Name: 你睡得夠嗎？ - BBC World Service 的全球故事 podcast (Do we get enough sleep? - The Global Story podcast, BBC World Service)
Uploaded: 2026-01-31T12:49:25.000Z
Duration: 19 min 3 s

Hi, I'm Johnny diamond and from the BBC World Service, this is the global story.

嗨，我是 Johnny Diamond，來自 BBC世界服務，這是全球故事。

Tossing, turning, feeling wide awake at 2 in the morning and struggling to get back to sleep.

翻來覆去，凌晨兩點還醒著，努力想再次入睡。

We know how bad we feel after not getting a good night's rest.

我們都知道睡不好隔天有多難受。

We spend around a third of our lives asleep but a third of us regularly struggle.

我們一生大約有三分之一的時間在睡眠中度過，但我們有三分之一的人經常為睡眠所苦。

And recent research shows that bad sleep can increase the risks of multiple health conditions.

而最近的研究顯示，睡眠品質差會增加罹患多種健康狀況的風險。

How harmful is it to get insufficient or irregular sleep?

睡眠不足或不規律會有多傷身呢？

And given how common it is, can it be improved?

考量到這種情況有多普遍，有沒有辦法改善呢？

With me today is Russell Foster, professor of circadian neuroscience at the University of Oxford.

今天和我一起的是牛津大學生理時鐘神經科學教授 Russell Foster。

你好 Johnny，很高興能和你一起。

And Dr. Nariena Ramlakhan, a physiologist and author.

還有生理學家兼作家 Nariena Ramlakhan 醫師。

Let me start with the most important question of the day.

讓我先來問今天最重要的問題。

Smugly, I have to say I slept beautifully last night.

我必須說，我昨晚睡得非常香甜。

I celebrate good nights of sleep because for many decades I didn't sleep well.

我會慶祝美好的睡眠夜晚，因為過去幾十年來我都睡不好。

I woke up once and then got straight back to sleep again.

我醒來一次，然後就馬上又睡著了。

Two very smug guests in our studio delighted with their sleep.

我們攝影棚裡有兩位非常得意洋洋的來賓，他們對自己的睡眠很滿意。

Russell, you specialize in circadian rhythms.

Russell，你專精於生理時鐘節律。

Some people watching and listening may know what that is, others will not.

有些正在收看和收聽的朋友可能知道這是什麼，有些人則不知道。

And, and I suppose why are they so important?

還有，我想請問，它們為什麼這麼重要？

So if we think about what our biology needs to do, it has to deliver the right stuff at the right concentration to the right tissues and organs at the right time of day.

所以，如果我們想想我們的生理學需要做什麼，它必須在一天中的正確時間，將正確的東西以正確的濃度，送到正確的組織和器官。

And what our circadian system allows us to do is give a time structure for our entire biology.

而我們的生理時鐘系統讓我們能夠為我們整個生理學提供一個時間結構。

And so it's an internal representation of a day which is fine tuning every aspect of our physiology, every aspect of our biology, to the varying demands of sleep and activity, consciousness and sleep.

所以，它就像是我們內在對一天的呈現，能夠微調我們生理學的各個面向，我們生物學的各個面向，以應對睡眠與活動、清醒與睡眠不斷變化的需求。

And the critical question, I suppose, well, for ordinary punters like me, what does the clock recommend or mandate even as an optimum amount of sleep?

我想，對於像我這樣的普通人來說，關鍵問題是，時鐘推薦，甚至規定，最佳睡眠量是多少？

I've often said that sleep is like shoe size.

And there have been some somewhat irresponsible sort of statements saying, you know, if you don't get eight hours of sleep, you're going to die.

而且，有些相當不負責任的陳述說，如果你沒有睡足八小時，你就會死。

I mean, the healthy range for sleep from the National Sleep foundation, which I'm a member of, that board, is somewhere between six hours and it may be up to 10 and a half, even 11 hours for some people.

我的意思是，美國國家睡眠基金會（我是該委員會的成員）建議的健康睡眠範圍，大約是六小時到十個半小時，甚至有些人可以睡到十一小時。

The average true is about seven to eight hours, but there's lots of variation between individuals.

真正的平均值大約是七到八小時，但個人差異很大。

Narina, you have spent what, three decades helping people to get better sleep?

Narina，妳花了大概三十年幫助人們改善睡眠，對吧？

And I think it's ranged from what Schools to psychiatric wards.

我認為這範圍很廣，從學校到精神科病房都有。

What do people tell you causes their poor sleep?

人們告訴妳是什麼原因導致他們睡眠品質不佳？

Sometimes people have these really unhelpful beliefs, you know, these misconceptions about what they should or should not be getting.

有時候人們會有這些非常沒有幫助的信念，你知道，這些關於他們應該或不應該得到什麼的誤解。

And, you know, they go around saying, I've got this amount of sleep and they're measuring it and they're obsessing about it.

而且，你知道，他們到處說，我睡了多少小時，他們還在測量，還在鑽牛角尖。

And that in itself is creating problems with their sleep, it's creating anxiety.

這本身就造成了他們的睡眠問題，也造成了焦慮。

So I think that there's that side of things.

But there's also what I've been observing for the last 30 years.

但這也是我過去三十年來觀察到的。

You know, I started doing this work in the 90s.

你知道，我是在九零年代開始做這份工作的。

I left the academic world and ended up in a health screening clinic where I was measuring the health of city professionals.

我離開學術界，來到一家健康檢查診所，在那裡我為城市專業人士測量健康狀況。

And that's when I started to notice that more and more people wanted to talk about sleep.

那時候我開始注意到，越來越多人想談論睡眠。

And at the same time, of course, technology had exploded onto the scene.

同時，當然，科技也爆炸性地出現了。

The Internet and mobile phones and everything was going really fast.

網際網路、手機和所有東西都發展得非常快。

So I've been paying attention to the speed and noticing how it impacts our human physiology and as Russell has said, you know, the circadian timer and then how it impacts sleep.

所以我一直在關注這個速度，並注意到它如何影響我們人類的生理學，就像Russell說的，你知道，生理時鐘節律，然後它如何影響睡眠。

And I think that's playing its part, the speed of life.

我認為這也扮演著一個角色，就是生活的速度。

I mean, I understand things feel like they've got a lot faster.

我的意思是，我明白事情感覺變得快了很多。

Does it mean in your eyes that we are unable to slow down into sleep because we are spending so much more of our lives in a sort of heightened state of existence?

這是不是代表，在你眼中，我們無法放慢腳步進入睡眠，因為我們生命中有太多時間都處於一種高度活躍的存在狀態？

We've certainly lost the ability to slow down.

我們確實失去了放慢腳步的能力。

But not just at night, but, but throughout the day.

Oscillating of all of the physiological processes in the body.

They oscillate in a kind of sinusoidal up and down rhythm.

牠們以一種正弦波的上下起伏節律擺動。

And I think the way we're living our lives, we've become very restless.

我想我們現在的生活方式，讓我們變得非常焦躁不安。

你知道，我還記得以前那些美好的時光。

when we had lunch breaks and coffee breaks and tea breaks and people don't, they're stretched to the limit.

以前我們有午餐時間、咖啡時間、茶點時間，但現在沒有了，大家都被壓榨到極限。

So we thought technology would make life easier.

所以我們以為科技會讓生活更輕鬆。

And it does in many respects that we can do this sort of thing, but

在很多方面，科技確實讓生活更輕鬆，讓我們能做這些事，但是

it does mean that, you know, people are stretching themselves and often against the limits of their physiological capabilities.

這也意味著，你知道，人們過度消耗自己，而且常常超出他們的生理極限。

Narina, you mentioned this sort of irony that people, some people at any rate, are now getting so anxious about sleep that it's affecting their sleep.

Narina，你提到一個很有趣的諷刺，就是有些人，至少有些人在擔心睡眠，結果反而影響了他們的睡眠。

It leads inexorably to the question how can you tell when you're not getting enough sleep?

這就不可避免地引出一個問題：你怎麼知道自己睡眠不足？

Well, I try to encourage my clients and you've mentioned some of them.

嗯，我會鼓勵我的客戶，你也有提到一些。

You know, they might be children in schools, they could be people in psychiatric clinics with a lot of corporate employees.

你知道，他們可能是學校裡的孩子，也可能是精神科診所的病患，或是很多公司員工。

I try to encourage people to listen more deeply and to not reach for their phones or their devices first thing in the morning to see what an app has just told them, but

我會鼓勵大家更深入地傾聽，而不是一早醒來就急著滑手機或看裝置，看看App告訴了他們什麼，而是

actually to just when you wake up in the morning, before you reach outside of yourself to be told X, Y or Z, just listen, how do you feel right now?

實際上，當你早上醒來時，在向外尋求X、Y或Z的資訊之前，先傾聽，你現在感覺如何？

And even to listen to the speed of your breathing or the speed of your thoughts, and

甚至去感受你呼吸的快慢，或是你思緒的流動，然後

then as you go about your day, to pay attention to how the body feels physically, how you feel emotionally, how you relating to other people.

當你開始一天時，去留意身體的感受，你情緒上的感覺，以及你與他人互動的感覺。

And I think many people fundamentally don't have a sleep problem.

而且我認為很多人根本沒有睡眠問題。

And, you know, sleep anxiety is now recognized as an issue.

而且，你知道，睡眠焦慮現在已經被認為是一個問題了。

And it arises for lots of reasons, but it means we have a target.

它有很多原因，但這意味著我們有了目標。

There are things that one can do about reducing one's anxiety either before you go to bed, before you go to sleep, or if you happen to wake up.

有些事情可以做來減輕睡前、睡覺前的焦慮，或者在你半夜醒來時。

There are anxiety reducing regimes that you can adopt to get back to sleep.

有一些可以採取的減輕焦慮的方案，幫助你重新入睡。

And I think an increasing understanding of why you might be having sleep anxiety is really important going forward.

我認為越來越瞭解自己為什麼會有睡眠焦慮，對未來真的很重要。

Russell, I want to ask you about whether or not sleep as a block is important.

Russell，我想問你，睡眠本身作為一個整體是否重要。

I mean, I think a fair number of people watching or listening the show will wake up during part of the night and then hopefully get back to sleep.

我的意思是，我想很多正在看或聽這個節目的人，會在半夜醒來，然後希望重新入睡。

But worry that somehow the second bit of sleep is not worth as much as the first bit of sleep.

但他們擔心，不知為何，後半段的睡眠不如前半段那麼有價值。

Well, I would argue very strongly that it doesn't matter if you wake up in the middle of the night, as long as you've got the techniques of reducing stress and getting back to sleep.

嗯，我會強烈主張，如果你有減輕壓力並重新入睡的技巧，那麼半夜醒來也沒關係。

And we've been so often told that perfect sleep is an eight hour single block, and

而且我們經常被告知，完美的睡眠是連續八小時，

As one ages, you're more inclined to have what's called biphasic sleep, whereby you're going to sleep, you're waking up, you're going back to sleep again, or indeed polyphasic sleep.

隨著年齡增長，你更容易出現所謂的雙相睡眠，也就是你會睡著、醒來，然後再睡回去，或者甚至是多相睡眠。

And historically there are some studies which suggest that this may be the default pattern of human sleep.

歷史上有一些研究顯示，這可能是人類睡眠的預設模式。

And the key thing is that if you do wake up in the middle of the night, the tendency is to think, oh my God, that's it.

關鍵是，如果你半夜醒來，你 tend to 會想，天啊，完蛋了。

I might as well start drinking coffee and doing emails.

我不如現在就開始喝咖啡、處理郵件。

And if you lie there and you relax, you almost invariably get back to sleep.

如果你躺在那裡放鬆，你幾乎總能重新入睡。