Name: 美國與 TikTok 愛恨交織的關係 🌎 – BBC 世界之聲 Global Story Podcast (America’s love-hate relationship with TikTok - The Global Story podcast, BBC World Service)
Uploaded: 2026-01-25T08:04:20.000Z
Duration: 14 min 15 s

Hello, I'm lise doucet from the BBC world service.

哈囉，我是 BBC world service 的 lise doucet。

The United States has called China its most active and persistent cyber threat.

美國已經將中國稱為其最活躍、最持久的 cyber threat。

Its warning Beijing could interfere in the 2024 election.

並警告北京可能會幹預 2024 的選舉。

Washington has been consumed in a debate over the Chinese owned app TikTok.

華盛頓一直在爭論關於中國公司擁有的應用程式 TikTok。

Intelligence officials say the danger Chinese espionage and influence stretches far beyond the realm of social media.

情報官員表示，中國間諜活動和影響力的危險，遠遠超出了社群媒體的範圍。

How worried should Americans be about Chinese interference in this year's presidential election?

美國人對於中國幹預今年總統大選，應該要多擔心呢？

Joining us today is my colleague John Sudworth, a BBC North America correspondent based in in New York.

今天加入我們的是我的同事 John Sudworth，他是 BBC 駐紐約的北美記者。

Also joining us from New York is McKenna Kelly, senior politics writer for the news website wired.

另外一位加入我們，同樣來自紐約的，是 McKenna Kelly，她是新聞網站 wired 的資深政治記者。

I know a lot of our global story listeners will be TikTok users, but

我知道我們 global story 的聽眾裡，有很多人是 TikTok 的使用者，但是

所以請提醒我們，TikTok 有多受歡迎？

First, around the world, hundreds of millions of people use TikTok globally.

首先，在全球各地，有數億人在使用 TikTok。

In the United States, about 170 million Americans use it.

在美國，大約有 1.7 億美國人使用它。

And it's people of all ages, very young folks.

而且是各種年齡層的人，非常年輕的族群。

The app has a big reputation for talking to Gen Z and young people, but

這款應用程式以與 Z 世代和年輕人交流而聞名，但是

a recent Pew study actually pointed out that the average TikTok user is about 30 years old.

最近一項 Pew 研究指出，TikTok 的平均使用者年齡大約是 30 歲。

Of course, there's people of all ages on the app.

當然，應用程式裡有各種年齡層的人。

I was really struck by a Pew Research survey last year that found about One third of U.S.

去年一項 Pew Research 調查真的讓我印象深刻，發現大約有三分之一的美國

adults under the age of 30 not just use TikTok, they get their news from TikTok.

30 歲以下的成年人不僅使用 TikTok，他們還從 TikTok 獲取新聞。

And I think for a lot of us, we still associate it with, you know, dancing dogs and fashion videos, but

我想對我們很多人來說，我們還是把它跟跳舞的狗狗和時尚影片聯想在一起，但是

it's not, is it at this point, it's more of a short form YouTube where you can find just about anything on the app.

事實並非如此，對吧？現在它更像是一個短影音版的 YouTube，你可以在上面找到幾乎任何東西。

There's of course, news, content, the dance content you mentioned, but other things as well.

當然，裡面有新聞、各種內容，還有你提到的跳舞內容，但也有其他東西。

Like I love using the app to find crochet patterns.

我喜歡用這個應用程式找鉤針編織的圖案。

上面有很多鉤針編織的創作者。

Those are some of the people that I follow.

No, I'm not into the TikTok crocheting community.

不，我對 TikTok 的鉤針編織社群沒興趣。

I don't think that is the part of TikTok that the US political establishment is all that concerned about.

我想這不是美國政界真正擔心的 TikTok 的部分。

But you know, as a journalist here in America, you can't help but be honest.

但你知道，作為一個在美國的記者，你不能不誠實。

What is abundantly clear that a pretty well always divided House of Representatives voted with overwhelming bipartisan support to demand that TikTok's Chinese parent company, ByteDance, either sell TikTok or see it banned in the United States.

非常清楚的是，一個 pretty well always divided 的眾議院以壓倒性的跨黨派支持投票，要求 TikTok 的中國母公司 ByteDance，要嘛出售 TikTok，要嘛就在美國被禁。

Why do you think suddenly TikTok has united the House of Representatives?

你認為 TikTok 為什麼突然讓眾議院團結起來了？

The whole issue of China is, if you like, a rare space of bipartisanship within a very divided US Political landscape that has shifted very quickly over the past sort of few years or so from a position where most US Administrations going back, you know, Clinton, Bush, Obama, took a relatively pragmatic view towards China.

整個中國議題，如果你願意的話，是在一個非常分裂的美國政治格局中，少數能獲得跨黨派支持的空間，這在過去幾年裡轉變非常快，從過去像是柯林頓、布希、歐巴馬政府時期，對中國採取相對務實的態度。

From the moment of Donald Trump's election, that began to shift, and

從唐納·川普當選的那一刻起，情況就開始轉變，

the whole political spectrum has moved very dramatically.

整個政治光譜也發生了巨大的變化。

But McCann, I was really struck when opposition was expressed to the bill.

但是 McCann，當有人對這項法案表達反對意見時，我真的感到很驚訝。

It was the business community saying, my business is going to go under.

是商界人士說，我的生意要垮了。

TikTok's for you page is a very accurate algorithm.

TikTok 的「為你推薦」頁面演算法非常精準。

And if someone is selling whatever they're selling, T shirts that have a specific slogan on it or, I don't know, hand soaps or all kinds of, for me, crochet patterns on the TikTok shop, it's very easy to do and it's very easy to find your audience on TikTok, the people who want to buy those things.

如果有人在賣 T 恤，上面印著特定標語，或是賣手工皁、鉤針圖案等等，在 TikTok 小店裡，要找到想買這些東西的受眾，其實非常容易。

So, yeah, there's many, many sneakers, small businesses, whether it's just someone in their house making little soaps that they want to sell to even bigger enterprises like huge makeup companies that sell on TikTok shop as well.

所以，很多賣運動鞋、小生意，不管是家裡製作小肥皂想賣的人，甚至是像大型化妝品公司這種在 TikTok 小店販售的企業，都受益於此。

If you do ban TikTok, you make the others already powerful even more powerful.

如果你們禁止 TikTok，那些已經很強大的平臺只會變得更強大。

And McKenna, Donald Trump said banning TikTok would make Facebook more powerful.

McKenna，唐納·川普說禁止 TikTok 會讓 Facebook 更強大。

And he's already, at least on the day he spoke, said that Facebook was the enemy of, of the people.

而且他至少在他發言的那天，就說過 Facebook 是人民的敵人。

They must be just sitting back and watching this and waiting.

Meta isn't exactly just standing by either.

In 2018, I believe it was reported that Facebook was paying a GOP marketing firm called Targeted victory to plant op eds in newspapers across the country that made TikTok look really bad.

我記得 2018 年有報導指出，Facebook 曾付錢給一家名為 Targeted Victory 的共和黨行銷公司，在全國各地的報紙上刊登社論，讓 TikTok 看起來很糟糕。

They were part of this series of, if you remember, like pointing out the tide pod challenge and all these dangerous challenges that were on TikTok.

他們是這系列行動的一部分，如果還記得的話，像是指出「洗衣球挑戰」和 TikTok 上所有這些危險的挑戰。

Of spreading a lot of this in local newspapers.

在地方報紙上散播了許多這類訊息。

So the bill has been approved by the House of Representatives.

所以這項法案已經由眾議院準許了。

Then it goes to the senate and could take time there.

接著會送交參議院，在那裡可能會花一些時間。

接著可能會面臨法律上的挑戰。

So will there ever be a day where this will actually go through?

那麼，這項法案真的會通過的一天會到來嗎？

The question is not whether you can ban TikTok, but

問題不在於你能不能禁止 TikTok，而是

whether you can ban TikTok without undermining your own values of freedom of speech.

在於你能不能在不損害自己言論自由價值觀的情況下禁止 TikTok。

And there will be almost certainly room there for TikTok to challenge this on those grounds.

TikTok 幾乎肯定有空間可以從這些方面來挑戰這項法案。

I think a good example is to bring up that, that Montana, the state of Montana here in the US tried to ban TikTok last year.

我認為一個很好的例子是，美國的蒙大拿州去年就試圖禁止 TikTok。

They passed a bill, it was signed by the governor.

他們通過了一項法案，州長也簽署了。

And then TikTok and a group of creators sued the state of Montana saying that it was in violation of the First Amendment.

然後 TikTok 和一群創作者起訴蒙大拿州，說這違反了第一修正案。

That case hasn't been totally resolved yet, but

這個案子還沒有完全解決，但是

the argument was valid enough for a federal judge late last year to at least file an injunction so it wouldn't go into place until it is totally resolved in the courts.

這個論點足夠有力，聯邦法官在去年底至少發布了禁令，讓法案在法院完全解決前不會生效。

Do we actually know what, if anything, the Chinese government is doing when it comes to TikTok?

我們真的知道中國政府在 TikTok 上做了什麼嗎？

Last week, I know that the House and Senate were briefed on security threats related to TikTok before that vote that took place.

我知道上週眾議院和參議院在表決前，聽取了關於 TikTok 安全威脅的簡報。

But some people came out of it saying that they felt extremely troubled.

但有些人出來說他們感到非常不安。

And other lawmakers came out of it saying that this wasn't really anything that we hadn't heard before.

而其他一些議員則表示，這其實沒什麼我們沒聽過的。

Earlier this year, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence released a report calling China, and

今年稍早，國家情報總監辦公室發布了一份報告，稱中國是

I quote, the most active and persistent cyber threat to the US Government, private sector and critical infrastructure networks.

我引用，對美國政府、私營部門和關鍵基礎設施網路最活躍、最持續的 cyber threat。

It warned of Chinese hacking and even more of espionage, and

報告警告了中國的駭客攻擊，甚至還有間諜活動，並且

said Beijing wanted to sow doubts about US Leadership and undermine democracy.

表示北京希望對美國領導層產生懷疑，並破壞民主。

威脅真的有那麼大、那麼嚴重嗎？

Well, in general terms, I don't think it is a controversial thing to say that China has an interest in undermining US Democracy.

嗯，總體來說，我認為說中國有興趣破壞美國的民主，這並不是一個有爭議的說法。

It says so itself to a large extent, from the chairman of the Communist Party, Xi Jinping down.

在很大程度上，他們自己也這麼說，從共產黨主席習近平開始。

They have made it very clear that they see themselves as in a sort of existential battle with Western values.

他們非常清楚地表示，他們認為自己正處於與西方價值觀的一場生存之戰中。

And in that context, we've seen over the past few years, decade or so, right across the full kind of array of tools that the Chinese propaganda machine has at its disposal, efforts to push that message not only to its own citizens in China, but

在這種情況下，我們在過去幾年，大約十年左右，看到中國的宣傳機器動用了各種工具，試圖將這個訊息傳達給中國國內的公民，但

to take that message to global audiences as well.

也把這個訊息傳達給全球的觀眾。

You know, as John pointed out, they're only targeting TikTok because it has a Chinese owner.

你知道，就像John指出的那樣，他們之所以只針對TikTok，是因為它有中國公司擁有的應用程式。

Although ByteDance has tried to separate itself from, from, from China.

儘管字節跳動試圖與中國劃清界線。

There is a discussion about the tech giants and how they control so much, and

有在討論科技巨頭以及他們如何掌控這麼多東西，而且

it seems not many people are willing or able to do anything about them.

似乎沒有多少人願意或能夠對他們做些什麼。

I feel like the Congress has been in this big discussion about data privacy and data security, not just for companies stationed abroad, but

我覺得國會一直在針對數據隱私和數據安全進行大規模討論，不僅是針對設在海外的公司，還有

US based companies like Meta, Twitter, now X Instagram, all kinds of different platforms.

像Meta、Twitter、現在的X、Instagram等美國公司，各種不同的平臺。

And I think the last time this conversation really heated up around privacy was 2018 and the fallout from Cambridge Analytica with Facebook.

我認為上次關於隱私的討論真正白熱化是在2018年，當時Facebook爆發了劍橋分析事件。

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美國與 TikTok 愛恨交織的關係 🌎 – BBC 世界之聲 Global Story Podcast (America’s love-hate relationship with TikTok - The Global Story podcast, BBC World Service)

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