Name: 85 年的研究表明，幸福的真正關鍵是什麼 | Robert Waldinger：訪談全文 (What 85 years of research says is the real key to happiness | Robert Waldinger: Full Interview)
Uploaded: 2025-07-25T18:58:21.000Z
Duration: 1 h 1 min 38 s

I am a psychiatrist and I'm professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.

我是一名精神病醫生，也是哈佛醫學院的精神病學教授。

I direct the Harvard Study of Adult Development at Massachusetts General Hospital.

我是麻省總醫院哈佛成人發展研究的負責人。

I became interested in psychiatry unexpectedly.

我意外地對精神病學產生了興趣。

I had never known a psychiatrist growing up, but when I was in medical school I found that the way people's minds worked was the most fascinating thing I could possibly study.

在我的成長過程中，我從未見過精神病醫生，但當我在醫學院學習時，我發現人們的思維方式是我所能研究的最吸引人的東西。

So I eventually found that there was really nothing else for me in medicine but doing psychiatry.

是以，我最終發現，在醫學領域，除了精神病學，我真的別無選擇。

I started out as an intern in pediatrics and I would see one ear infection after another.

我剛開始是兒科實習生，耳部感染接踵而至。

And the kids were adorable, but one ear infection is pretty much the same as every other.

孩子們都很可愛，但一次耳部感染和其他感染沒什麼兩樣。

Whereas when you talk to people about their lives, it's never the same.

而當你和別人談論他們的生活時，情況就完全不一樣了。

And I knew that that would keep me interested for my whole career, which it has.

我知道，這將讓我在整個職業生涯中都保持興趣，而事實也是如此。

I am the fourth director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development and it is the longest study of adult life that's ever been done.

我是哈佛大學成人發展研究的第四任主任，這是迄今為止對成人生活進行的時間最長的研究。

It started in 1938 as two studies that weren't even aware of each other.

這項研究始於 1938 年，最初只是兩項互不相識的研究。

One study started at Harvard Student Health Service with 19-year-old sophomores who were thought by their deans to be fine, upstanding young men.

一項研究始於哈佛大學學生健康服務處，研究對象是 19 歲的大二學生，他們的院長認為他們是優秀、正直的年輕人。

And the other study was a study of juvenile delinquency and it selected boys, middle school age, from Boston's poorest families but also the most troubled families.

另一項研究是對青少年犯罪的研究，它從波士頓最貧困的家庭和最有問題的家庭中挑選了一些國中年齡的男孩。

Families beset by problems like domestic violence and parental mental illness and physical illness.

受家庭暴力、父母精神疾病和身體疾病等問題困擾的家庭。

This study set out to understand what makes people thrive as they grow and develop.

這項研究旨在瞭解是什麼讓人們在成長和發展過程中茁壯成長。

And that was unusual because most research that's been done is done on what goes wrong in human development so that we can help people.

這很不尋常，因為大多數研究都是針對人類發展過程中出現的問題進行的，這樣我們才能幫助人們。

But this was a study of what So it was how do kids from disadvantaged families stay on good paths and develop well?

但這是一項關於什麼的研究？ 那麼，來自貧困家庭的孩子如何才能保持良好的學習和發展？

And then of course the very privileged Harvard group was meant to be a study of normal young adult development.

當然，非常優越的哈佛小組是為了研究正常年輕人的成長。

We now know that if you want to study normal young adult development, you don't just study white men from Harvard, but at that time that's what they did.

我們現在知道，如果要研究正常的青少年發育，就不能只研究哈佛大學的白人，但當時他們就是這麼做的。

We study well-being as people go And our big question is, if you could make one choice today to make it likely that you would stay happy and stay healthy throughout your life, what single choice would you make?

我們研究的是人的幸福感，而我們最大的問題是，如果你今天可以做出一個選擇，使你有可能在一生中保持快樂和健康，你會做出哪一個選擇？

And most of us think it's something to do with getting rich or achieving a lot.

我們中的大多數人都認為這與致富或取得巨大成就有關。

And some people even think they become famous to have a happy, healthy life.

有些人甚至認為，他們成名是為了過上健康快樂的生活。

But our study and many other studies show that the single choice we can make that's most likely to keep us on a good path of well-being is to invest in our relationships with other people.

但我們的研究和許多其他研究都表明，我們所能做出的最有可能讓我們走上幸福之路的唯一選擇，就是投資於我們與他人的關係。

The people in our study who had the happiest, warmest relationships were the people who stayed healthy longest and who lived the longest.

在我們的研究中，人際關係最幸福、最溫暖的人，健康狀況保持得最久，壽命也最長。

The Harvard study started in 1938 and it has followed the same people throughout their entire lives from the time they were teenagers all the way into old age.

哈佛大學的這項研究始於 1938 年，它對同一個人從青少年到老年的一生進行了跟蹤調查。

The study began with 724 young men and then we brought in most of their wives and eventually most of their children so that now there are over 2,000 people in these 724 families who we have followed through their entire adult lives.

這項研究從 724 名年輕人開始，然後我們把他們的大多數妻子也包括進來，最後又把他們的大多數孩子也包括進來，所以現在這 724 個家庭中有 2000 多人，我們對他們的整個成年生活都進行了跟蹤調查。

We started collecting information by giving these young men elaborate psychological examinations, also medical examinations.

我們開始收集資訊，對這些年輕人進行了細緻的心理檢查和體檢。

Then we went to their homes, we talked to their parents and sometimes even their grandparents, and the workers made elaborate notes about what was being served for dinner and what the discipline style was in the family and even what the curtains looked like.

然後，我們去他們家裡，與他們的父母，有時甚至是祖父母交談，工人們會詳細記錄晚餐吃什麼，家裡的紀律作風如何，甚至窗簾是什麼樣的。

And then eventually as new methods of studying human life came on board, we adopted those methods.

最後，隨著研究人類生活的新方法的出現，我們也採用了這些方法。

So, audiotaping, videotaping, we now draw blood for DNA and DNA wasn't even imagined in 1938 when the study began.

所以，錄音、錄像，我們現在抽血檢測 DNA，而 DNA 在 1938 年研究開始時甚至還沒有被想象到。

We've put many of our people into an MRI scanner and watched how their brains light up as we show them different visual images.

我們將許多人放入核磁共振成像掃描儀，觀察他們的大腦如何在我們向他們展示不同的視覺影像時發出亮光。

We bring them into our laboratory and we deliberately stress them out and then we watch how they recover from stress as one more way of understanding well-being.

我們把它們帶到實驗室，故意給它們施加壓力，然後觀察它們如何從壓力中恢復過來，以此作為了解幸福的另一種方式。

One of the things that is more common now but was unusual when we started it was combining biological measures and psychological measures and seeing how our biology is influenced by our mental states and vice versa.

其中有一項工作現在比較常見，但在我們開始這項工作的時候並不常見，那就是把生物測量和心理測量結合起來，看看我們的生物狀態是如何受心理狀態影響的，反之亦然。

So, it's this combining of mind and body measurement that was relatively new in the last 20 years.

是以，這種將心靈和身體測量相結合的方法在過去 20 年裡還是比較新的。

The question comes up how much of our happiness is under our control and they've done some scientific analyses of this.

他們對此進行了一些科學分析。

A psychologist named Sonia Lubomirsky did an analysis in which she estimates that about 50 percent of our happiness is a kind of biological set point probably determined by our genes that has to do with inborn temperament.

一位名叫索尼婭-盧博米爾斯基（Sonia Lubomirsky）的心理學家做過一項分析，她估計我們的幸福感中大約有 50% 是一種生物設定點，可能由我們的基因決定，與先天氣質有關。

We all know people who are kind of naturally gloomy and other people who are naturally chipper no matter what's on.

我們都知道，有些人天生陰鬱，而有些人則無論遇到什麼事都能保持愉悅的心情。

So, about half of our happiness is that inborn temperament.

所以，我們的幸福有一半是與生俱來的氣質。

Then about 10 percent she finds is based on our current life circumstances and then the last 40 percent is under our control.

然後，她發現大約有 10% 是基於我們當前的生活環境，最後的 40% 則由我們自己控制。

We can make ourselves more likely to be happy by building a life that includes the that make for happiness.

我們可以通過建設一種包含幸福要素的生活，讓自己更有可能獲得幸福。

The questions that we might ask ourselves about our relationships are kind of simple.

關於人際關係，我們可能會問自己一些簡單的問題。

One is do I have enough connection in my life or do I even have too much connection if I'm a shyer person and need as many people in my life.

一個問題是，如果我是一個比較害羞的人，我的生活中是否有足夠多的人際關係，或者我的生活中是否有太多的人際關係，我需要儘可能多的人。

So, do I have what I need and each person can check in with themselves about that.

所以，我是否擁有我所需要的東西，每個人都可以自我檢討一下。

Then the question is do I have relationships that are warm and supportive and there again each of us needs to ask that question.

那麼問題來了，我是否擁有溫暖和支持的人際關係，我們每個人都需要問這個問題。

Do I have people who have my back who I feel I could call and would be there in an emergency because hard times are always coming our And then the question is also what am I getting from relationships.

我是否有支持我的人，我是否覺得我可以打電話給他們，在緊急情況下他們會在我身邊，因為困難時期總會到來。

Do I have enough people to have fun with.

Do I have enough people who will loan me their tools when I need to fix something in my house or who will drive me to the doctor when I need a ride.

當我需要修理家裡的東西時，是否有足夠多的人願意把工具借給我；當我需要搭車去看醫生時，是否有足夠多的人願意開車送我。

One of the things we know about life is that we all have worries.

我們對生活的認識之一就是，我們都有煩惱。

We all have concerns that come along worries about children worries about health worries about finances and one of the best teachings I got in my training as a psychiatrist was from one of my mentors who said never worry alone and this teacher meant that about being worried about a patient who I was treating but what I've come to understand that it's really good advice for just about everything in life that if I'm really worried about something and I share it with somebody I trust it makes all the difference in how much better I feel and how much less alone I feel with my worry there are so many different things we get from relationships and so each of us can check in with ourselves about what we have and what we would like a little more of.

在我接受精神科醫生培訓的過程中，我得到的最好的教誨之一來自我的一位導師，他說永遠不要獨自擔心，這位老師的意思是擔心我正在治療的病人。如果我真的很擔心某件事情，而我把它告訴了我信任的人，那麼我的感覺就會大不一樣，我的擔心也就不會那麼孤獨了，我們可以從人際關係中獲得很多不同的東西，所以我們每個人都可以檢查一下自己，看看我們擁有什麼，我們還想要什麼。

So we've learned several big lessons about relationships about good relationships and one of them is that childhood experience really does matter what happens to us in childhood sets the stage for what we come to expect from the world and that's often a good thing if we're raised by people who are warm and caring and reliable some people don't have that luck and are raised in environments where they feel like the people who are supposed to take care of them aren't trustworthy can't be relied upon and so many of those people come into adulthood with the expectation that the world is not a safe place and that people can't be relied on.

是以，我們學到了關於人際關係、關於良好人際關係的幾條重要經驗，其中之一就是童年的經歷真的很重要，童年發生的事情為我們對世界的期待奠定了基礎。但有些人就沒那麼幸運了，他們成長的環境讓他們覺得本該照顧他們的人並不值得信賴，是以很多人在成年後都會覺得這個世界並不安全，人們並不值得依賴。

The other thing we've learned is that adult experience can correct for some of those unfortunate lessons that people learn in childhood.

我們學到的另一點是，成人的經驗可以糾正人們在童年學到的一些不幸的教訓。

Becoming connected with a good partner with good friends who you can count on can go a long way to change those gloomy expectations about the world and about relationships and allow us to that yes we can find people who are good reliable partners in our relational world.

與可以信賴的好夥伴、好朋友建立聯繫，可以大大改變人們對世界和人際關係的悲觀預期，讓我們相信，是的，我們可以在人際關係中找到可靠的好夥伴。

So another lesson that we learn is that all relationships that are important have some disagreements or some difficulties and that actually facing those difficulties goes a long way to strengthen relationships much of the time so that if we can work on relationships that turns out to have great payoff in terms of keeping our connections stronger.

是以，我們學到的另一個教訓是，所有重要的人際關係都會有一些分歧或困難，而面對這些困難在很大程度上會加強人際關係，是以，如果我們能在人際關係上下功夫，就會有很大的回報，使我們的人際關係更加牢固。

What that means is that it's normal to have disagreements it's normal to have difficulties and that the more skill we can develop in working through difficulties the better our social worlds are.

這就意味著，有分歧是正常的，有困難也是正常的，我們在解決困難方面掌握的技能越多，我們的社會世界就越美好。

One of the biggest lessons we learned from our study is that our connections with other people help us weather the hard times of life and hard times are there in every life.

我們從研究中汲取的最大教訓之一是，與他人的聯繫有助於我們渡過生活中的艱難時期，而艱難時期在每個人的生活中都存在。

So our original participants were born during the Great Depression and many of the Harvard undergraduates were of an age to go and serve in World War II and when we asked them how did you get through these really difficult times all of them to a person talked about their relationships.

是以，我們最初的參與者都出生在大蕭條時期，許多哈佛大學的大學生都到了參加二戰的年齡，當我們問他們，你們是如何度過這段非常艱難的時期時，他們都不約而同地談到了他們的人際關係。

Our neighbors shared what little we had during the Depression.

在大蕭條時期，我們的鄰居分享了我們僅有的一點東西。

My fellow soldiers in the trenches were the people who kept me going.

是戰壕裡的戰友們讓我堅持了下來。

The letters that came to me from back home while I was overseas in the war were what sustained me and so what we find is that these connections turn out to be the best protection against the difficult times that are always coming our way.

當我在海外打仗時，家鄉寄給我的信是我的精神支柱，是以我們發現，這些聯繫是抵禦困難時期的最好保護傘，而困難時期總是在向我們走來。

We are pretty sure that we human beings evolved to be social animals that in fact staying together in groups made it more likely that we would survive the dangers that are out there in the world and pass on our genes which is the goal of evolution so we evolved to find being together secure and safe and to find being alone a stressor and what we find is that that is still the case that people who are more isolated than they want to be are stressed.

我們非常確信，人類進化成了社會性動物，事實上，群居使我們更有可能在危險中生存下來，並將我們的基因傳遞下去，這是進化的目標。

Loneliness is a big stressor and we think that that is biologically based as well as emotionally based.

孤獨是一個很大的壓力源，我們認為這既有生物方面的原因，也有情感方面的原因。

The best hypothesis about how relationships get into our bodies and affect our physical health is through stress that we're having stressful experiences often all day and that's normal and that when we're stressed the body is meant to go into what we call fight or flight mode where essentially heart rate goes up, I might start to sweat, a variety of changes happen but then when the stressor is removed the body is meant to return to equilibrium.

關於人際關係如何進入我們的身體並影響我們的身體健康，最好的假設是通過壓力，我們經常整天都有壓力體驗，這是正常的，當我們有壓力時，身體會進入我們所說的戰鬥或逃跑模式，基本上心率會上升，我可能會開始出汗，會發生各種各樣的變化，但當壓力消除後，身體會恢復平衡。

What we think happens is that if I have something stressful happen during the day and I can go home and talk to a friend or call someone I can literally feel my body calm down.

我們的想法是，如果我在白天遇到了一些緊張的事情，我可以回家和朋友哈拉或打電話給別人，我真的能感覺到我的身體平靜下來。

If I don't have anyone I can talk to about something that happens in my life that's stressful we believe what happens is we stay in a kind of low level chronic fight or flight mode and what that means is that we have higher levels of circulating stress hormones like cortisol, we have higher levels of inflammation going on in the body all the time and that these changes gradually wear away different body systems which is how stress and loneliness could make it more likely that we would get coronary artery disease and more likely that we would get type 2 diabetes or arthritis could affect multiple body systems through this common denominator of chronic stress.

我們認為，如果我的生活中沒有可以傾訴的人，我們就會處於一種低水平的慢性戰鬥或逃跑模式，這意味著我們體內的皮質醇等應激激素循環水準會升高、這些變化會逐漸磨損不同的身體系統，這就是壓力和孤獨如何使我們更有可能患上冠狀動脈疾病，更有可能患上 2 型糖尿病或關節炎，並通過慢性壓力這一共同點影響多個身體系統。

Our understanding is that good relationships actually are emotion regulators that what happens is that good relationships involve the exchange of positive emotion that helps our bodies stay in equilibrium.

我們的理解是，良好的人際關係實際上就是情緒調節器，良好的人際關係涉及積極情緒的交流，這種交流有助於我們的身體保持平衡。

So in fact they've put people in MRI scanners and watched what happens to them when they go through a stressful medical procedure and they find that if they're holding someone's hand even a stranger but certainly someone they know their bodies stay much closer to equilibrium than if they're alone undergoing the same medical procedure and so what it shows us is that being connected to another person makes us feel safer and keeps our bodies at a kind of physiologic equilibrium that promotes health.

他們發現，如果他們握著某人的手，即使是陌生人，但肯定是他們認識的人，他們的身體會比獨自接受同樣的醫療程序時更接近平衡，所以這告訴我們，與他人相連會讓我們感覺更安全，並讓我們的身體保持一種促進健康的生理平衡。

A toxic relationship is one where we can't get beyond difficulties, unhappiness, anger.

有毒的關係就是我們無法超越困難、不快和憤怒的關係。

We can't ever come out the other side to a place where we're okay again with each other and so a toxic relationship involves unhappiness even if you're quiet about it, chronic resentment, often withdrawal and then active arguing.

是以，一段有毒的關係包括不快樂，即使你對此保持沉默，長期的怨恨，經常的退縮，然後是積極的爭吵。

On the other hand couples argue all the time without having these detrimental effects.

另一方面，夫妻經常爭吵也不會產生這些有害影響。

What we've found from our research is that couples can argue often and quite vocally but if there is a bedrock of affection and respect those relationships continue to be positive and stable.

我們在研究中發現，夫妻之間可能會經常爭吵，而且吵得很凶，但如果有感情和尊重作為基礎，這種關係就會繼續保持積極和穩定。

Research shows us that loneliness is certainly a stressor and that we have increased levels of stress hormones, increased levels of chronic inflammation but research also shows us that ongoing acrimony in a relationship, constant arguing and unhappiness is also hazardous to our health for just the same reasons.

研究表明，孤獨無疑是一種壓力源，我們體內的壓力荷爾蒙水準會升高，慢性發炎水準也會升高，但研究還表明，出於同樣的原因，人際關係中持續的爭吵、不斷的爭吵和不愉快也會危害我們的健康。

So there was in fact a study that suggested that staying in a really toxic intimate relationship may be worse than splitting up for that reason because a really difficult acrimonious relationship is that source of chronic stress that keeps us in fight or flight mode most of the time and breaks down our body systems.

是以，事實上有一項研究表明，保持一段真正有毒的親密關係可能比是以而分手更糟糕，因為一段真正困難的尖銳關係是慢性壓力的來源，它讓我們大部分時間都處於戰鬥或逃跑模式，並破壞我們的身體系統。

The research shows that people who have a secure connection with a partner in late life have slower brain decline.

研究表明，晚年與伴侶保持安全聯繫的人，大腦衰退的速度較慢。

In addition the research shows that people who are lonely in late life have more rapid brain decline.

此外，研究表明，晚年孤獨的人大腦衰退得更快。

So we know that this same process of increased stress or decreased stress affects how our brains age.

是以我們知道，壓力的增減同樣會影響我們大腦的衰老。

Chapter three, strengthening your connections.

When we looked at all these lives and how they played out over time we found that the people who were the happiest and the healthiest paid attention constantly to their relationships.

當我們觀察所有這些人的生活，以及隨著時間的推移，他們是如何生活的時候，我們發現，那些最幸福、最健康的人都會持續關注他們的人際關係。

They were inviting people over, they were joining clubs, they were maintaining connections with family and friends and in community and we began to think of this as a kind of fitness, a social fitness analogous to physical fitness.

他們邀請別人來家裡做客，加入俱樂部，與家人、朋友和社區保持聯繫，我們開始認為這是一種健身，一種類似於體育健身的社交健身。

So if you think about it you don't go to the gym today and then you come home and say I'm done I never have to work out again.

所以，如果你仔細想想，你今天去健身房，然後回家說我不練了，再也不用鍛鍊了。

We know that maintaining our physical fitness is an ongoing practice and what we found was that our happiest healthiest people did the same with their relationships.

我們知道，保持身體健康是一項持續的工作，而我們發現，最健康快樂的人在人際關係方面也是如此。

And so what we've come to understand is that each of us can do that through small actions that we repeat over and over again.

是以，我們認識到，我們每個人都可以通過不斷重複的小行動來做到這一點。

Reaching out to friends, to family through little texts or emails or phone calls day in day out, certainly weekly.

通過簡訊、電子郵件或電話，日復一日地與朋友、家人聯繫，當然是每週一次。

Making sure that we see people in person who we want to stay current with and who we want to keep in our lives.

確保我們能親眼見到我們希望與之保持聯繫的人，以及我們希望在生活中留住的人。

That these actions, paying attention to how often we're seeing people, how often we're in touch with people, pay off.

這些行動，關注我們與人交往的頻率，關注我們與人接觸的頻率，都是有回報的。

They build over time into social networks that are vibrant and make us happier and keep us healthier.

隨著時間的推移，這些社交網絡會變得生機勃勃，讓我們更快樂，更健康。

So the question comes up how do I know how I'm doing?

那麼問題來了，我怎麼知道自己做得怎麼樣？

And really it's in the eye of the beholder that you can check in with yourself and say do I have the kinds of relationships that I would like?

實際上，你可以檢查一下自己，說說我是否擁有我想要的那種關係？

Do I have as many relationships as I would like?

You could even do a little exercise where you map out your relationships, draw a set of concentric circles and then see who's at the center of your life and then who's farther out, who are your more peripheral relationships and see how well populated your world is and whether that feels like the right amount for you.

你甚至可以做一個小練習，在地圖上標出你的人際關係，畫一組同心圓，然後看看誰在你生活的中心，誰在更遠的地方，誰是你更邊緣的人際關係，看看你的世界裡有多少人，以及這對你來說是否合適。

And if it doesn't feel like the right amount there are things you can do to make things the way you would like them to be.

如果你覺得這不是一個合適的數量，你也可以做一些事情，讓事情變成你想要的樣子。

One way to map your social universe is to think of it as four quadrants that on the horizontal axis it's how frequently do I see this person from infrequently to frequently and on the vertical axis it could be how energizing is this relationship.

繪製社交宇宙圖的一種方法是將其視為四個象限，在橫軸上是我見到這個人的頻率，從不常出現到經常出現，在縱軸上可以是這種關係有多令人振奮。

Up at the top it could be very energizing, down at the bottom it could be depleting and then see where each important person in your life fits on this grid.

然後看看你生命中的每個重要人物在這個網格中的位置。

You might find that there are some people you see frequently who are quite depleting, who drain your energy.

你可能會發現，有些你經常見到的人很耗費你的精力。

You might see that there are other people who you don't see very often but are so energizing when you're with them and that can give you some pointers in terms of changes you might like to make in your relationships.

你可能會發現，還有一些人你並不常見到，但當你和他們在一起時，他們卻能讓你充滿活力，這可以給你一些指引，讓你改變你的人際關係。

When we think about relationships that are energizing check in with yourself and think about whether you feel more positive, whether you feel more physical energy, whether you feel more open and more optimistic.

當我們思考那些能讓人充滿活力的人際關係時，不妨問問你自己，想想你是否感覺更積極了，是否感覺更有體力了，是否感覺更開放、更樂觀了。

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85 年的研究表明，幸福的真正關鍵是什麼 | Robert Waldinger：訪談全文 (What 85 years of research says is the real key to happiness | Robert Waldinger: Full Interview)

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