Name: 昆蟲和植物有意識嗎？答案可能讓你驚掉下巴！- Michael Pollan (Are Insects And Plants Conscious? The Answer Might Be Yes. - Michael Pollan)
Uploaded: 2026-02-20T17:16:01.000Z
Duration: 4 min 22 s

My next guest tonight is a New York Times bestseller and one of my favorite authors, whose books include the Omnivore's dilemma, in Defense of Food, and

我今晚的下一位嘉賓是《紐約時報》暢銷書作家，也是我最喜歡的作者之一，他的著作包括《雜食者的困境》、《飲食的真相》，還有

His new book is A World, A Journey into Consciousness.

他的新書是《一個世界：意識之旅》。

Please welcome back to the Late Show, Michael Pollan.

歡迎麥可·波倫再次來到《晚間秀》。

Michael, it's always good to talk to you.

Last time you were here, we talked about psychedelics.

上次你來的時候，我們聊了迷幻藥。

And your new book delves even deeper into the recesses of the mind, explores the subject of consciousness.

而你的新書更深入地探索心靈的奧祕，探討意識這個主題。

Right here, A world appears, A journey to the consciousness.

就在這裡，《一個世界：意識之旅》。

Well, the psychedelic experience actually was the inspiration.

嗯，迷幻藥的體驗其實就是靈感來源。

Psychedelics have a way of kind of smudging the windshield of consciousness.

迷幻藥有種辦法，能把意識的擋風玻璃弄模糊。

I thought the doors of perception would be cleansed.

And suddenly you realize there is a windshield.

然後你突然意識到，擋風玻璃是存在的。

Well, let me ask, how do you define consciousness, then?

嗯，讓我問問，那你怎麼定義意識呢？

I mean, people complicate it, but it's basically subjective experience, or even just experience.

我是說，大家把它搞得很複雜，但基本上就是主觀體驗，或者就只是體驗。

Well, you know, to include the toaster, I guess that's theoretically possible.

嗯，你知道，如果要包含烤麵包機，我想那理論上是可能的。

But the other definition I really like is by a philosopher named Thomas Nagel, who said that if it is like something to be this creature or that creature, if it feels like something, you're conscious.

但我另一個很喜歡的定義，是一位名叫湯瑪斯·內格爾的哲學家提出的，他說如果成為某種生物或另一種生物有感覺，如果感覺起來像什麼，那麼你就是有意識的。

He wrote a great essay called what is it like to be a Bat?

他寫了一篇很棒的論文，叫做「成為蝙蝠是什麼感覺？」

And even though bats are very different than us and they hang upside down most of the day and they get around by echolocation, we can sort of imagine that.

即使蝙蝠跟我們很不一樣，牠們一天大部分時間都倒掛著，而且靠回聲定位來行動，我們還是有點能想像。

We can imagine that they have some kind of experience.

Well, let me ask you, so what is the difference then between awareness?

嗯，我問你，那麼意識和覺察之間的差別是什麼？

Because I can imagine a bat or almost any creature of any kind, any living thing, having an awareness.

因為我可以想像蝙蝠，或者幾乎任何一種生物、任何有生命的東西，都有覺察力。

They're aware of where the sun is, that sort of thing.

牠們知道太陽在哪裡，諸如此類。

Differentiate between awareness and consciousness.

Is consciousness somewhere along the scale of awareness?

I would say that there's a spectrum that begins with what I would call a sentience.

我會說，這是一個光譜，從我所謂的「感官」開始。

And that is this basic awareness of your environment and an ability to tell good changes from bad and to gravitate toward the good things.

那是一種對周遭環境的基本覺察，以及分辨好壞變化並趨向美好事物的能力。

我認為所有活著的東西都有這個。

And so I think sentience is the default for life.

所以，我認為感官是生命的預設值。

And when you say some other animals, how many would you include in that?

當你說「其他一些動物」，你大概會包含多少呢？

Like the greater, like, you know, megafauna, stuff like that, or.

像是大型的、你知道的，巨型動物，之類的。

Most mammals, some birds, cephalopods, octopuses.

大多數哺乳類動物、一些鳥類、頭足類動物、章魚。

But now what's happening right now is we're extending, we're democratizing consciousness to more and more species.

但現在我們正在擴展、我們正在將意識民主化，讓更多物種也能擁有意識。

And I think it's bringing us to this interesting Copernican moment.

我認為這正把我們帶入一個有趣的哥白尼式時刻。

When Copernicus came along, we suddenly realized we weren't the center of the universe, that the sun did not revolve around us.

哥白尼出現時，我們突然意識到自己並非宇宙的中心，太陽並非繞著我們轉。

And that was like, mind blowing to everybody.

那對每個人來說都像是一個震撼彈。

And I think we're getting there now because on the one side, you've got consciousness now being extended down to insects and possibly plants, which I talk about in the book.

我認為我們現在正走到那裡，因為一方面，意識現在正向下延伸到昆蟲，甚至可能到植物，這我在書中有提到。

另一方面，是人工智慧的出現。

We're right back with more Michael Pollan.

我們馬上回來，繼續麥可·波倫的分享。