Name: 澤連斯基為何在反腐改革上反其道而行之 | DW News (Why Zelenskyy reversed course on anti-corruption reform | DW News)
Uploaded: 2025-07-25T17:05:43.000Z
Duration: 16 min 43 s

情態副詞

Ukraine's anti-corruption infrastructure was actually functioning very well.

烏克蘭的反腐敗基礎設施實際上運作良好。

程度副詞

The speed and the changes in the law, those are concerning and I have not seen a good explanation for those and I think that is what has really riled up the public.

速度和法律的變化，這些都令人擔憂，我沒有看到一個很好的解釋，我認為這才是真正激怒公眾的原因。

This week, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky faced huge protests after rushing through a law which stripped two anti-corruption agencies of their independence.

本週，烏克蘭總統沃洛德梅爾-澤連斯基（Volodymyr Zelensky）匆忙通過了一項法律，剝奪了兩個反腐機構的獨立性，是以遭到了巨大的抗議。

He has since backtracked, telling Ukrainians their protests are not falling on deaf ears.

此後，他又出爾反爾，告訴烏克蘭人他們的抗議並沒有被置若罔聞。

I asked Anastasia Fedyk, Assistant Professor of Finance at the University of Berkeley and a member of the non-profit Economist for Ukraine, to explain what's happened.

我請伯克利大學金融學助理教授、非營利組織 "烏克蘭經濟學家 "成員阿納斯塔西婭-費迪克（Anastasia Fedyk）解釋一下發生了什麼。

President Zelensky has responded to the protests inside Ukraine and concerns raised by foreign allies and has now proposed a new draft law that would safeguard the independence of the two anti-corruption agencies, the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, which handles investigations and the Special Anti-Corruption Prosecutor.

澤連斯基總統對烏克蘭國內的抗議和外國盟友提出的擔憂做出了迴應，目前已提出一項新的法律草案，以保障兩個反腐敗機構（負責調查的烏克蘭國家反腐敗局和反腐敗特別檢察官）的獨立性。

Now, the exact details are not yet fully public.

目前，具體細節尚未完全公開。

However, what we do know is that the agencies, NABU and SAP, have issued statements that they were consulted in the writing of the new draft law and that they do appear satisfied that the proposal would ensure their independence and would correct the issues from Tuesday's law.

不過，我們所知道的是，國家廣播聯盟和 SAP 這兩個機構已發表聲明，表示在起草新法律草案時徵求了它們的意見，而且它們似乎對該提案將確保其獨立性並糾正週二法律中的問題感到滿意。

Before the new draft law was announced, I asked Anastasia to tell us about the role of Ukraine's anti-corruption agencies and what might have motivated Zelensky to revoke their independence in the first place.

在新法律草案公佈之前，我請阿納斯塔西婭談談烏克蘭反腐機構的作用，以及當初是什麼促使澤連斯基取消了這些機構的獨立性。

Let me give a little bit of background first, just to kind of set the stage of what Ukraine's anti-corruption infrastructure actually looks like, because it is a pretty unique setup.

首先，請允許我介紹一下烏克蘭反腐敗基礎設施的背景情況，因為這是一個非常獨特的機構。

So after 2014, when Ukraine has taken that break, with Russia moved closer to the EU and really tried to battle those issues of corruption and government inefficiency, Ukraine set up a dedicated anti-corruption ecosystem, which includes four key bodies.

是以，在 2014 年之後，當烏克蘭與俄羅斯一起向歐盟靠攏，並真正試圖與這些腐敗和政府效率低下的問題作鬥爭時，烏克蘭建立了一個專門的反腐敗生態系統，其中包括四個關鍵機構。

So there is the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, which handles investigations into potential corruption cases.

是以，烏克蘭國家反貪局負責調查潛在的腐敗案件。

There's a specialized anti-corruption prosecution body, which does the prosecution of these cases.

有一個專門的反腐敗檢察機構負責起訴這些案件。

The High Anti-Corruption Court of Ukraine, which is actually a dedicated court system to corruption cases.

烏克蘭高級反腐敗法院，這實際上是一個專門審理腐敗案件的法院系統。

And then finally, the National Agency on Corruption Prevention, which of course does monitoring and prevention of potential cases from arising.

最後是國家預防腐敗局，該機構當然負責監測和預防潛在案件的發生。

These agencies were deliberately separated from the standard sort of chain of prosecution and commitment.

這些機構故意與標準的起訴和承諾鏈分開。

So they were not under the Office of the Prosecutor General until this week, effectively.

是以，直到本週，他們實際上才隸屬於總檢察長辦公室。

The appointment of leadership positions to these agencies was basically also independent.

這些機構上司職位的任命基本上也是獨立的。

These were not political appointees, they were not appointed by the president.

這些人不是政治任命的，不是由總統任命的。

They were made through multi-stakeholder processes that would involve international experts, civil society, and so on.

它們是通過多方利益相關者進程制定的，其中包括國際專家、民間社會等。

So really a high level of independence that we do not actually see in other countries.

是以，我們在其他國家實際上看不到這種高度的獨立性。

So US, Germany, France, Italy, they would not have that kind of setup.

是以，美國、德國、法國、意大利都不會有這樣的設置。

So it was a system that was specifically designed to be structurally insulated from any political influence.

是以，這是一個專門設計的系統，在結構上不受任何政治影響。

And the law that we saw quickly pass through this week basically reversed that insulation, that separation for two of the agencies.

而我們看到本週迅速通過的法律基本上扭轉了這種隔閡，即兩個機構的分離。

For the investigation agencies, so the NABU, and the prosecution agencies, so the SAPO.

對於調查機構來說，所以是 NABU，而對於起訴機構來說，所以是 SAPO。

The High Court and the prevention agencies remained as they were.

高等法院和預防機構依然如故。

The issue is that this was done abruptly.

It was done not following sort of proper protocol.

這樣做並沒有遵循某種適當的協議。

For example, the law was kind of stated to concern legal matters related to missing persons in Ukraine.

例如，該法律涉及與烏克蘭失蹤人員有關的法律問題。

That's how the law was written in its first reading back in January.

今年 1 月，該法律在一讀時就是這麼寫的。

And then the amendments effectively added these parts where the Prosecutor General, who is a political appointee, would have these new powers over the investigation and the prosecution corruption-related bodies.

然後，修正案有效地增加了這些內容，即作為政治任命的總檢察長將擁有調查和起訴腐敗相關機構的新權力。

Although opposition parties in Parliament were sort of already trying to speak out against it and then signed pretty much immediately.

雖然議會中的反對黨已經試圖發表反對意見，但幾乎是立即就簽署了。

And of course, that abruptness has caused quite a discontent, quite a lot of protest in Ukraine, which has a very engaged civil society and very engaged politically public.

當然，這種突然性在烏克蘭引起了相當大的不滿和抗議。

Tell us a little bit about what these two agencies were doing in the decades since they were founded.

請向我們介紹一下這兩個機構在成立後的幾十年裡都在做些什麼。

What kind of schemes have they been uncovering and what might have motivated Zelensky to place them under government control?

他們揭露了什麼樣的陰謀，是什麼促使澤倫斯基將他們置於政府控制之下？

So quite a lot of activity, actually, in these agencies.

是以，這些機構的活動其實相當多。

They have dealt with a number of really high profile cases over the years that were uncovered that were prosecuted by these agencies, including politicians that would be aligned with the leading party.

這些年來，他們處理了許多由這些機構揭露並起訴的備受矚目的案件，其中包括與上司黨派結盟的政客。

So in that sense, Ukraine's anti-corruption infrastructure was actually functioning very well.

是以，從這個意義上說，烏克蘭的反腐敗基礎設施實際上運作得非常好。

So if we're going to compare it to peers, including leading developed economies, there's not always that level of accountability.

是以，如果我們要與同行（包括領先的發達經濟體）進行比較，並不總是有那麼高的問責水準。

So basically, immediate response in terms of being let go from positions, being prosecuted, serving prison sentences even, as we've seen achieved in Ukraine through these and other agencies.

是以，從根本上說，我們可以通過這些機構和其他機構在烏克蘭看到的那樣，立即做出迴應，讓他們離職、被起訴、甚至服刑。

Again, the civil society in Ukraine is very engaged, very sensitive to any kind of before 2014.

同樣，烏克蘭民間社會的參與度非常高，對 2014 年之前的任何事件都非常敏感。

So this was really set up as kind of a state of the art infrastructure to battle that.

是以，這裡實際上是為解決這一問題而建立的最先進的基礎設施。

And what we've seen is, for example, the chief justice of the Supreme Court was caught taking bribes.

我們看到的情況是，例如，最高法院首席法官受賄被抓。

I think it was around $2 to $3 million in 2023.

我想，2023 年大約需要 200 萬至 300 萬美元。

He was immediately dismissed from his position and he was being prosecuted.

So in that sense, the response was actually in many ways more immediate, stronger and functioned, I would say, even better than we see in Europe and the US.

是以，從這個意義上說，在許多方面，反應實際上比我們在歐洲和美國看到的更直接、更有力，甚至可以說運作得更好。

So this was an incredibly effective system.

是以，這是一個非常有效的系統。

Then all of a sudden, a law was introduced at 8 a.m.

然後，突然在上午 8 點出臺了一項法律。

Honestly, I'm not privy to President Zelensky's thinking, unfortunately.

老實說，很遺憾，我並不瞭解澤倫斯基總統的想法。

I have spoken to both current members of parliament who were there, to protesters who are out there now, former civil servants, as well as civil society leaders.

我既與當時在場的現任議員交談過，也與現在在場的抗議者、前公務員以及民間社會領袖交談過。

And there are conflicting narratives around the motivations for sort of what might have caused the move.

關於這一舉動的動機，各方說法不一。

Of course, the stated motivation includes ensuring that there aren't Russian influences in these bodies.

當然，所宣稱的動機包括確保這些機構不受俄羅斯的影響。

Some other operational considerations include things like the difficulty or inefficiency or the additional operational overhead of effectively having two prosecutor generals and managing these two separate verticals, one specifically for corruption matters, one for everything else.

其他一些業務方面的考慮因素包括，由兩名總檢察長有效管理這兩個獨立的垂直部門（一個專門負責腐敗事務，一個負責其他事務）會帶來困難、效率低下或額外的業務開銷等問題。

Again, this is something that is above and beyond what we see in other legal systems.

同樣，這也是我們在其他法律體系中所看不到的。

So there is kind of a little more overhead there.

But of course, the kind of the speed and the changes in the law, those are concerning.

當然，這種速度和法律的變化也令人擔憂。

And I frankly have not seen a good explanation for those.

坦率地說，我還沒有看到一個很好的解釋。

And I think that is what has really riled up the public.

我認為這才是真正激怒公眾的原因。

And I think an explanation is owed to the public, as well as to the international community.

我認為應該向公眾和國際社會作出解釋。

Yeah, I want to talk a little bit more about that response.

You've mentioned the huge protesters, levels of protests that turn out on the street.

你提到了大量的抗議者，以及在街頭舉行的各種級別的抗議活動。

There's been criticism from European allies, as well, who say this damages the country's bid for EU membership.

歐洲盟國也提出了責備，認為這有損於該國爭取加入歐盟的努力。

Do you think Zelensky expected this level of response?

你認為澤倫斯基預料到會有這樣的反應嗎？

Again, the decision boggles me, so it's difficult to imagine what exactly, what kind of thinking was going through, because it does seem a natural response inside Ukraine.

同樣，這個決定也讓我摸不著頭腦，所以很難想象到底經歷了怎樣的思考，因為這似乎是烏克蘭內部的自然反應。

So again, Ukrainian civil society is incredibly engaged and has incredibly high standards that they hold their own government to.

是以，烏克蘭民間社會的參與度非常高，他們對本國政府的要求也非常高。

It's sort of like the single thing that Ukrainian civil society will most easily criticize or kind of get upset at is their own government.

烏克蘭民間社會最容易責備或不滿的就是自己的政府。

And the reason, of course, is history, is the years of Soviet rule and kind of before that, the Russian rule, and then the pro-Russian presidents that they had before 2014.

原因當然是歷史，是多年的蘇聯統治和之前的俄羅斯統治，以及 2014 年之前的親俄總統。

So they've had so many bad experiences that they're incredibly easy to rile up.

是以，他們有太多糟糕的經歷，非常容易被激怒。

And I mean, last week, I was speaking to the BBC about the potential, right, attempts by the Trump administration to bring the Federal Reserve kind of more under, right, control and less independence.

我的意思是，上週，我在接受英國廣播公司（BBC）採訪時談到，特朗普政府可能會試圖讓美聯儲受到更多的控制，減少獨立性。

And of course, we do not see that kind of response in the US to potential concentration of US government as we do in Ukraine.

當然，我們在美國也看不到像在烏克蘭那樣對美國政府的潛在集中作出反應。

And the reason is differential kind of trust in government is that in the US people's default trust in Ukraine, they are very demanding.

對政府的信任之所以不同，是因為在美國，人們默認對烏克蘭的信任，他們的要求很高。

And so I think it's, to me, puzzling that he would, that President Zelensky would not have anticipated this type of response.

是以，我認為他、澤倫斯基總統沒有預料到會有這種反應，這讓我很費解。

And of course, trust within the country then spills over, right, to perceptions abroad.

當然，國內的信任也會影響到國外的看法。

And so in that sense, it's also not at all surprising that he would hear the discontent from his foreign partners as well.

是以，從這個意義上說，他聽到外國夥伴的不滿也一點都不奇怪。

Zelensky has now promised to introduce a new bill to strengthen the rule of law in Ukraine.

澤連斯基現已承諾提出一項新法案，以加強烏克蘭的法治。

What would that piece of legislation have to contain to satisfy you that corruption is being taken seriously?

這項立法必須包含哪些內容，才能讓你確信腐敗問題正在受到重視？

So the question here is to satisfy me or to satisfy everybody else in the Ukrainian civil society.

是以，這裡的問題是讓我滿意還是讓烏克蘭民間社會的其他人滿意。

And because, as I pointed out, I think in many ways, corruption in Ukraine was taken more seriously than in many places abroad.

而且，正如我所指出的，我認為在許多方面，烏克蘭的腐敗問題比國外許多地方都要嚴重。

But the reason for that is history and the fact that Ukrainians are incredibly sensitive to these matters because of their traumatic experiences in the past.

但造成這種情況的原因是歷史，以及烏克蘭人由於過去的創傷經歷而對這些問題異常敏感。

And so I think that is a big issue, is the kind of the potential damage to trust with the public inside Ukraine.

是以，我認為這是一個大問題，是對烏克蘭國內公眾信任的潛在損害。

And that, I think, will take a little bit more to repair than a quick backtrack.

我認為，這需要更多的時間來修補，而不是快速回溯。

I think they're going to be the people protesting or the people who are now kind of having potential issues and worries about what their government is effectively doing are going to need to be very careful in terms of taking a look at that new law that's being drafted and of how much does it insulate these agencies and basically also to what extent does it prevent the procedural issues that we've seen?

我認為，他們將是抗議者，或者是現在對政府的有效作為有潛在問題和擔憂的人，他們需要非常謹慎地看待正在起草的新法律，看看它在多大程度上保護了這些機構，以及基本上在多大程度上防止了我們已經看到的程序問題？

Because I don't think it's necessarily that corruption is somehow an issue that's greater in Ukraine than in other countries.

因為我不認為烏克蘭的腐敗問題一定比其他國家嚴重。

What I personally have been worried about this week is the way that the law was passed, right, this abruptness, the speed, the lack of clear motivation and reasoning behind it.

本週我個人一直擔心的是法律的通過方式，對吧，這種突然性、速度，以及背後缺乏明確的動機和理由。

And I think that is something that might run a little bit deeper in terms of not just overhauling a single law, but also going a little bit further in terms of how do we ensure that the rule of law and the government function and the trust that the population has in that gets restored and remains strong.

我認為，這可能是一個更深層次的問題，不僅僅是全面修訂一部法律，還需要進一步研究如何確保法治和政府職能以及民眾對法治和政府的信任得到恢復並保持穩固。

You mentioned the comparison with other countries, but Ukraine really does rank very low on measurements of corruption.

您提到了與其他國家的比較，但烏克蘭的腐敗程度確實很低。

First of all, a lot of those measures reliance on perception indices.

首先，這些措施很多都依賴於感知指數。

And as I mentioned, Ukrainians are extremely sensitive and they're extremely demanding to their own governments.

正如我提到的，烏克蘭人非常敏感，他們對自己的政府要求極高。

So basic things like in my son's elementary school in the US, there is a separate little nonprofit foundation attached to the school where the parents can fundraise for additional resources for the school.

是以，像我兒子在美國上的小學這樣的基本事情，學校會有一個獨立的非營利性小基金會，家長可以在那裡為學校籌集額外的資源。

Something like that in Ukraine would be viewed very critically, but it's completely normal in the US.

在烏克蘭，這樣的事情會受到嚴厲批評，但在美國卻完全正常。