Name: 愛沙尼亞外長：『我們必須對俄羅斯施加更大壓力』！ (Estonian Foreign Minister: 'We must put more pressure on Russia')
Uploaded: 2026-02-16T17:09:04.000Z
Duration: 9 min 26 s

程度副詞

So we're here wrapping up a really eventful Munich security conference with the Foreign Minister of estonia, Marcus Sagner.

這次的慕尼黑安全會議真是精彩，我們也即將和愛沙尼亞的外交部長 Marcus Sagner 一起做個總結。

Mr. Sagner, thank you very much for joining DW.

Sagner部長，非常感謝您接受 DW 的訪問。

基礎被動語態

Now, Estonia, of course, is considered one of the most vulnerable members of NATO.

愛沙尼亞當然被認為是北大西洋公約組織中最脆弱的成員之一。

You know, considering the scenarios that people worry about in the future.

你知道，考慮到大家對未來可能發生的情況感到擔憂。

Potential Russian attack, you know, testing NATO's responses.

像是俄羅斯可能的攻擊，你知道，測試北大西洋公約組織的應對能力。

Do you feel reassured by what has happened this weekend, particularly the speech made by the US Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, that many talk as a sign of reassurance?

這週末發生的事情，特別是美國國務卿 Marco Rubio 的演講，很多人認為是令人安心的跡象，你對此感到放心嗎？

Actually, the story that Estonia is one of the most vulnerable countries in Europe is a fake news.

事實上，說愛沙尼亞是歐洲最脆弱的國家之一，這根本是假新聞。

We prepare for Russian probable invasion and deterrence is really strong.

我們為俄羅斯可能的入侵做好了準備，而且我們的威懾力非常強。

And essentially what I think what people see is that Estonia might be one of the first targets.

基本上，我認為大家看到的是，愛沙尼亞可能是首批目標之一。

Yeah, this is like a classical understanding about the invasion.

是的，這就像是對入侵的一種經典理解。

And if you see the map, that it's very logical.

如果你看到地圖，就會發現這非常合乎邏輯。

But in real life, what we do is that we are increasing heavily our capabilities.

但在現實生活中，我們正在大幅提升我們的能力。

I think that NATO is stronger than ever before.

我認為北大西洋公約組織比以往任何時候都更強大。

We have new defense plans already since Vilnius, and it means that we are not waiting.

自從維爾紐斯會議以來，我們已經有了新的防禦計劃，這意味著我們沒有在等待。

If Russia is coming to our territories and then we are fighting back, we will bring the war to Russia.

如果俄羅斯進犯我們的領土，我們就會反擊，把戰爭帶到俄羅斯。

Deep strike capabilities, it will be there.

But what we are concerned is actually the political will.

但我們真正擔心的是政治意願。

We are concerned about Europe, that if Europe is ready actually to.

我們擔心的是歐洲，看歐洲是否真的準備好。

To make a decision to stand up, to be stronger.

做出站出來、變得更強大的決定。

And it was exactly the topic what we were talking here in Munich all these days.

而這正是我們這幾天在慕尼黑一直討論的議題。

And as well, Secretary Rubio speech, I think that it was exactly the same, actually, that Vice President Wentz had a year ago.

還有，魯比歐國務卿的演講，我覺得跟副總統溫茲一年前說的其實是完全一樣的。

We have witnessed during this year many crazy momentums.

這一年來我們見證了許多瘋狂的時刻。

You know, Alaska meeting with Putin, Greenland pressure on Ukraine.

你知道，跟普丁的阿拉斯加會議，還有格陵蘭對烏克蘭的壓力。

And now just Secretary Rubio is more decent in the meaning of his language, but the message was the same, that US Needs stronger Europe.

而現在魯比歐國務卿的用詞比較得體，但訊息是一樣的，就是美國需要更強大的歐洲。

而且我們確實需要更強大的歐洲。

And I think that this Munich conference showed as well that Europe is waking up.

我認為這次慕尼黑會議也顯示出歐洲正在覺醒。

I mean, I found one comment really interesting by Elbridge Colby.

我是說，我發現艾爾布里奇·寇比的一句話很有意思。

So the American Under Secretary of War, sort of seen as the thinker in the Pentagon, who said in an event with a European think tank, he said that a certain amount of anxiety in Europe is salutary.

這位美國戰爭部副部長，算是五角大廈的智囊，他在一個歐洲智庫的活動上說，歐洲適度的焦慮是有益的。

So suggesting that there'd been almost too much reassurance from the United States in the past.

這是在暗示過去美國給予的保證是不是太多了。

Do you think it's good for Europe to be nervous?

你認為歐洲感到緊張是好事嗎？

And do you see this as part of America's communication strategy, like intentionally to rattle European nerves?

你覺得這是美國溝通策略的一部分嗎？像是故意要讓歐洲神經緊繃？

You know, from Estonian perspective, we have Been talking already maybe 20 years that Europe must do more.

你知道，從愛沙尼亞的角度來看，我們已經說了大概二十年了，歐洲必須做得更多。

Europe must have more self confidence and Europe must use the leverages.

歐洲必須更有自信，歐洲必須運用我們的籌碼。

What we have, not only about defense, what we normally think, that the US who is coming and take care of us.

我們擁有的，不只是我們通常認為的，由美國來照顧我們的國防。

So our relation with us as Europe, it is very strong, it will remain strong, but it is not any more unconditional.

所以我們和歐洲的關係，非常堅固，未來也會保持堅固，但不再是無條件的了。

There are conditions and that's why from our perspective, we cannot be nervous.

是有條件的，這也是為什麼從我們的角度來看，我們不能感到緊張。

I'm always telling our people as well, let's cool down, but let's use this pressure to wake up as well Europe because we have lots of privileges.

我也一直告訴我們的人，冷靜一點，但也要利用這個壓力來喚醒歐洲，因為我們有很多特權。

And now I think that the new goal as a vision, we have a lack of vision and self confidence in Europe.

我認為新的目標和願景，歐洲缺乏願景和自信。

The new vision must be let's unite Europe, let's.

新的願景必須是團結歐洲，讓我們。

I'm not talking about European Union, I'm talking about Ukraine, I'm talking about enlargement.

我不是說歐盟，我說的是烏克蘭，我說的是擴張。

I'm talking about more responsibilities on defence.

我說的是在國防上承擔更多責任。

And as well economically and somehow to be very cynical, the Greenland case, what President Trump said actually united us more than ever.

經濟上也是，而且說得難聽一點，格陵蘭事件，川普總統說的話反而比以往任何時候都更能團結我們。

And as well, European Union was able to say loudly that we are ready to act and we can respond to us.

歐盟也能大聲說，我們準備好採取行動，我們也能回應。

So it's not like the war or bad relations between Europe and us.

所以這不是歐洲和我們之間的戰爭或惡劣關係。

But we need to understand that it's not only about President Trump.

但我們需要明白，這不只是關於川普總統。

We will never see such a US anymore as it was in the past.

我們再也看不到過去那樣的美國了。

But we cannot just be in defensive position as Europe we must move forward.

但我們不能只採取防禦姿態，作為歐洲，我們必須向前邁進。

We have to have vision and self confidence.

而在這裡的慕尼黑，有不同的會議。

Well, let's look at a couple of examples where this European Union is European unity and collaboration is really questioned.

嗯，讓我們來看幾個歐洲聯盟、歐洲團結與合作受到真正質疑的例子。

One is that Emmanuel Macron, the French President sent one of his top diplomats recently for a meeting with the Russians.

其中一個是法國總統馬克宏，他最近派了一位頂級外交官去和俄羅斯會面。

This was criticized pretty widely within Europe.

這在歐洲內部受到了廣泛批評。

Do you think that was helpful or was that a bad mood?

你認為那是有幫助的，還是個壞主意？

We have been always in the position that talk to Putin without any like real plan is a mistake.

我們一直以來都認為，沒有任何實質計畫就和普丁談話是個錯誤。

We have been executing this kind of policy in Europe like decades.

我們在歐洲執行這種政策已經幾十年了。

Outcome was more war, more aggressive Russia.

結果是更多的戰爭，更具侵略性的俄羅斯。

So at the moment there's a totally wrong way to go to start finding some kind of special envoy for European Union, sending this envoy to Kremlin because this NY will come back with humiliated position and even weaker and also weakening as well Ukraine position.

所以目前這是一個完全錯誤的做法，去尋找歐盟的某種特使，派這位特使去克里姆林宮，因為這位特使回來時會處於一個屈辱的地位，而且烏克蘭的地位也會變得更弱。

But of course if President Macron wants to talk to Putin, this is, you know, he can do whatever.

但當然，如果馬克宏總統想和普丁談話，那是他的自由。

But the good thing is that this week, on Thursday, informal meeting of European leaders, there was no support for this Idea to start talking with Kremlin.

但好消息是，這週四，歐洲領導人舉行了一次非正式會議，沒有人支持這種與克里姆林宮談判的想法。

We must put more pressure on Russia not to talk with him.

我們必須對俄羅斯施加更多壓力，而不是與他談判。

So defense cooperation is seen as so important, but one of the flagship projects has been going on for years.

所以國防合作被認為非常重要，但其中一個旗艦項目已經進行了好幾年。

So this idea of future fighter, jet fighter program between France and Germany has been through incredible struggles and now there are doubts that it's ever really going to happen.

所以法國和德國之間的未來戰鬥機計畫，經歷了許多困難，現在大家都在懷疑它到底會不會真的實現。

What kind of a message does that send to you?

這會傳達出什麼樣的訊息給你？

So Estonia, obviously a small country that is dependent on NATO for its air defenses.

愛沙尼亞是一個小國家，它的空防非常依賴北大西洋公約組織。

What's your message to those big countries?

你對這些大國家有什麼話要說？

Do they need to pull themselves together and work out how to cooperate on these projects?

他們是不是需要振作起來，找出如何合作這些計畫的方法？

This is one example that this European collaboration sometimes is too difficult and there is different reasons why it is like this.

這就是一個例子，說明歐洲的合作有時候太困難了，而且有各種不同的原因導致這樣。

But we need to understand in Europe that it's not about a different national interest about defense industry.

但我們在歐洲需要明白，這不是關於國防產業不同的國家利益。

There is no competition between each other.

We actually need more support, more new innovation and Ukraine is our opportunity.

我們其實需要更多的支持、更多的創新，而烏克蘭是我們的機會。

I want to change this narrative in Europe that now we are telling that we support Europe because we need to help them.

我想改變歐洲現在的敘事，我們說支持歐洲是因為我們需要幫助他們。

No, in the future we need Ukraine in Europe, we need Ukraine capabilities, we need Ukraine innovation, we need Ukraine army, actually to have a peace guarantees for Europe.

不，未來我們需要烏克蘭在歐洲，我們需要烏克蘭的能力、烏克蘭的創新、烏克蘭的軍隊，才能真正為歐洲帶來和平的保障。

So we need to change this understanding as well that inside Europe we are competing, we are somehow struggling.

所以我們也需要改變這種理解，就是歐洲內部我們在競爭，我們在掙扎。

No, our global, global goal is actually to be more competitive.

不，我們全球的、整體的目標其實是更有競爭力。

And this is one example that we are spending lots of money, lots of time and outcome is mainly zero.

這就是一個例子，我們花了很多錢、很多時間，但結果幾乎是零。

We need to focus on what can we do in real life.

我們需要專注於我們在現實生活中能做些什麼。

And also first time ever, we have a lot of money coming into defence now.

而且，有史以來第一次，現在有很多錢投入國防。

We must be smart not to invest to the past, but actually invest to the future.

我們必須聰明地投資未來，而不是投資過去。

Be innovative and as well bring Ukraine in, because Ukraine change will change our attitude as well.

要有創新精神，也要把烏克蘭納入，因為烏克蘭的改變也會改變我們的態度。

One of the big kind of European discussions at the moment that's happening mostly behind closed doors is about whether Europe needs a more integrated nuclear deterrent, whether France and the UK need to extend deterrence to other European member states.

目前歐洲一個主要、大多在閉門進行的討論，是關於歐洲是否需要更整合的核威懾，以及法國和英國是否需要將威懾擴展到其他歐洲成員國。

Is that something that you feel that Estonia would benefit from or are you concerned by the implications of these very sensitive conversations?

你認為愛沙尼亞會從中受益嗎？還是你會擔心這些非常敏感的對話所帶來的影響？

We are in Estonia, very practical people.

我們是愛沙尼亞人，非常務實。

And for us the defense issue is not theoretical.

對我們來說，國防問題不是理論性的。

So we have been investing 21 years to NATO and NATO is actually the frame which is working, it's not theoretical thing.

所以我們已經在北大西洋公約組織投入了 21 年，而北大西洋公約組織實際上是正在運作的架構，不是理論性的東西。

These are the plans, commitments, protocols.

So we cannot start creating something different.

所以我們不能開始創造別的東西。

So I think that NATO umbrella about nuclear deterrence is something we need to invest heavily more.

我認為，北大西洋公約組織的核威懾傘是我們需要大力投入更多的地方。

But I'm not against to have these discussions that whether we could have the additional opportunity because France is the only country in Europe who has actually independent nuclear capabilities.

但我並不反對進行這些討論，關於我們是否能有額外的機會，因為法國是歐洲唯一擁有獨立核能力的國家。