This is a new science: socio-cyberneering.

這是一個新的科學:"社會自動化控制工程"

And this is its inventor, the extraordinary Jacque Fresco.

這是它的發明者 非凡的雅克·法斯科

He's my guest this weekend on News Weekend.

他是我們這次週末新聞節目的嘉賓

My guest is an extraordinary Miamian: Dr. Jacque Fresco.

我的客人是一位傑出的邁阿密人 雅克·法斯科博士

I could go through all the things that Dr. Fresco has done.

我可以敘述一下法斯科博士所做過的事

He's a social engineer, industrial engineer, designer, inventor,

他是一個社會工程師 工業工程師 設計師 發明家

was a consultant for Rotorcraft Helicopter,

曾是旋翼飛行器設計顧問

Director of Scientific Research Laboratories, Los Angeles,

洛杉磯的科研實驗室主任

designed and copyrighted various items,

設計過多種項目

ranging from drafting instruments to X-ray units,

包括從繪圖儀器到X光機 並擁有版權專利

has had works published in the Architectural Record,

他的作品曾發表在《建築實錄》

Popular Mechanics, Saturday Review, and has been a technical

《大眾機械》《週六評論》

and psychological consultant to the motion picture industry,

他也曾是電影業的技術與心理學顧問

member of the Air Force design and development unit at Wright Field,

萊特機場空軍設計及開發部門的成員

developed the electrostatic anti-icing systems,

開發了靜電防冰系統

designed prefabricated aluminum houses.

設計過用鋁預制的房屋

What does it say in your driver's license?

你的駕照上是怎麼說的?

- What is the occupation?

是什麼職業來著?

- Industrial Designer ...

JF: 工業設計師

Social Engineer.

社會工程師

- Does it bug you that...

LK: 雅克

people, when they talk about Jacque Fresco in Miami, say that

當那些人談起邁阿密的雅克·法斯科的時候

he's someone who is, "Too far ahead of his time," his thinking is-

這樣評價道:如"那個人對於這個時代而言太超前了"

"We're not ready for advanced kind of thinking"-

"我們還沒有準備好接受這種超前的思想" 等等

of that type. Does it bug you?

這會困擾到你嗎?

- I imagine every creative person in every field

JF: 我能想像到 每個領域的每位開創性人物

encounters that sort of problem. No, it doesn't. I can't afford it.

都會遇到此類問題 不 這沒困擾到我 我困擾不起

There's too many things that are important.

還有很多重要的事等著我

- What is socio-cyberneering?

LK: 什麼是"社會自動化控制工程"?

- Socio-cyberneering is a new organization,

JF: "社會自動化控制工程"是一種新的社會組織結構

and it represents the application of the most sophisticated forms

它應用當今最先進的科學和科技

of science and technology toward problem solving,

來解決各種問題

so that we can reclaim the environment

使我們能夠恢復和重建多年來

which we loused up over the years

已被我們搞得一團糟的自然環境

and to build a way of life worthy of Man.

來建立一個對人類更有價值

To humanize society, to break away from the artificiality,

使社會更人性化的生活方式 打破現今

the regimentation, that dominates our society today.

各種主導當今扭曲社會的虛偽和專制

Our society seems torn apart, and pulled in many directions.

我們的社會似乎已經四分五裂了 而且正被拉向許多不同的方向

Socio-cyberneering is an approach

"社會自動化控制工程" 為社會的轉型

at the restructuring of society in humanistic terms.

提供了一種方案 就人性化 人本主義方面來說

- Humanistic terms? - Yes.

LK: 人本主義方面? JF: 是的

- The times I've spoken to you, you're very science and

LK: 有很多次我對你說過 你是一個非常

technological-oriented. You want categories in people

科學和科技導向的人 你想分類

... classified in categories, certain people living here and-

給一些人來分門別類 讓一些人住"這裡"或"那裡"

- I never wanted that. - No.

JF: 我從沒那麼想過

- Let's say that we didn't read each other,

讓我這麼說 我們沒有讀懂對方

or I did not communicate the ideas.

或者說 我沒有表達清楚我的意思

In essence, to me, all of the marvels of science and technology,

根本來講 對我而言 所有的科學和科技奇跡

all of the electronics and mechanical wonders,

所有的電子和機械方面的成果

are just so many millions of tons of junk,

都只是幾百萬噸的廢品

unless it enhances the lives of men.

除非它們改善人類的生活品質

The reason we emphasize machines and technology

我們強調機器和科技的原因在於

is to free Man, to go to

把人們（從枯燥的勞動中）解放出來

art centers, music centers, cultural centers,

（使人們）到藝術中心 音樂中心 文化中心去

and to find the meaning of their own existence and lives.

並使他們能夠找尋生活的內涵 和生命存在的意義

- How much can machines do? Can they

LK: 機器可以承擔多少工作?

run the things that are necessary to run?

它們能夠做需要做的事情嗎?

- Well, Mr. King, if we can

JF: 金先生 如果我們可以

launch a rocket off the Earth while it's turning,

發射火箭離開正在自轉的地球

find a place on the Moon, land it automatically,

在月球上找塊地自動著陸

pick up samples of the soil, bring the ship back

自動提取泥土樣本 然後在無人駕駛狀況下回來

without humans- I think the Russians have done this-

我想俄國人曾做過這些

bring the ship back to the Earth, surely we can handle

自動返回地球 顯然 我們可以掌控好客機和其它的

airliners, or anything else with redundancy.

任何問題而綽綽有餘

- The problem though is our political structure is:

LK: 但問題是我們的政治結構

How do you start changing a society this much,

你怎麼能開展這麼大幅度的社會轉型?

which has really no political system?

轉變到根本沒有政治系統？

- No, it has no political system.

JF: 是的 沒有政治體系

It is not affiliated with any political party.

不附屬於任何政黨

It is neither communist, fascist, nor socialist, nor democratic.

既不是共產主義 也不是法西斯主義 既非社會主義 亦非所謂的民主

Socio-cyberneering is a sort of a quantum jump,

"社會自動化控制工程"是一種 "量子躍遷"(比喻為巨大的轉變)

a severe departure in Man's way of thinking.

這和普通人的思維方式有天壤之別

- How do you make a severe departure with millions of people?

LK: 你怎樣與千百萬人一起達成這種天壤之別呢?

- With millions of people, well, I think you pretty much understand that

JF: 和千百萬人... 嗯 我想你一定明白

most of the development we have in our society today-

如今我們社會中大多數的科技發展

the technology: the airplane, TV, radio,

飛機 電視 廣播

modern production technology- is really done by very few people.

現代生產技術 只是由很少的一部分人所完成的

I would say several hundred people

我可以說是那數百人

comprise the modern technological civilization.

構成了現代科技文明

But you don't need millions of technicians and millions of scientists.

而你不需要數百萬的科技人員和科學家

How many people that you know of today

敢問今天有多少坐在家裡

sit in their home and play their phonograph, and radio and TV,

使用照相機 收音機 電視的人

have any idea of how this works?

真正懂得這些科技產品是怎麼工作的?

It's just happening around them...

這些只是在他們身邊發生了...

- I don't have any idea. - ...and they're falling behind.

LK: 我不知道那些東西怎麼工作的 JF: 他們就是如此落在時代的後面

What is happening to Man is that his technological society-

如今在人們面前所發生的情況是 科技型社會

the newer value systems that dominate our times

主導我們時代的更新的價值體系

that are pressing onward- are just leaving behind

正緊逼著人們邁步向前

hundreds of thousands of people that cannot make the transition.

有很多很多的人不適應而落伍 這根本不能產生變革!

In other words, people that can't change

換句話說 有些人就是不能改變

can be found in the Amazon jungle today: the head-hunters.

現在的亞馬遜的森林裡 還有"獵頭族"

And we've got to change. I think the book "Future Shock",

我們必須改變 我記得有一本書叫 《未來衝擊》

or the book I've worked on, "Looking Forward".

或者是我正在寫的書《向前看》

"Future Shock" points out, that there are a lot of things

《未來衝擊》中指出未來會發生很多事

going to happen, whether you like it or not,

不管你喜不喜歡

that the future cannot be stopped by anyone.

未來的車輪不會因任何人而停止

It is a continuous progression.

這是一個持續不斷的進程

- But there'll always be large groups of people that have trouble handling it.

LK: 但總還是會有很多人對此很難適應

- Yes, this is true. - Look at the change of someone... - We agree.

JF: 是的 確實是這樣 LK: 看看一個人的改變 JF: 我們同意

- ...60 years old, who has seen unbelievable change in their lifetime.

一個60多歲的人 可以在其一生中 看到許多難以置信的改變

- I believe they can change quickly

JF: 我相信如果給他們適宜的訊息

if the information is made available to them. In other words

他們可以很快改變 換句話說

to present socio-cyberneering in one shot is extremely difficult.

對於現在來說 一下子達到社會自動化控制工程是極其困難的

I believe that people should not be divided-

我認為人們是不應該被分開的

the youngsters, the adolescents, and finally the mature young adults

小孩 青少年 然後年輕成年人

and then the older folks, are all divided people.

老傢伙 這些概念都在分化人們

When you get to be 65

當你到了65歲

you don't want to travel on an ocean liner with old folks.

你不想跟那些老傢伙 坐遠洋客輪一起旅行

How come we put up these buildings for the old folks?

我們怎麼能只給那些老傢伙建想要的房子?

We think that people ought to live wherever the hell they want to live.

我們認為人們應該生活在任何他們想要的地方

That cities must be designed so we have an integrated intelligent society.

而城市的設計必須使我們有一個完整的 智能化的社會

Einstein, when he was 65, 70 years old, he would talk to youngsters.

愛因斯坦在他65到70歲的時候 還願意跟年輕人交談!

He kept reading. He kept up with ideas.

他保持閱讀 保持思考

Why must societies be divided into different groups?

為什麼社會必須被分成不同的群體?

We think that you're as young as your life permits you to be,

我們認為你的生活允許你有多年輕 你就有多麼年輕

as your exposure, as your ideas.

取決於你接觸的事物 和你的想法

- Alright let's- with pictures- explore the thinking of Jacque Fresco

LK: 好的 讓我們來看看這些照片 看看雅克·法斯科的構想

and the society he'd like to see: socio-cyberneering.

還有他所願看到的社會:"社會自動化控制工程"

Now, we'll start with this, and you tell me. - I'll try to point it out.

現在我們從這兒開始 然後你告訴我... JF: 我會試著指明

- Yeah, you can point right at it.

LK: 好的 你來吧

All of the new cities

JF: 所有新城市

will be a university, in essence.

在本質上 都將會是大學

The center of a city, the nucleus, will house

城市的中心 也就是其核心 會放置

an electronic computer which only controls the weather,

一台電腦 它將只控制天氣

water purification, the atmospheric conditions,

水的淨化 大氣環境

that is- it controls air contamination systems.

也就是說：它控制著空氣污染監測系統

The computers do not, I say it again, do not control people.

我再次強調 電腦不會控制人!

They maintain safety, they oversee the environment,

它們維持安全 監督環境

maintain ecological balance between animal life and plant life.

維持動物和植物之間的生態平衡

All the machines do is control the physical entities

所有機器做的只是監控

that comprise the environment.

構成環境的物質實體

The center of the city is a university.

城市的中心是一所大學

A university that covers all subjects related to Man.

一所涵蓋所有與人有關的學科的大學

It is not a commercial university. It is not based on any-...

這不是一個商業性的大學 不是基於任何...

There are no courses that are used to exploit

沒有過去那種用來剝削

or abuse any other human being.

或虐待他人的課程

All business courses will be phased out.

所有商業課程都將被逐步廢止

All repetitious jobs will be phased out.

所有重複枯燥的工作都將被淘汰

We feel that machines ought to do

我們認為機器應該去做那些

the filthy, or the repetitious, or the boring jobs.

骯髒 重複的 枯燥的工作

That Man has to be free

人們則有自由

to pursue the higher things, the higher possibilities of Man.

去追求更崇高的事物和更遠大的可能性

In other words, if this is the medical unit- this little branch-

換言之 如果這是一個醫療單位（一個小分支）

and if you work in this center,

如果你在這個中心工作

you may live in the garden cities that surround the center.

你可以住在圍繞著城市中心的花園城市

You don't have to. You can if you will.

你不必怎麼樣 你只要願意就可以

Each of the garden cities contain lakes, recreation areas,

每個花園城市包含湖泊 休閒區等

and between cities, we let everything go back to nature.

在城市之間 我們讓一切回到自然狀態

- Will computers be able to control the weather?

LK: 電腦能夠控制氣候嗎?

- This is a relatively easy project to manage.

JF: 這是一個相對容易解決的項目

- Easy to control? - Yes. - You could control the weather?

LK: 容易控制? JF: 對 LK: 你可以控制氣候?

- I could go into that with you in a little while. - Alright.

JF: 我可以等一會再談這些 LK: 好的

- Can I finish that? - Oh, okay, sorry.

JF: 我可以講完這些嗎? LK: 哦 抱歉

- On the outer rim of the city, we have the agricultural belt.

JF: 在城市外緣 我們有農業帶

All of your garbage is compressed

所有的垃圾全部被壓縮

and pumped, recycled out to the agricultural belt.

和抽泵 回收出來後再送到農業帶

There are no garbage trucks. There are no dump fields.

將不再會有垃圾車和垃圾堆

We use everything. All waste is recycled.

我們利用所有東西 所有垃圾都被回收再利用

This is an ecological program.

這是一個生態角度的規劃

- Alright. Now, this is what the total city...

LK: 好的 這就是城市整體

- The total city looks like this.

JF: 城市整體將會是這樣的

There are circular conveyor belts that take you

有環形的傳送帶 可以在3分鐘內

anywhere in the city in three minutes.

把你送到城中任何一個地方

The city population in this particular city is 15,000.

這種城市可以容納的人口為15,000人

We have larger cities designed, up to two million.

我們還設計了更大的 可以容納高達200萬人口的城市

The cities are all immersed in beautiful gardens.

所有城市都沉浸在美麗的花園裡

There are no trees in a row.

樹木不會被排成行

It is not a mechanical environment.

這不是一個機械的環境

It is essentially a city immersed in a second Garden of Eden

整個城市實際上會浸浴在第二個伊甸園之中

where there are lakes, recreation areas,

那裡有湖泊 娛樂區

art centers, music centers, cultural centers,

藝術中心 音樂中心 文化中心

and surrounding the city we have the agricultural belt

環繞城市周圍的 是我們的農業帶

where we grow foods hydroponically.

我們在那裡用水耕法（一種無土栽培技術）培養食物

Between cities, we let everything go back to nature:

在城市之間 我們讓一切回歸自然

the deer, the coyote, the entire ecological balance is maintained.

鹿 土狼 整個生態平衡得以維持

- We grow foods, how? - Hydroponically.

LK: 我們怎麼種食物? JF: 水耕法

- What's that? - Soil-less agriculture, in some instances.

LK: 那是什麼? JF: 無土農業 在某些情況下

And in other instances we use conventional agriculture,

在其它情況下 我們使用傳統的農業

which we'll get onto in the drawings as we go through the subject.

我會透過畫圖去解釋這個項目

- Alright. What- before we get to the other pictures-

LK: 好的 在解說其它圖片之前

what jobs, that we now know, will not be present in this concept?

目前所知的工作 有哪些將不會出現在這計劃裡?

- Well, most. - Like garbage men, gone, right?

JF: 大多數 LK: 比如 收垃圾的人 沒有了 對嗎?

- Yes. All repetition. All people working in fact- - Mailmen?

JF: 是的 所有重複性的工作 實際上是所有的工人 LK: 郵差?

- No mailmen, no waitresses, no waiters, no cooks.

JF: 沒有郵差 沒有餐館服務員 沒有廚師

- When you go out to eat, how will you get your food?

LK: 當你想吃東西的時候 怎麼得到食物?

- Well, there are beautifully designed

JF: 城中有設計精美的

areas for eating, in which you have all kinds of food.

餐飲區域 在其中有各種食品

Japanese, French food, organic food, and the standards if you like it.

日式的 法式的 有機食品 還有普通的食品 如果你喜歡

- And how would it get to you? - The way the food gets to you-...

LK: 那你怎麼得到那些東西? JF: 關於怎樣得到食物

what we do is monitor the behavior of the cook.

我們要做的就是模仿廚師怎麼做

That is, we do a multi-channel tape, on the best cooks that we know of.

也就是 我們在已知最好的廚師那裡 製作一個聯合頻道錄像

And, as they prepare their food

在他們準備那些食物的同時

we tape every move they make, and how they handle food

我們錄下他們的每一個動作 他們怎樣處理食物

and how they dice the carrots, the way you like it.

例如 他們如何切胡蘿蔔 按你自己喜歡的方式去做!

Then you dial "2736", and you get the kind of food you want.

然後你撥打"2736" 接著就會得到你想要的食物

Chef Milani style, or individualized.

米拉尼廚師風格的 或其它個性化的食物

You can even tape your own cooking.

你甚至可以錄下你自己做菜的步驟!

- I remember 5 years ago I used to laugh at you,

LK: 我記得5年前我曾經嘲笑你

and now all this is very believable.

但現在這一切是非常可信的

Alright, onward. What do we have here?

好了 繼續吧 這些是什麼?

- Areas like India, where you have high population densities,

JF: 像印度那樣的地區有很高的人口密度

or areas like China, we just can't afford

像中國那樣的地區也是 我們無法繼續承受

to go on and make an individual house

這樣的人口密度 並去為每個人

for every human being. We just don't have that kind of energy.

建造個別的住房 我們真的沒有那樣的能源

Our population has already surpassed the point of no return.

地球的人口已經走上不歸路

We have to unify our architecture, not that I like it.

我們得統一我們的建築結構 —— 並不是因為我喜歡它

But we're trapped. We have to unify it and then make art centers,

而是我們被這些問題困住了 我們要聯合起來 然後造出藝術中心

music centers and gardens between the cities.

音樂中心 花園 位於城市之間

In India, this would only extend six miles.

在印度 這只會延伸6英里!

And then you would have countryside, lakes, and hiking area

然後將有鄉村 湖泊 對大多數行人而設的

for most people. But, if you try to spread your cities out

徒步區 但如果你想擴展你的城市

as we're doing, you're going to louse up the entire area.

就像我們正在做的這樣 那你就會弄砸整個地區的環境

- Are you betting that people will not declare war on each other?

LK: 你打賭人們不會互相宣戰嗎?

So that you can get at building all of this?

所以你能夠建立所有這些？

- Well, we don't have much choice. We're going to

JF: 我們沒多少選擇 我們將摧毀對方

destroy each other, or we're going to make it.

或者我們共同合作做好這些

- Now, this looks like some sort of

LK: 這些看上去像一些

submerged stadium, with something flying.

被淹沒的體育場 還有一些飛行物

- In an area like Pennekamp Park, we might build

JF: 在一個像Panakan公園的地區 我們在海上

circular cities in the sea, where the water is about 30, 35 feet deep.

可以建立環形城市 其中的水是30 - 35英尺深

Most of the apartment houses will open out into the sea.