Name: 喬治桑德斯談改寫、為幽靈寫作，以及艱難時期閱讀小說的樂趣！ (George Saunders On Revisions, Writing For Ghosts, And The Joy Of Reading Fiction In Tough Times)
Uploaded: 2026-01-28T17:04:56.000Z
Duration: 8 min 13 s

形容詞最高級

Ladies and gentlemen, folks of all ages, my next guest is the number one New York Times best selling Booker Prize and National Book Award winning author of 13 books.

各位女士們、先生們，還有各個年齡層的朋友們，我的下一位嘉賓是《紐約時報》暢銷排行榜第一名，榮獲布克獎和全美書獎的作者，他已經出版了13本書。

Please welcome back to the Late show, George Saunders.

歡迎回到 Late show，George Saunders。

This picture right here, I want to have this in my mind forever.

這張照片，我希望永遠留在腦海裡。

I wouldn't mind having this one in my mind forever either.

我也很希望這張照片能永遠留在腦海裡。

This is the fourth time I've been on here.

And the people that you have on the show from, from the producers, all the technical people, so sweethearted.

還有節目上邀請的來賓，從製片人到所有技術人員，都非常善良。

And it just makes it such a beautiful experience.

And I know that comes from the top down, so thank you for that.

我知道這源自於由上而下的管理，所以謝謝你們。

Well, that's lovely to say and I completely agree.

嗯，這真是令人欣慰的說法，我完全同意。

Incredibly lucky to work with this amazing group of people.

我跟這麼優秀的團隊一起工作，真的極其幸運。

And in November, you were awarded the National Book Foundation's I'm gonna get this right Lifetime achievement prize.

而且在十一月，你還獲得了全美書獎的終身成就獎。

那寫作對你來說，又帶給你什麼呢？

Well, you know, my process is really revision heavy, so.

嗯，你知道，我的寫作過程其實非常著重修改，所以。

And in that process, what works for me is to imagine the reader as being kind of better than me, like smarter and more worldly and more compassionate and funnier.

而這個過程中，對我來說有效的方法是想像讀者比我更好，像是更聰明、更有閱歷、更富有同情心、也更有趣。

So you're always kind of writing up to that person.

所以你總是會朝著那個讀者去寫。

You read something and go, oh, that's kind of dull.

你讀了某段文字，然後想，哦，這有點無聊。

And so over the years of doing that, what will happen is a better version of me will appear on the page, which is so refreshing, you know, I mean, I'm not the usual dummy.

所以經過這些年的努力，一個更好的我會出現在紙上，這真的很令人欣慰，你知道，我的意思是，我不是平常那個笨蛋。

And does that make you want to sort of edit everything you say and do in your life if you know that given another day, yeah, 100% could.

這會讓你想要編輯你生活中說的做的所有事情嗎？如果知道再給一天，是的，百分之百可以。

You can even answer that question differently if you'd like.

你也可以選擇用不同的方式回答這個問題。

I'm over here trying to be my best self and hopefully the reader feels that.

我在這裡努力展現最好的自己，希望讀者也能感受到。

And then we both kind of come out of the usual kind of habitual self and have that little moment of kind of like high level union.

然後我們兩個人都像是從平常習慣的自我中跳脫出來，有了那種高層次的連結時刻。

So that's really beautiful and addictive.

所以這真的很美好，也很讓人上癮。

Right now for a lot of people is a time of enormous stress and turmoil.

現在對很多人來說，是個充滿巨大壓力與動盪的時刻。

And I'm just curious what you think the role of art is in times of growing darkness.

我只是很好奇，在越來越黑暗的時代，你認為藝術扮演什麼樣的角色？

You know, a lot of writers are worried about this, and

你知道，很多作家對此感到擔憂，

I think sometimes you feel like you're doing kind of painting the baseboards, and

我覺得有時候你會覺得自己好像在做粉刷底板那種事，然後

But for me, okay, so I want the reader to feel that I'm there with her.

但對我來說，好，我希望讀者能感覺到我跟她同在。

你做到這一點的方式就是在修改的時候。

You try to get in touch with some truth that you share.

你試著去觸碰一些你共享的真實。

So I think now it's not a huge thing, but it's not nothing.

所以我覺得現在這不是件大事，但也不是毫無意義。

We can look at a text, and by doing that, we can recalibrate our relation to truth.

我們可以閱讀一篇文章，透過這樣做，我們可以重新校準我們與真實的關係。

Because this administration seems to be working at a task of lying so often that we get used to it.

因為這個政府似乎經常在做說謊這件事，以至於我們都習慣了。

It's like if you're in a really fancy restaurant and a waiter brings in three turds on a tray, you know, under a silver dome.

就像如果你在一家很高級的餐廳，服務生端著三個便便在盤子上，你知道，蓋著銀色蓋子。

And so in that point, I mean, basic sanity is to say, waiter, you know, let's take this away.

所以在這一點上，我的意思是，基本的理智就是說，服務生，你知道，我們把這個拿走。

But the idea is, if you keep bringing the turds on a tray, like, okay, leave it.

但問題是，如果你一直端著盤子裡的便便，就像，好吧，算了。

You know, everyone else seems to be enjoying it.

你知道，其他人好像都很享受。

So in a small way, I feel like things are so confusing and so sad and so cruel, this ambient cruelty.

所以從某個小地方來看，我覺得事情太讓人困惑、太讓人難過、太殘酷了，這種無所不在的殘酷。

So for a couple minutes a day, I'm like, yeah, I don't know what I can do, but

所以每天幾分鐘，我就會想，嗯，我不知道我能做什麼，但是

I can just recalibrate my relation to truth.

我可以重新校準我跟真實的關係。

What's the role of fiction in times like this?

在這樣的時代，小說扮演什麼角色？

Some people say, well, fiction is not good in a time like this because it's a form of escapism.

有些人說，嗯，小說在這種時候不好，因為它是一種逃避現實的方式。

Well, my experience with fiction is it frees up everything.

嗯，我對小說的經驗是，它能解放一切。

You don't have to be accurate to anything except the soul, essentially, you know.

你不需要對任何事準確，除了靈魂，基本上，你知道的。

所以從這個角度來看，它是如此自由。

And I think that in itself is really powerful.

而且我認為這本身就非常有力量。

And I have the feeling that with fiction, a writer can reach out, and

而且我感覺，透過小說，作家可以伸出手，

even if the person is very different from you, you can hit something essential.

即使那個人跟你非常不一樣，你也能觸碰到某種核心的東西。

I talked to a couple somewhere in my travels, and

在我旅行的過程中，我遇到了一對夫妻，

they were like mediation people, divorces or corporate problems and stuff.

他們是做調解的，處理離婚或公司問題之類的。

And they said in the most difficult cases, what they would do is take a Chekhov story and ask the different parties to read it.

他們說在最困難的情況下，他們會做的是拿一篇契訶夫的故事，讓相關方去讀。

And they said it was so amazing, because whatever the real problem was, they didn't need to talk about that.

他們說這太神奇了，因為不管真正的問題是什麼，他們都不需要談論那個。

They were talking about these imaginary people in a story.

他們在談論故事裡的這些虛構人物。

And in the process, they said people would become weirdly vulnerable.

而且在這個過程中，他們說人們會變得異常脆弱。

They would confess things that in the defensive mode, they wouldn't confess So I think that's, you know, from the time we're little, our parents are telling us a story and we're trying to make sense of the universe through made up things, which somehow frees us from the constraint of the kind of everyday and the habitual, I think.

他們會坦承在防禦狀態下不會說出口的事情。所以我想，你知道的，從我們小時候開始，父母就講故事給我們聽，我們試圖透過虛構的事物來理解宇宙，這不知怎地讓我們擺脫了日常和習慣的束縛，我認為。

So, like in fiction, you and I can speak at each other, but

所以，就像在小說裡，你和我可以互相對話，但是

if we're like, say, if we're both reading the same book, for instance, let's say we were all reading Vigil.

如果我們，比如說，我們都在讀同一本書，舉個例子，假設我們都在讀 Vigil。

So you have one everywhere you go and like that.

這樣你走到哪裡都可以帶一本，諸如此類。

But then we're side by side, like facing the story together and experiencing in a similar way.

但接著我們就是並肩而行，像是共同面對故事，以相似的方式體驗。

Which is one of the reasons why even though you've won the Booker Prize and you've won the National Book Award, right now, I'm about to say bestow on you the highest prize any book could possibly get.

這也是為什麼，即使你贏得了布克獎，也贏得了全美書獎，但現在，我要說要給你一個任何書籍可能得到的最高獎項。