Today, Italy brings in some of the most stringent surrogacy laws in the world.

如今，意大利擁有世界上最嚴格的代孕法律。

Carrying a child for someone else could be seen as the ultimate selfless act.

為他人懷胎可以被視為無私的終極行為。

It's also a booming global industry, generating billions of dollars every year.

這也是一個蓬勃發展的全球性產業，每年創造數十億美元的收入。

Surrogacy is growing in popularity, but while demand is rising, more and more countries are taking steps to ban surrogacy completely.

代孕越來越受歡迎，但在需求上升的同時，越來越多的國家正在採取措施全面禁止代孕。

Most recently, Italy, where the far-right government has passed a new law that makes surrogacy a universal crime, putting it on the same level as child abuse and human trafficking.

最近，意大利極右翼政府通過了一項新法律，將代孕定為普遍犯罪，將其與虐待兒童和販賣人口同等對待。

So, is surrogacy exploitative or empowering?

那麼，代孕是剝削還是賦權？

And how easy is it to balance the desire of gay or infertile couples who want to become parents, with the rights of the women who the children?

要在同志或不育夫婦希望成為父母的願望與生兒育女的婦女的權利之間取得平衡，談何容易？

With me today is the BBC's Sophia Battisa, who is the BBC's gender and identity correspondent.

今天和我在一起的是英國廣播公司（BBC）的性別與身份問題記者索菲亞-巴提薩（Sophia Battisa）。

Sophia, before we get started, I think we need to acknowledge it's such a divisive issue globally, because it raises not just legal questions, but for a lot of people, they're ethical questions, as well at the very heart of the concept of surrogacy.

索菲亞，在我們開始之前，我認為我們需要承認這是一個在全球範圍內都有分歧的問題，因為它不僅引發了法律問題，而且對很多人來說，這也是道德問題，是代孕概念的核心。

But I think some people maybe are not clear about the different types of surrogacy that exist at the moment.

但我認為，有些人可能還不清楚目前存在的不同類型的代孕。

Can you explain for us?

你能為我們解釋一下嗎？

Surrogacy is when a woman carries a baby for another couple.

代孕是指婦女為另一對夫婦懷胎。

And there are two types of surrogacy, traditional and gestational.

代孕分為傳統代孕和妊娠代孕兩種。

And the main difference is whether the surrogate, the woman carrying the baby, is biologically related to that baby.

主要區別在於代孕者（即懷有嬰兒的婦女）是否與嬰兒有血緣關係。

If you look at gestational surrogacy, this is when the woman carrying the baby is not related.

如果你看一下妊娠代孕，這是指懷有嬰兒的婦女沒有血緣關係。

The embryo is created using IVF, and this is done using eggs from a donor or from the woman that has commissioned the surrogacy, the future mother.

胚胎是通過體外受精產生的，使用的卵子來自捐贈者或委託代孕的婦女，即未來的母親。

This embryo is then transferred into the surrogate's uterus.

然後將胚胎移植到代孕者的子宮內。

And this is the most common type of surrogacy because it's easier legally, and it's also easier emotionally, in a way, for everybody involved.

這是最常見的代孕方式，因為它在法律上更容易，在情感上也更容易，在某種程度上，對每個參與其中的人來說都是如此。

The second, the other kind of surrogacy, traditional surrogacy, is when the surrogate provides her own eggs.

第二種是傳統代孕，即代孕者提供自己的卵子。

So she's genetically related to the baby and has to give up parental rights.

是以，她與孩子有遺傳關係，必須放棄做父母的權利。

Italy has a far-right government now, and they've introduced this new law that expands the country's existing ban on surrogacy.

意大利現在有一個極右翼政府，他們出臺了這項新法律，擴大了該國現有的代孕禁令。

They call it a universal crime.

他們稱之為普遍犯罪。

They do, and a universal crime is a crime that is so serious that it's prosecuted even when it's committed abroad.

的確如此，普遍犯罪是指嚴重到即使在國外犯下也會被起訴的罪行。

This new ban would make surrogacy punishable in Italy.

這項新禁令將使代孕在意大利受到懲罰。

This is the most far-reaching ban in the world, and there's no other country that does this.

這是世界上影響最深遠的禁令，沒有其他國家這樣做。

And the punishment would be quite severe.

而且懲罰會相當嚴厲。

I mean, we're talking about up to two years in jail and a fine of up to one million euros.

我的意思是，我們談論的是長達兩年的監禁和高達一百萬歐元的罰款。

This is a massive culture war.

這是一場大規模的文化戰爭。

You've got the deputy prime minister, Matteo Salvini, calling this a uterus for rent, women used as cash machines.

副總理馬泰奧-薩爾維尼（Matteo Salvini）稱這是 "子宮出租"，婦女被當作提款機。

You've got some MPs saying that this is a crime worse than paedophilia.

有些議員說這是比戀童癖更嚴重的罪行。

It's the right-wing government asserting its conservative credentials.

這是右翼政府在宣揚自己的保守主義。

Some people have said this law has been brought about and is really targeting LGBTQ plus families.

有些人說，這項法律的出臺確實是針對 LGBTQ 加家庭的。

Why did they say that, Sophia?

他們為什麼這麼說，索菲亞？

They see this as a wider attack on the LGBT community in Italy.

他們認為這是對意大利男女同志、雙性戀和變性者群體更廣泛的攻擊。

And I mean, it's worth pointing out that most people that use surrogacy are heterosexual.

我的意思是，值得指出的是，大多數使用代孕的人都是異性戀。

We don't have the exact figures, they don't exist, but people have told me it's about 90%.

我們沒有確切的數字，因為它們並不存在，但有人告訴我大約有 90%。

A heterosexual couple that goes abroad to have a baby through surrogacy and then comes back, they can hide it.

一對異性夫婦去國外代孕生子，然後回來，他們可以隱瞞。

And they often do.

他們經常這樣做。

They can fall under the radar.

它們會被忽視。

But two gay men, they can't hide because they need a third party to have children.

但兩個同性戀者，他們無法躲藏，因為他們需要第三者來生孩子。

And even before the ban, it was very hard for gay couples to have children.

即使在禁令頒佈之前，同志夫婦也很難有孩子。

In Italy, you're not allowed to adopt.

在意大利，你不能收養孩子。

That is often the argument that is used, that someone doesn't necessarily have the right to have their own biological child, they can go and adopt.

這就是人們經常使用的論點，即某人不一定有權擁有自己的親生孩子，他們可以去領養。

But in Italy, not possible.

但在意大利，這是不可能的。

Exactly.

沒錯。

It's actually illegal.

這實際上是違法的。

It's not allowed.

這是不允許的。

In Italy, a country where the Catholic Church is still very influential, and so surrogacy for years was the only option for gay couples to have children.

在意大利，天主教會的影響力仍然很大，是以代孕多年來一直是同志夫婦生育孩子的唯一選擇。

And that's why they see this new ban as a personal attack against them.

是以，他們認為這項新禁令是對他們的人身攻擊。

And you managed to earn the trust of some gay couples in Italy to speak to them about their experiences and what they were going through.

你還設法贏得了意大利一些同志伴侶的信任，向他們講述了他們的經歷和遭遇。

Maurizio and Mauro and Claudio and Davide.

毛裡奇奧和毛羅，克勞迪奧和達維德。

Can you tell us a little bit more about their stories and what they've been experiencing?

你能告訴我們更多關於他們的故事和經歷嗎？

So Maurizio and Mauro are a gay couple from Milan.

毛利球斯和毛羅是一對來自米蘭的同志情侶。

They have twins, a boy and a girl, thanks to a surrogate from the US.

他們有一對雙胞胎，一男一女，這要歸功於來自美國的代孕者。

So they paid lots of money to get their babies.

所以，他們花了很多錢來得到他們的孩子。

When I interviewed them, because of the political climate in Italy, their babies had not been granted Italian citizenship, which means that they could have problems accessing nurseries, accessing the health care system, which is supposed to be free for Italians.

在我採訪他們的時候，由於意大利的政治氣候，他們的孩子還沒有獲得意大利國籍，這意味著他們在進入托兒所和使用醫療系統方面可能會遇到困難，而醫療系統對意大利人來說應該是免費的。

But they were really angry about the stigma around surrogacy.

但他們對代孕的汙名化感到非常憤怒。

Their kids are going to grow up in a country where their existence, the fact that they are born, is a universal crime.

他們的孩子將在這樣一個國家長大，在這個國家裡，他們的存在，他們的出生，是一種普遍的犯罪。

And then Claudio and Davide, they're a much younger couple, and they had a very different experience because when I spoke to them, they had a baby on their way, and they were really scared.

克勞迪奧和達維德是一對年輕得多的夫婦，他們的經歷非常不同，因為當我和他們交談時，他們的孩子馬上就要出生了，他們真的很害怕。

It took me a long time to convince them to talk to me.

我花了很長時間才說服他們跟我說話。

We ended up doing the interview anonymously because they were scared that somebody from the government would see the report on the BBC and target them.

我們最終以匿名的方式進行了採訪，因為他們害怕政府的某個人會看到 BBC 的報道，然後把矛頭指向他們。

They were getting ready to escape.

他們準備逃跑。

They were learning Dutch, they were learning Maltese, and in their eyes they were being forced into exile, into political asylum, for wanting to become fathers.

他們學習荷蘭語，學習馬耳他語，在他們眼裡，他們因為想成為父親而被迫流亡，被迫政治庇護。

So can we look now at some of the different laws around surrogacy and the different models that exist in different countries?

那麼，我們現在可以看看有關代孕的一些不同法律以及不同國家存在的不同模式嗎？

What's happening elsewhere?

其他地方發生了什麼？

In terms of legal frameworks, they really vary around the world.

就法律框架而言，世界各地的法律框架確實各不相同。

You've got countries that have a full ban on surrogacy, like China, like lots of European countries, Italy, of course, but also Germany, France, Spain.

有的國家全面禁止代孕，比如中國，比如很多歐洲國家，當然還有意大利、德國、法國、西班牙。

You've got countries that have a partial ban on surrogacy, and examples of that are the UK and Canada.

有些國家部分禁止代孕，比如英國和加拿大。

So they allow surrogacy, but only if it's not for money.

是以，他們允許代孕，但前提是代孕不是為了錢。

So a woman would sort of put herself through this to help others.

所以，一個女人會為了幫助別人而讓自己經歷這些。

Is this called the altruistic model?

這就是所謂的利他模式嗎？

It is, and so the clue is in the name.

的確如此，所以線索就在名字中。

There's a woman that feels like she wants to give back, she wants to give the gift of life.

有一個女人，她覺得自己想要回饋，她想要給予生命的禮物。

You also have countries where there are no regulations whatsoever, like Kenya, Nigeria, the Philippines, and that can be complicated, because that's where we see examples of things that go wrong, exploitations, things not done by the book.

也有一些國家沒有任何法規，比如肯亞、尼日利亞、菲律賓，這可能會很複雜，因為在這些國家，我們會看到出錯、剝削、不按規矩辦事的例子。

And then finally, you've got countries where surrogacy is fully legal, and the US is a really good example.

最後，在一些國家，代孕是完全合法的，美國就是一個很好的例子。

So legal and commercial?

那麼，合法和商業呢？

Legal and commercial.

法律和商業。

So that means a woman carrying a baby for another couple gets paid, and gets paid quite a lot of money, depending on the state.

是以，這意味著為另一對夫婦懷胎的婦女會得到報酬，而且報酬相當可觀，這取決於各州的情況。

So states that allow this are, for example, California, Illinois, and Washington DC.

是以，允許這樣做的州有加利福尼亞州、伊利諾伊州和華盛頓特區等。

Surrogacy has become a lifeline for many people who have been unable to have children of their own.

代孕已成為許多無法擁有自己孩子的人的生命線。

For some, it's their only opportunity to become parents.

對有些人來說，這是他們成為父母的唯一機會。

But while the demand for surrogacy and the possibilities it provides to people to have their own families has grown, the opportunities are actually still scarce.

但是，雖然人們對代孕的需求以及代孕為人們提供的擁有自己家庭的可能性越來越大，但實際上機會仍然很少。

And this is largely because so few countries actually allow intended parents to pay women to carry their babies.

這在很大程度上是因為很少有國家允許有意為人父母者付錢讓婦女懷上自己的孩子。

And Sophia, there have been huge problems as well when it comes to international surrogacy.

索菲亞，在國際代孕方面也存在著巨大的問題。

Can you explain some of those?

你能解釋其中的一些原因嗎？

There's lots of issues that can happen, one of them being a disagreement between the surrogate and intended parents.

可能會發生很多問題，其中之一就是代孕者和意向父母之間出現分歧。

And those are the people who pay or commission the procedure.

而這些人正是支付或委託手術的人。

And those disagreements, for example, could happen if there are complications during the pregnancy.

例如，如果在懷孕期間出現併發症，就會產生分歧。

What to do?

怎麼辦？

Do we terminate the pregnancy, or do we continue?

是終止妊娠，還是繼續妊娠？

There's also stories of women who suffer, who have a miscarriage, and then they are completely abandoned.

還有一些婦女遭受痛苦、流產，然後被徹底拋棄的故事。

So they feel discarded, or sometimes they don't get paid at all because they weren't able to deliver a baby.

是以，她們覺得自己被拋棄了，有時甚至因為無法接生而得不到任何報酬。

And then there's also accusations of babies being abandoned.

還有人指責嬰兒被遺棄。

There was this case that became quite well known a few years ago in Thailand, where a surrogate gave birth to twins, a boy and a girl.

幾年前，在泰國發生了一起眾所周知的案件，一名代孕者生下了一對雙胞胎，一男一女。

The girl was healthy, the boy had Down syndrome.

女孩很健康，男孩患有唐氏綜合症。

And she said that the couple who had commissioned the surrogacy from Australia, they took the girl back home, but they abandoned the baby.

她說，委託從澳洲代孕的那對夫婦把女孩帶回了家，但他們遺棄了孩子。

So obviously, that's really difficult legally, emotionally.

顯然，這在法律上和情感上都非常困難。

And also, there can be significant health risks.

此外，還可能存在重大的健康風險。

So there's this new study that looked at data from women in Canada, showing that a pregnancy through surrogacy can have higher risks, including severe bleeding after giving birth, or the risk of babies being born prematurely.

這項新研究調查了加拿大婦女的數據，結果顯示，通過代孕懷孕的風險更高，包括產後大出血或嬰兒早產的風險。

So this is not a straightforward procedure at all.

是以，這根本不是一個簡單的程序。

And even geopolitics and war and conflict can get in the way, because I think Ukraine was a major hub for commercial surrogacy in Europe.

甚至地緣政治、戰爭和衝突也會妨礙我們，因為我認為烏克蘭是歐洲商業代孕的主要中心。

And then when the war broke out, that led to all sorts of complications.

戰爭爆發後，一切都變得複雜起來。

That's right.

這就對了。

It used to be one of the key destinations, especially for people coming from the UK, but obviously, that's no longer the case.

它曾經是主要目的地之一，尤其是對來自英國的遊客而言，但現在顯然已不再如此。

What about the visibility of surrogacy now?

現在代孕的知名度如何？

It feels like there's much more of conversation about it, because we're seeing some celebrity couples talk about their experiences.

因為我們看到一些名人夫婦在談論他們的經歷，所以感覺有更多的人在談論這個話題。

Do you think that's fueling some of the demand too?

你認為這是否也助長了部分需求？

I think so, because we have seen in the last few years, a number of celebrities having babies through surrogacy, especially in the US.

我想是的，因為在過去的幾年裡，我們看到很多名人通過代孕生子，尤其是在美國。

Paris Hilton, King Kardashian, Nicole Kidman, but also men, Elton John, Cristiano Ronaldo.

帕麗斯-希爾頓、金-卡戴珊、妮可-基德曼，還有男人，埃爾頓-約翰、克里斯蒂亞諾-羅納爾多。

And so I think that has made surrogacy, which is something that a few years ago, we weren't really talking about, more known, more visible in the public eye.

是以，我認為這使得幾年前我們還不怎麼談論的代孕問題變得更加廣為人知，在公眾眼中更加引人注目。

What I found interesting is that some US companies like Walmart or Starbucks, now as part of their benefits package, they cover the costs of surrogacy.

我發現有趣的是，一些美國公司，如沃爾瑪或星巴克，現在將代孕費用作為福利的一部分。

Do you think the commercial element of it in the US is one of the reasons why more women are willing to become surrogates?

您是否認為美國的商業因素是越來越多的婦女願意成為代孕者的原因之一？

Because they know that these additional costs are going to be met?

因為他們知道這些額外費用會得到滿足？

The process in the US is meticulously regulated.

在美國，這一過程受到嚴格監管。

And the argument is that because of that, everybody is sort of more protected.

有觀點認為，正因為如此，每個人都受到了更多的保護。

There's a full background check on the surrogate.

對代孕者進行全面的背景調查。

There's a psychological evaluation.

有一個心理評估。

So she can't have had a significant history of mental health disorders or depression.

是以，她不可能有嚴重的精神疾病或抑鬱症病史。

She can't be a smoker or heavy drinker.

她不能吸菸或酗酒。

She needs to be financially stable and independent.

她需要經濟穩定和獨立。

And all the medical costs are covered.

而且所有的醫療費用都能報帳。

And obviously, she gets paid as well.

顯然，她也能拿到報酬。

Does she also need to have already had her own children, Sophia?

索菲亞，她是否也需要已經有了自己的孩子？

In most agencies, surrogacy agencies, yes.

在大多數代孕機構，是的。

And that's also because I think the idea is that they don't want women signing up to do this who don't understand the full consequences of being pregnant and giving birth.

這也是因為我認為，他們不想讓那些不瞭解懷孕和分娩的全部後果的婦女報名參加這項活動。

The argument is that it's when it's not regulated or banned that there isn't the same level of protection on both sides.

爭論的焦點在於，當它不受管制或禁止時，雙方的保護程度就不一樣。

And what do some of these women say about the experience of being a surrogate?

其中一些婦女是如何評價代孕經歷的呢？

What a lot of women have said is that this gives them a purpose.

很多女性都說，這讓她們有了目標。

It may be that they actually want to help a friend or a family member get pregnant.

他們可能真的想幫助朋友或家人懷孕。

It may be that they already have children and this has changed their life and they want to be able to help others.

也許他們已經有了孩子，這改變了他們的生活，他們希望能夠幫助他人。

Even the people that do it for the money, there's also an element of wanting to give back.

即使是為錢而乾的人，也有想回饋社會的因素。

Bluntly though, often it is just a commercial decision.

但直截了當地說，這往往只是一個商業決定。

It is and a very expensive one.

的確如此，而且價格不菲。

Just give us one example.

請舉一個例子。

How much can they make?

他們能賺多少錢？

The costs are astronomical in the US.

在美國，這些費用是天文數字。

So to break it down, first of all, there's compensation for the surrogate and that varies.

是以，細分起來，首先是對代孕者的補償，這一點各不相同。

But once you take into account maternity clothes, loss of earnings, time off work, that is normally between 65 and 95,000 US dollars.

但是，一旦考慮到孕婦服裝、收入損失、停工時間等因素，通常會在 65 000 美元到 95 000 美元之間。

Then you've got the medical costs and a single IVF cycle can cost up to 35,000 dollars.

然後是醫療費用，一個試管嬰兒週期的費用高達 35,000 美元。

And then if you're a gay couple, there's additional costs because you need to, obviously gay men can't provide eggs so they need to find a donor that's expensive.

如果你是一對男同性戀，還需要額外的費用，因為你需要，很明顯，男同性戀不能提供卵子，所以他們需要找到一個昂貴的捐贈者。

Then you've got really high agency fees.

然後你就會得到非常高昂的中介費。

So you've got these surrogacy agencies that act as facilitators so they match the surrogate with intended parents.

是以，代孕機構充當了促進者的角色，為代孕者和意向父母牽線搭橋。

And then you've got legal fees.

然後你還要支付律師費。

So overall in 2024, the average cost of commercial surrogacy in the US can be up to 140,000 dollars.

是以，總體而言，2024 年美國商業代孕的平均費用可達 14 萬美元。

But if you take other things into account, it often goes up to 250,000 dollars.

但如果考慮到其他因素，往往會高達 25 萬美元。

So it's really expensive.

所以真的很貴。

So there is this massive global market for surrogacy, Sophia.

索菲亞，代孕在全球有一個巨大的市場。

It's already worth almost 14 billion, but that is projected to rise to 129 billion by 2032, according to research from Global Markets Insights.

根據 Global Markets Insights 的研究，它的價值已接近 140 億美元，但預計到 2032 年將增至 1 290 億美元。

That's a huge figure.

這是一個龐大的數字。

So we're seeing this growth.

是以，我們看到了這種增長。

We're also seeing opposition grow, not just in countries like Italy.

不僅在意大利等國，我們還看到反對的聲音越來越大。

Can you tell me about some of the other opponents to surrogacy?

您能告訴我代孕的其他反對者嗎？

So religious opposition is an obvious one.

是以，宗教反對是顯而易見的。

In some Muslim countries, surrogacy is banned because of interpretations of Sharia law, which emphasises parent-child relationships.

在一些穆斯林國家，由於伊斯蘭教法強調父母與子女的關係，是以禁止代孕。

The Catholic Church has been against surrogacy since the 80s.

自上世紀 80 年代以來，天主教會一直反對代孕。

Pope Francis called for a global ban on surrogacy.

教皇方濟各呼籲全球禁止代孕。

He said that it's a violation of the dignity of the woman and the child.

他說，這侵犯了婦女和兒童的尊嚴。

The fact that the Catholic Church is against this, I think it's not that surprising, right?

事實上，天主教會反對這樣做，我認為這並不奇怪，對嗎？

But what surprised me when I was looking into this is that a lot of feminist groups around the world are also against surrogacy.

但讓我驚訝的是，當我調查這個問題時，發現全世界很多女權組織也反對代孕。

So we've got a situation where conservative Catholics and left-wing feminists actually agree on something.

是以，保守的天主教徒和左翼女權主義者在某些問題上達成了共識。

And is this because they believe it is the womb-for-hire argument?

這是否因為他們認為這是 "子宮僱傭論"？

They are commodifying a woman's body.

他們正在將女性的身體商品化。

They essentially feel that a body is rented out by rich men and then discarded.

他們從根本上認為，身體是被有錢人租用，然後丟棄的。

And so, you know, they see it as a struggle against the patriarchy, whereas the Catholic Church sees it as a struggle to protect the traditional family.

是以，你知道，他們認為這是一場反對父權制的鬥爭，而天主教會則認為這是一場保護傳統家庭的鬥爭。

And what about the concerns over these women that are potentially being exploited, particularly in the developing world?

對於這些可能受到剝削的婦女，尤其是開發中國家的婦女，人們又是如何看待的呢？