非常高，有 100 公尺。

It's not worth a developer, property developer doing a project unless it's 100 meters, 200 meters.

房地產開發商除非能蓋 100 公尺、200 公尺高的建築，否則就不會覺得一個案子有價值。

The interesting thing is that the researchers, the neuroscientists looking at neuro aesthetics and how our environment affects our brain, are showing that it's like ultra processed food.

有趣的是，研究人員、神經科學家們正在研究神經美學，以及我們的環境如何影響我們的大腦，他們發現這就像超加工食品一樣。

We now understand that ultra processed food is not good for our stomachs.

我們現在知道超加工食品對我們的腸胃不好。

And when I was little, my mother was on a macrobiotic Japanese diet.

我小時候，我媽媽就吃日本 التقليدية飲食。

所以這是 1983 年、1984 年的時候。

And my friends would come to my house and look at seaweed and umeboshi plums and be like, what, you're a hippie?

我的朋友們會來我家，看到海帶和日式醃梅，然後問：「什麼？你是嬉皮嗎？」

Now look, the whole world understands that ultra processed food is low nutritional value.

現在大家全球都明白超加工食品是低營養價值。

But we are still in the equivalent of half a century ago and not understanding that buildings.

但我們還停留在半個世紀前，還沒搞懂建築這件事。

That's not the issue, it's public health.

我們可以測量我們的大腦如何反應。

There's things like skin conductance sensors.

有像膚電傳導感測器這樣的東西。

You can just see physiologically how the body in front of the planer, shinier, flatter, more monotonous, anonymous and serious buildings.

你可以看到生理上，身體在面對更光滑、更平坦、更單調、更匿名、更嚴肅的建築時的反應。

And then you can compare with a Less monotonous, less flat, less plain, less serious, less shiny building.

然後你可以跟一個不那麼單調、不那麼平坦、不那麼樸素、不那麼嚴肅、不那麼光滑的建築做比較。

And what's so interesting is this stress hormone cortisol spikes in front of the buildings that are more plain, anonymous, serious, shiny.

有趣的是，在那些比較樸素、匿名、嚴肅、光滑的建築前，壓力荷爾蒙皮質醇會飆升。

And the dirty secret in the construction industry is that when society doesn't care about buildings, we demolish them quicker.

而建築業有個不為人知的祕密，就是當社會不在乎這些建築時，我們就會更快地拆除它們。

In Japan, the average age of a residential building before it's demolished is 32.8 years.

在日本，住宅建築在被拆除前的平均屋齡是 32.8 年。

So if I was a residential building in Japan, I would have been killed 22 years ago.

所以如果我是一棟日本的住宅建築，我早就 22 年前就被拆了。

When society doesn't care, those buildings get demolished.

當社會不在乎時，那些建築就會被拆除。

And the carbon impact, the dirty secret is that it's five times the greenhouse gas emissions of the aviation industry.

而碳排放的驚人祕密是，它的溫室氣體排放量是航空業的五倍。

And society talks about the aviation industry and doesn't talk about construction.

社會只談論航空業，卻不談建築業。

We care about the people inside the buildings and we talk about the client of the building and making the clients.

我們關心建築物裡的人，我們談論建築物的客戶和創造客戶。

New buildings tend to be full, well off companies, well off residential thing.

新建築通常會進駐一些富裕的公司，或是富裕的住宅。

But a 14 year old who will never work in that building, who will never live in that building, what does the building give?

但一個 14 歲的孩子，他永遠不會在那棟建築工作，也永遠不會住在那裡，這棟建築能給他什麼？

But that's why now you even publish this one in Japan and saying this important message to everyone living in Japan and Tokyo cities all over the world.

但這就是為什麼現在你們甚至在日本出版這本書，並向居住在日本和世界各地東京城市的所有人傳達這個重要訊息。

The buildings are fatter and wider and bigger.

建築物變得更胖、更寬、更大。

But us humans, we're still the same size as we were half a million years ago.

但我們人類，我們的體型和五十萬年前一樣。

In the past, buildings were maybe 8 or 9 meters wide, which meant it almost didn't matter what design someone does on a public street, because if you walk for 300 meters, it means and a building is 10 meters wide, you're going to get 60 different impressions, different doors, so you're getting a visual complexity.

以前，建築物寬度大約是八到九公尺，這意味著建築師在公共街道上做任何設計，幾乎都沒什麼差別，因為如果你走三百公尺，建築物寬度是十公尺，你會有六十種不同的印象，不同的門面，所以視覺上很豐富。

I'm designing buildings now which are 300 meters wide, so suddenly imagine one facade for 300 meters, four and a half minutes of your life walking.

我現在設計的建築物寬度有三百公尺，所以想像一下，一面長達三百公尺的牆，你走過去需要四分半鐘。

It's a bit like if I suddenly go, never change.

這有點像是如果我突然說，永遠不要改變。

Actually our streets are rooms, they're the public rooms and the buildings are the walls of public life.

其實我們的街道就是房間，是公共的房間，而建築物就是公共生活的牆壁。

And they need to love us and have a duty to serve us, who will never make any money from those people going past.

它們需要愛我們，有責任為我們服務，而這些建築物從路過的人身上賺不到任何錢。

You'll never work inside me, you're never going to buy anything inside me, but

你永遠不會在我裡面工作，你永遠不會在我裡面買任何東西，但是

Last year your partner, Neil Hubbard gave us A video lecture keynote for the Wired regionality of City Summit and talk about how to regenerate the city itself.

去年你的夥伴 Neil Hubbard 為 Wired 的 City Summit 區域性會議提供了一場線上講座，談論如何重塑城市本身。

We who live in Tokyo kind of start thinking oh, that's too many big boring plain buildings, especially in the center or especially by the Tokyo Bay.

我們這些住在東京的人，開始覺得「哇，有太多又大又無聊的建築物了」，尤其是在市中心或東京灣附近。

So then our regenerative city is not only about regenerate nature, but

所以，我們重塑城市，不只是重塑自然，而是

regenerate culture, regenerate human relationship or communities.

重塑文化、重塑人際關係或社群。

But it's always stopped by the economical judge by the developers how to make Then the right answer is just boring buildings.

但這總是會被開發商的經濟考量給阻止，他們只想著怎麼賺錢，所以最後的答案就是蓋無聊的建築。

That's why they make their new buildings sustainable.

這就是為什麼他們會讓新建築變得永續。

If you don't mind me swearing, they will look like an asshole if they don't.

如果你們不介意我說髒話，如果他們不這麼做，他們看起來就像個混蛋。

But there is no public conversation about are you an asshole if you make your buildings with no generosity to passersby.

但並沒有公開討論，如果你蓋的建築對路人毫無善意，你是不是個混蛋。

And the other thing for me, particularly in Japan is that to me Japanese people are joyful and humorous.

還有對我來說，特別是在日本，日本人是快樂又幽默的。

I know there's many sides to Japanese personality and that humour can be there in new buildings.

我知道日本人的個性有很多面向，幽默感也可以存在於新建築中。

So often the image around architecture must be serious, always serious.

所以建築的形象經常必須是嚴肅的，永遠嚴肅。

And it must be honest and clean lines and pure and subtle.

而且它必須誠實、線條乾淨、純粹且細膩。

Whenever someone says this new building is subtle, I always think oh no, subtle is very good when it's a mobile phone or a tablet.

每當有人說這個新建築很細膩時，我總會想「哦不」，細膩用在手機或平板電腦上很棒。

At this scale, that's really right and calm and true.

在這個尺寸下，這真的很對、很平靜、很真實。

It makes places that are stressful and we need streets to feel human scale.

它創造了壓力很大的地方，而我們需要街道感覺是人性化的尺度。

I'd like to ask the one quite wiredish question.

擺脫無聊建築！麻布臺Hills設計師Thomas Heatherwick如何升級都市的未來 | WIRED Japan 深度訪談 (退屈な建築からの脱却。麻布台ヒルズを手掛けたデザイナー、トーマス・ヘザウィックが都市の未来をアップデート | The Big Interview | WIRED Japan)

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