Name: CNN記者尼克羅伯森離開俄羅斯，崩潰嘆息：三十年報導的絕望！ (After three decades covering Russia, CNN's Nic Robertson leaves in despair)
Uploaded: 2026-02-04T13:23:30.000Z
Duration: 5 min 58 s

CNN international diplomatic editor Nick Robertson is joining us right now.

CNN 國際外交編輯 Nick Robertson 現在加入我們。

You were in Moscow just a week or so ago, but now you're here.

你大概一週前還在莫斯科，但現在你來了這裡。

I want to read to our viewers a couple lines from this really powerful article you just posted on CNN.com I highly recommend was really moving.

我想為我們的觀眾唸出你剛在 CNN.com 發布的一篇非常感人的文章的幾句話，我非常推薦。

But let me give a couple lines from what you write.

Quote, after over three decades of covering Russia, I leave in despair with one man has extinguished the bright hope many once felt.

引用：「在報導俄羅斯數十年後，我帶著絕望離開，因為一個人熄滅了許多人曾經懷抱的閃耀希望。」

And then you add Russian President Vladimir Putin isn't just destroying Ukraine, but

然後你補充說，俄羅斯總統弗拉基米爾·普丁不只是在摧毀烏克蘭，

two nations condemning Russians to an isolation that they didn't necessarily choose.

而是讓兩個國家的人民譴責自己被孤立，而這並非他們所選擇。

Explain your thoughts because they are so, so powerful.

請解釋你的想法，因為它們真的非常、非常有力量。

These sanctions aim to bring Putin down or at least halt his invasion and war in Ukraine.

這些制裁的目標是扳倒普丁，或至少停止他在烏克蘭的入侵和戰爭。

They're going to affect the Russian population.

The Russian population, many of them don't support Putin and don't support the war, but

俄羅斯人民，其中許多人不支持普丁，也不支持戰爭，但是

they're going to suffer the economic consequences.

He's told his oligarchs who we know are getting sanctioned, are having their yacht seized in Europe, has told them to suck it up, be patriotic.

他告訴他的寡頭們，我們知道他們正遭受制裁，遊艇在歐洲被扣押，他要他們硬撐下去，要愛國。

But it's those other Russians who wanted a different future, a future integrated into Europe that he steadily stifled over the years.

但真正讓他感到憤怒的是那些渴望不同未來、渴望融入歐洲的俄羅斯人，而這個未來他多年來不斷地扼殺。

That's one part that made me, made me angry about the situation and the absolute wanton way that he has gone to war on a false pretext and continues to push that pretext and absolutely stomps on any voice of dissent.

這是我對現況感到憤怒的部分原因，他以虛假的藉口發動戰爭，並持續推動這個藉口，完全壓制任何異議的聲音，這種做法真是太過分了。

That's what when you're there watching it happen, that's what gets you because you were there back in 1990 as the Cold War was ending, the collapse of the Soviet Union.

當你在那裡親眼目睹時，這就是讓你感到難受的地方，因為你曾在1990年冷戰結束、蘇聯解體時在那裡。

I was there December 91, when the Soviet Union ended.

我在1991年12月蘇聯結束時也在那裡。

All of us were pretty upbeat that things were moving in a brand new direction.

我們當時都覺得事情正朝著全新的方向發展，心情很振奮。

我們確實有這種感覺，而且是理所當然的。

I remember we set up cnn, we set up a big live operation in the middle of Red Square, that fabled military parade ground right outside the Kremlin.

我記得我們設立了 CNN，在克里姆林宮外、傳說中的紅場閱兵場中間，設立了大型直播節目。

The Russians gave us or the Soviet Union gave us the opportunity to do that.

俄羅斯或蘇聯給了我們這個機會。

At that time, you had the sense that this was a country that wanted to integrate the West.

當時，你感覺到這個國家想要融入西方。

Fast forward a decade, Putin comes to power.

All those changes, all that alignment towards a European style democracy and integrating the rest of the world, he said that was wrong and he's reversed it, tried to reverse that position ever since with his different invasions and now in Ukraine.

所有這些改變，所有朝向歐洲式民主和融入世界的趨勢，他都說錯了，並且從那時起，透過他不同的入侵，尤其是在烏克蘭，他一直在試圖扭轉這個局面。

And that I think, you know, tells you because of his complete power There, it tells you that Russia is, at the moment, Putin.

我認為，因為他擁有絕對的權力，這就告訴了你，目前的俄羅斯就是普丁。

Putin put that he's trying to drag his country back to some imagined former glory.

普丁認為他正試圖將俄羅斯帶回某種想像中的昔日輝煌。

And that, at the moment, is to the detriment of the vast majority of Russians.

而且，目前這對絕大多數俄羅斯人來說都是不利的。

And certainly to the detriment of millions of people in Ukraine right now.

當然，這也對現在數百萬烏克蘭人民不利。

I originally thought, well, Putin, maybe he'll do something along the border like he did with Crimea.

我本來以為，嗯，普丁，也許他會在邊境做些什麼，就像他對待克里米亞那樣。

But I was surprised when he decided to go and attack all of Ukraine and trying to seek control of that country.

但我沒想到他會決定攻擊整個烏克蘭，並試圖控制那個國家。

That came as a surprise to me, and it did to me as well.

這讓我感到驚訝，也讓我感到意外。

We heard him threaten military technical measures if we don't get what we want with, with NATO.

我們聽到他威脅說，如果我們在北約方面得不到我們想要的，他就會採取軍事技術措施。

It needs to stop Ukraine becoming a member.

I think people thought this was just Putin wanting a voice at the table.

我認為大家覺得這只是普丁想在談判桌上發聲。

Once he got his voice at the table, he wouldn't follow through.

一旦他在談判桌上發了聲，他就不會真的採取行動。

But he's become more and more determined, and

we are now in a position of looking at the scenario going forward.

我們現在必須考慮接下來的發展。

Putin is taking tracts of land, territory, cities.

普丁正在佔領大片土地、領土和城市。

We've seen a mayor of a town marched off today.

我們今天看到一個鎮的鎮長被帶走了。

一個代理人被安插在鎮長的位置上。

The future, therefore, in Putin's mind in Ukraine, is going to be more of that.

是以，在普丁心中，烏克蘭的未來將會是這樣的情況更多。

And how do you get Putin then to let go of these places and give them back to the Ukrainians?

然後要怎麼讓普丁放開這些地方，還給烏克蘭人？

Because it's going to be a very, very long war for them.

因為這對他們來說會是一場非常、非常漫長的戰爭。

You were doing great reporting from Moscow over these past few months.

過去幾個月你在莫斯科做了很棒的報導。

Jill Dougherty was doing great reporting from Moscow.

Jill Dougherty 在莫斯科做了很棒的報導。

Everybody has basically fled, left Moscow out of fear that if they reported the truth about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, they could wind up in jail for 15 years.

基本上所有人都逃離了莫斯科，因為他們擔心如果報導俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭的真相，可能會被判入獄 15 年。

What's it like for the media in Moscow right now?

莫斯科現在媒體的處境怎麼樣？

There was a moment during the opening days of the war when you knew you had space to go out where the protests were happening and establish stand shoulder to shoulder with the protesters, elbow to elbow with the riot cops and know that they weren't going to round you up, that you were very unlikely to be thrown in the truck with the rest of the protesters.

在戰爭初期，有那麼一個時刻，你知道你可以自由地去到抗議發生的現場，和抗議者肩並肩、和鎮暴警察肘碰肘，而且知道你不會被逮捕，你非常不可能和抗議者一起被送上警車。

So when you're in that truck, Putin essentially has created a state where he can decide on what the rules and laws are going to be and he has a massive apparatus to follow through those rules.

所以當你被送上警車時，普丁實際上建立了一個國家，他可以決定規則和法律是什麼，並且他有一個龐大的機制來執行這些規則。

It's very much looking but looking like the sort of Germany under the Nazis before World War II.

這非常像是第二次世界大戰前的納粹德國。

還記得我們聽到的納粹說詞嗎？

Putin is creating the rules and there is a system and a law enforcement body and people that will follow those rules and that's what's happening.

普丁正在制定規則，而且有一個體系、執法機構和會遵守這些規則的人，這就是正在發生的事。

You really don't know when you're going to come out the end of that legal.

你真的不知道什麼時候才能結束這場法律訴訟。

You've been doing amazing reporting for us not just now but all of these years going back 30 years together.

你這些年來為我們做了非常棒的報導，不只是現在，而是回溯了三十年。

We did the first Gulf War as well here on CNN and we're grateful to you Nick for doing everything you're doing.

我們在CNN也報導了第一次波斯灣戰爭，非常感謝Nick你所做的一切。

And let me recommend to our viewers if they haven't read it go to CNN.com and read Nick Robertson's excellent, very powerful moving article about Russia CNN.com and.

另外，我想推薦我們的觀眾，如果還沒看過的話，請到CNN.com閱讀Nick Robertson那篇非常精彩、有力又感人的關於俄羅斯的文章，CNN.com。