Name: 本-奧克里談 T.S. 艾略特 - 附 5x15 (Ben Okri on T.S. Eliot - with 5x15)
Uploaded: 2025-10-13T18:19:07.000Z
Duration: 16 min 12 s

First of all, it's a real pleasure to be here.

情態副詞

Clearly I'm out of touch with the traditions at 5x15, so I don't have any notes.

顯然我對 5x15 的傳統不太熟悉，所以沒有準備講稿。

In the early days, that was a terrifying thing about doing 5x15.

早期的時候，這是我做 5x15 覺得很可怕的一件事。

And every time Rosie Boycott asked me to do one of them, I would, well, panic and freeze and eventually drag myself here.

每次 Rosie Boycott 問我要不要講一個的時候，我都會，嗯，很緊張、很慌，然後最後才硬著頭皮來到這裡。

I could have chosen, when offered to speak about an English Heritage Blue plaque, many figures I could have chosen Hendrix and Handel in soho, lived in the same house, a couple of hundred years apart, but

當初被邀請講述 English Heritage Blue plaque 的時候，我可以選擇很多人物，我可以選擇 Hendrix 和 Handel 在 soho，他們住在同一棟房子，相隔幾百年，但

I could have chosen black composers, many different figures.

我也可以選擇黑人作曲家，很多不同的人物。

But I chose TS for one very simple reason.

This is the hundredth anniversary of the publication in book form of the Wasteland.

這是《Wasteland》首次以書籍形式出版的一百週年。

I was asked by a friend last year to do a reading of the Wasteland.

去年有位朋友邀請我朗誦《Wasteland》。

I said foolishly, yes, began to read it and thought, this is a difficult poem to read out from a book.

我當時傻傻地答應了，開始讀之後，就覺得這首詩很難從書本裡唸出來。

The meter is so perfect that if you stumble and try and find a place in the book, you'll get lost.

它的格律太完美了，如果你在這裡磕磕巴巴，想在書裡找到地方，你就會迷失。

So on holiday I began to learn it by heart.

所以，我在度假時開始把它背下來。

I thought it was the only thing I could do, the only sensible way to deal with this problem.

我覺得這是唯一能做的事，是處理這個問題唯一明智的方法。

And as I learned it and began to unpick and unpack this great poem, one of the longest poems in the English language and one of the most influential, many questions began to occur to me and I'll share one of the key ones.

當我學會它，開始拆解和理解這首偉大的詩時，這首詩是英語中最長、影響力最大的詩之一，許多問題開始浮現，我會分享其中一個關鍵問題。

But first of all, T.S. eliot blue plaque, two addresses, many addresses.

但首先，T.S. Eliot 的藍色牌匾，有兩個地址，很多地址。

He lived in London, many houses, he moved a lot.

他住在倫敦，很多房子，他搬了很多次家。

But there are two famous addresses associated with him.

但有兩個著名的地址與他有關。

One, uncharacteristically and not surprisingly, is one Homer Row.

一個是 Homer Row，這點有點出乎意料，但又在情理之中。

Now, people who love poetry would be would wonder if TS Elo deliberately chose that address.

喜歡詩的人可能會想，TS Elo 是不是故意選了這個地址。

And the other is three Kensington Church Gardens in Kensington.

另一個是 Kensington 的 Kensington Church Gardens 三號。

Both of them happen to be my general neighborhood.

I'm extending the word neighborhood generously here and every now and again I entertain the fantasy that I could go around to TSA Lut's house and have a drink or tea and wonder how he would receive me.

這裡的「附近」我說得比較寬鬆，我偶爾會幻想，也許可以去 TSA Lut 家喝杯茶，猜想他會怎麼接待我。

But taking you Back to learning T.S. eliot, the Wasteland.

但我們還是回到學習 T.S. Eliot 的《Wasteland》。

So I began to learn it and every day at home I'd pick the poem up, read it out aloud, and

所以我開始學它，每天在家裡拿起這首詩，大聲唸出來，

after about the 15th time, when I began the poem, my daughter, who's seven years old, finished the first verse and I thought to myself, well, if my daughter, who is six, can finish the first verse before I've learnt it, I might be able to do the same Thing.

大約唸了 15 次之後，當我開始唸這首詩時，我七歲的女兒，她唸完了第一段，我心想，嗯，如果我女兒，她才六歲，在我還沒學會之前就能唸完第一段，那我應該也可以。

So we now have this thing where I do this reading.

所以我們現在有個習慣，我會這樣唸。

London Library, Marylebone Theatre, and at the Wimbledon Literary Theatre, sponsored by the Wimbledon Philosophical Society.

London Library、Marylebone Theatre，還有 Wimbledon Literary Theatre，由 Wimbledon Philosophical Society 贊助。

But the T.S. eliot Society is very strict, very strict about T.S. eliot.

但 T.S. Eliot Society 對 T.S. Eliot 非常嚴格，非常嚴格。

You're not allowed to have any movement, any music to T.S. eliot's words.

你不能對 T.S. Eliot 的文字加入任何動作、任何音樂。

So as long as you're saying the words, nobody can move on stage apart from you.

所以只要你唸出文字，舞臺上除了你之外，誰都不能動。

So we had the music and the dance in between the big sections.

所以我們在幾個大段落之間，加入了音樂和舞蹈。

I'm aware of the poignancy of the first section of the wasteland in the world we're in today.

我明白在我們現在這個世界裡，《Wasteland》第一段的感傷。

Where there's war in Ukraine and the Middle East.

這是一個充滿悲劇和悲傷的時刻。

And the first section is called the Burial of the Dead.

Breeding lilacs out of the dead land Mixing memory and desire Stirring dull roots with spring rain.

從死寂的土地裡培養紫丁香，混合記憶與慾望，用春雨攪動遲鈍的根。

I discovered that beginning with April was one of T.S. eliot's great techniques.

我發現以四月開頭是 T.S. Eliot 的一大技巧。

Because he was going back in choosing April to the beginning of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales.

因為他選擇四月，是回溯到 Chaucer 的《Canterbury Tales》開頭。

If you read the prologue, it begins with April and the cruelty, the celebration of spring, which T.S.

如果你讀過序曲，開頭就是四月和殘酷，以及對春天的讚頌，而 T.S.

Every line, I discovered, has beneath it entire history of English literature and indeed Western literature.

我發現，每一行之下都蘊藏著整個英國文學，乃至西方文學的歷史。

Winter kept us warm, covering earth with forgetful snow.

冬天讓我們溫暖，用遺忘的雪覆蓋大地。

用乾枯的塊莖滋養著微小的生命。

Summer surprised us, coming over the Stambergazee with a shower of rain.

夏天出乎意料地到來，伴隨著一陣雨，從 Stambergazee 飄來。

We stopped in the colonnade and went on in sunlight into the Hof Garten and drank coffee and talked for an hour.

我們在柱廊停下，然後在陽光下走進 Hof Garten，喝咖啡，聊了一個小時。

Binger kaine rusin stamm auslitaun ek Deutsch.

Binger kaine rusin stamm auslitaun ek Deutsch。

And when we were children staying at the Archdukes, my cousins.

而當我們還是小孩，住在 Archdukes 那裡，我的表親們。

He took me out on a sled and I was frightened.

他帶我坐雪橇出去，我嚇壞了。

I read much of the night and go south in winter.

我晚上讀了很多書，冬天就往南走。

By the time he arrived in London, he'd already written those great early poems.

等他抵達倫敦時，他已經寫了那些偉大的早期詩作。

He came to London and met the Bloomsbury crowd.

他來到倫敦，認識了 Bloomsbury 這群人。

Virginia Woolf 在 Yates 遇見了其他人。

His marriage, as everybody knows, was difficult.

眾所周知，他的婚姻生活很艱難。

And out of the difficulty of his marriage, the difficulty of his life in those early stages, along with what was going on in the Western world, the wars raging, out of all of this came what he called a grumble in verse.

而他婚姻的艱難、早期生活的艱難，再加上西方世界正在發生的事情、正在進行的戰爭，這一切都讓他產生了他所說的「詩歌中的抱怨」。

T.S. eliot was a man of masks, of guises.

T.S. Eliot 是個戴著面具、扮演不同角色的人。

Virginia Woolf, talking about a visit that TSLO had paid them one day, noticed that he had rouge on his face, that sometimes he had a little lipstick.

Virginia Woolf 在談到 TSLO 有一天拜訪他們時，注意到他臉上擦了胭脂，有時候還會塗點口紅。

He cultivated the pose of a gentle, perfect gentleman.

他培養了一種溫文儒雅、完美紳士的形象。

But at the same time, in the publishing house where he worked later on, Faber and Faber, he was known as a bit of a practical joker.

但同時，在他後來工作的 Faber and Faber 出版社，他卻是個出了名的愛開玩笑的人。

And during board meetings he was known to actually arrange a firecracker underneath the chair of Mr.

在董事會會議期間，他還會偷偷在 Faber 先生的椅子底下放鞭炮。

Faber, which would go off at an appropriate moment.

This is the question I asked myself about Mr. Elliot.

這是我問自己關於 Elliot 先生的問題。

eliot, who is already quite famous, infamous in many literary circles for the antisemitism shown in his early poems.

Eliot，這位在他早期詩作中展現的反猶主義，在許多文學圈中已聲名狼藉。

An antisemitism, I may add, which he regretted later in life.

我得說，這種反猶主義，是他後來後悔的。

I found myself in the States not that long ago, and There was a T.S.

我前陣子在美國，正好有一個 T.S.

eliot conference and attended a lecture by Anita Patterson.

Eliot 的研討會，聽了一場 Anita Patterson 的演講。

She talked about something called synthetic homage, a concept invented by someone called Ed Pavlich.

她談到一個叫做「合成致敬」（synthetic homage）的概念，這是 Ed Pavlich 發明的。

Ed Pavlich was elaborating on a concept in the famous black African American critic Colgates.

Ed Pavlich 當時正在闡述一位著名的黑人美國評論家 Colgates 的概念。

Synthetic homage is a kind of reading whereby a text illuminates previously unsuspected, suppressed aspects of another text.

合成致敬是一種閱讀方式，讓某個文本照亮了另一個文本中先前未曾察覺、被壓抑的面向。

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本-奧克里談 T.S. 艾略特 - 附 5x15 (Ben Okri on T.S. Eliot - with 5x15)

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