Name: 烏克蘭柏林會談進入第二天！| DW新聞 (Ukraine talks in Berlin stretch into second day | DW News)
Uploaded: 2025-12-15T16:54:16.000Z
Duration: 6 min 34 s

A second day of talks aimed at bringing a peaceful end to Russia's invasion of Ukraine are underway here in Berlin.

在柏林，旨在為俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭帶來和平結束的第二輪會談正在進行中。

Roadblocks and other security measures are in place across the German capital.

德國首都各處都設有路障和其他安全措施。

Thousands of officers have been deployed from all over the country.

來自全國各地的數千名警員已被部署。

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky arrived yesterday and met with US Envoy Steve Witkoff and Donald Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner.

烏克蘭總統澤倫斯基昨天抵達，並會見了美國特使史蒂夫·維特科夫以及唐納·川普的女婿賈裡德·庫許納。

President Zelensky has already said he's ready to drop Ukraine's bid to join NATO in return for legally binding security guarantees from the West.

澤倫斯基總統已經表示，他願意放棄烏克蘭加入北約的請求，以換取來自西方的具有法律約束力的安全保證。

The leaders are of Germany, France and the UK Are expected to join later and see what's expected.

德國、法國和英國的領導人預計稍後加入，看看會有什麼進展。

And let's see what's happened with our correspondence in Ukraine.

讓我們來看看我們在烏克蘭的特派員有什麼消息。

Nick Connolly and here in Kiev, our political correspondent, Julia Saudi.

尼克·康諾利，以及基輔的政治特派員茱莉亞·沙烏地。

Julia, let's start with you and what came out of yesterday's discussions?

茱莉亞，我們從妳那裡開始，昨天討論的結果是什麼？

Well, the talks yesterday between the Ukrainian and the US Side lasted for over five hours.

嗯，昨天烏克蘭和美國之間的談判持續了五個多小時。

So they went through the afternoon, in the evening.

所以他們一路談到下午、晚上。

But we didn't hear yet what exactly was discussed.

但我們還沒聽到確切的討論內容。

We've heard from the US side that the 20 point peace plan was discussed, but

我們從美方聽說，討論了20點和平計畫，但是

there were no concrete conclusions coming out of those talks yet.

We've, we've heard that the Ukrainian and US Delegations are meeting again right now before Ukrainian President Zelensky is expected here in the building behind me to meet with Germany's President Steinmeier.

我們聽到烏克蘭和美國代表團現在正在再次會面，接著烏克蘭總統澤倫斯基預計會在這裡我身後的建築物裡，與德國總統施泰因邁爾會面。

But we, we heard before the meetings even started yesterday from Ukrainian President Zelensky that he said that Ukraine is ready to renounce its bid to join NATO and that this would be a very big compromise for Ukraine and that this would be actually a step, however, that they would be willing to make to try to bring the negotiations forward.

不過，我們在昨天的會議開始前就聽烏克蘭總統澤倫斯基說過，烏克蘭準備放棄加入北約的請求，這對烏克蘭來說將是一個很大的讓步，而且他們願意採取這一步，來試圖推動談判。

We know also that Ukraine for giving up this bid would want then security guarantees coming from the US and from its European partners.

我們也知道，烏克蘭為了放棄這個請求，會希望獲得來自美國及其歐洲夥伴的安全保證。

And also another issue that is likely to be discussed is territorial concessions.

另外一個很可能被討論的議題是領土讓步。

We know that the US Plan originally that was redacted after having spoken directly with Putin, wanted Ukraine to give up the parts of Donetsk that it still controls to Russia.

我們知道，美國最初的計畫，在與普丁直接談判後被刪減，要求烏克蘭放棄其仍控制的頓內茨克部分地區給俄羅斯。

That is something that Ukraine does not want to do.

And this is another sticking point in the negotiations, negotiations that is likely being discussed today.

這也是談判中的另一個僵局，而這個僵局很可能在今天被討論。

Okay, so straight to Nick Connolly in Kiev.

好的，現在直接連線到基輔的尼克·康諾利。

How are these being perceived there in Ukraine?

在烏克蘭那邊，大家是怎麼看待這些談判的？

Look, Phil, I think people do realize that this is more important and that there's more at stake than previous rounds.

菲爾，我想大家確實意識到，這次的談判比之前的幾輪更重要，也關係到更多利害關係。

The fact that Zelensky is meeting Wycoff, who is de facto Donald Trump's most important negotiator point person on these talks is a big deal.

澤倫斯基總統會見懷科夫，懷科夫實際上是川普在這些談判中最重要的一位聯絡人，這是一件大事。

Previously, you know, you had the Ukrainians at a lower level speaking to more junior people on the US Side, and

以前，你知道的，烏克蘭方面是比較低層級的人在跟美國方面比較基層的人談，而

Wykoff was basically only talking to the Russians and maybe the Europeans at times.

懷科夫基本上只跟俄羅斯談，有時候可能也會跟歐洲人談。

Or you had the Ukrainians talking to Keith Kellogg, who's basically been sidelined, who was the Ukraine emissary.

或者，烏克蘭人會和凱斯·凱洛格談判，他基本上是被邊緣化了，他曾是烏克蘭特使。

And the fact that we're getting all these briefings, although we don't have much firm stuff, that indeed, as Julia mentioned, that Ukraine would be willing to trade the NATO aspiration for binding, legally binding security guarantees.

而且，雖然我們沒有太多確切的消息，但我們確實收到了所有這些簡報，正如茱莉亞提到的，烏克蘭願意用對北約的期望來換取具有法律約束力的安全保證。

And equally, we've been hearing about the other red lines.

同樣地，我們也聽說了其他的紅線。

You know, we see the Americans pushing the Ukrainians to get a deal done by Christmas.

你知道的，我們看到美國人催促烏克蘭在聖誕節前達成協議。

No one believes that's going to happen, but

certainly they are having to engage and having to show that they are not the reason that these talks are not going to work.

當然，他們必須參與進來，並表明他們不是導致談判無法成功的因素。

So where are Ukraine's red lines now, Nick?

那麼，尼克，烏克蘭現在的紅線在哪裡？

As Julia was explaining, they do seem to have shifted.

正如茱莉亞所解釋的，它們似乎確實有所轉變。

I think on the front lines, on walking out of Donetsk region, of the parts of the region that Ukraine still controls, that is still a red line, we've had all these suggestions from the American side of some kind of vaguely formulated free economic zone in the remaining parts of Donetsk that Ukraine currently controls, that maybe, for instance, the Russian army wouldn't move in, but

我認為在前線，關於離開頓內茨克地區，烏克蘭仍然控制的那些地區，這仍然是一條紅線，我們看到美國方面提出了一些模糊的建議，說在烏克蘭目前控制的頓內茨克剩餘地區設立一個模糊的自由經濟區，也許，舉個例子，俄羅斯軍隊不會進入，但是

potentially Russian police or some other kind of force, that some international force would be looking after that area and US Financial interests would be active there.

潛在的俄羅斯警察或其他某種部隊，某些國際部隊將會負責該地區，美國的金融利益也會在那裡活躍。

None of that flies from a Ukrainian perspective.

從烏克蘭的角度來看，這些都行不通。

They do not believe that, you know, if, if the Ukrainian army were to leave, which they first don't want to do, because they've been spending four years defending that territory, they are convinced that the Russians will move in one way or another earlier rather than later.

他們不相信，你知道，如果，如果烏克蘭軍隊要撤離，他們首先不想這麼做，因為他們花了四年時間保衛那片領土，他們確信俄羅斯會或早或晚以某種方式進入。

They've said we can freeze the front lines where they are right now, but

他們說我們可以凍結目前的前線，但是

we are not going to give up territory that we have spent years and thousands of lives defending, because eventually that is going to lead to a political crisis back here in Kyiv if Zelensky were to agree to that.

我們不會放棄我們花費多年和數千條生命保衛的領土，因為最終這將導致基輔這裡的政治危機，如果澤倫斯基同意的話。

So, Julia Saudi, despite these talks starting here in Berlin yesterday, the German chancellor wasn't involved.

所以，茱莉亞說，儘管昨天在柏林開始了這些會談，德國總理並沒有參與。

Will Germany and European leaders, will they step up today to try and shape the outcome of today's talks?

德國和歐洲領導人，他們今天會站出來試圖影響今天會談的結果嗎？

And even though German Chancellor Frederic Metz didn't step stay for the entire duration of the talks, we know that he welcomed both delegations into the chancellery so his office and that he started the meeting and we saw him sitting next to Ukrainian President Volodymyos Zelensky on the other side of the table from the US delegation, which is quite striking.

雖然德國總理弗雷德裡克·梅茲沒有全程參與會談，但我們知道他歡迎雙方代表團進入總理府，也就是他的辦公室，並且他主持了會議，我們看到他坐在烏克蘭總統澤倫斯基旁邊，與美國代表團相對而坐，這相當引人注目。

So Metz was there, he introduced the meeting and then left.

所以梅茲在場，他介紹了會議然後離開了。

But we are going to see a big show in political force coming from European countries today with Zelensky meeting a lot of German political representatives here in Berlin, but

但我們今天將看到歐洲國家展現強大的政治力量，澤倫斯基將在這裡的柏林與許多德國政治代表會面，而且

also a very long list of European leaders showing up this evening to also show their support for Ukraine.

今晚還有許多歐洲領導人也會現身，以表達他們對烏克蘭的支持。

And we've also seen with Matz giving a speech on the weekend about how he has realized that the Pax Americana, basically the US Guaranteeing a security status and a security situation of peace across the world is not the reality anymore.

我們也看到梅茲週末發表了一篇演講，內容是關於他已經意識到，美國主導的和平，也就是美國確保全球安全局勢和和平現狀，已經不再是現實了。

And we see that Europeans seem to be becoming more aware of the fact that they have to push themselves for negotiations to lead to peace in Ukraine, but

我們看到歐洲人似乎越來越意識到，他們必須努力推動談判以實現烏克蘭的和平，同時

also to draw their path forward in terms of their own security.

也要在自身安全方面規劃自己的道路。

Our DW correspondents, Julia Saudelli in Berlin and Nick Connolly in Kiev, thank you both.

我們的 DW 記者，在柏林的茱莉亞·索德利和在基輔的尼克·康諾利，謝謝你們兩位。