Name: 特朗普對美國國立衛生研究院（NIH）的 "開刀 "導致科學人才流失--弗朗西斯-柯林斯博士 (A Scientific Brain Drain Has Followed Trump’s Gutting Of The NIH - Dr. Francis Collins)
Uploaded: 2025-07-20T17:05:54.000Z
Duration: 7 min 42 s

Ladies and gentlemen, my next guest tonight is a brilliant physician, geneticist, and Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient who served as the director of the National Institutes of Health for 12 years.

女士們、先生們，今晚我的下一位嘉賓是一位傑出的醫生、遺傳學家和總統自由勳章得主，他曾擔任美國國立衛生研究院院長長達 12 年之久。

Please welcome back to The Late Show, Dr. Francis Collins.

歡迎弗朗西斯-柯林斯博士回到 "深夜秀"。

You know, my dad was in the NIH for many years.

你知道，我父親在美國國立衛生研究院工作了很多年。

Earlier this year, you retired from the National Institutes of Health.

今年早些時候，您從美國國立衛生研究院退休。

You're no longer the director, but you were still over there doing research.

你不再是導演了，但你還在那裡做研究。

Okay, you served there as director for 12 years, as I said, under three presidents.

好吧，正如我所說，你在那裡擔任了 12 年的主任，歷經三任總統。

Well, I hadn't really planned that until it became pretty untenable to stay.

其實，我本來也沒打算這麼做，直到後來實在呆不下去了。

We get instructions that we are not supposed to go to scientific meetings, not supposed to speak to the public in any sort of way.

我們得到的訓示是，我們不應該參加科學會議，不應該以任何方式與公眾交談。

We're not allowed to order any supplies to do the research.

And basically, we're told, don't start any new projects.

基本上，我們被告知，不要啟動任何新項目。

Just, you know, keep doing the kinds of things that you were already doing, but nothing new.

就是，你知道，繼續做你已經在做的事情，但不要有新的東西。

So you go ahead and be a scientist, but don't do science.

所以，你可以繼續做科學家，但不要做科學。

And, you know, I thought that'll be a short-term thing.

而且，你知道，我認為這只是短期行為。

But after a few weeks, it was pretty clear that wasn't getting any better.

但幾周後，情況顯然沒有好轉。

I'm not able to come up with scientific ideas with my team that I'd like to pursue.

我無法與我的團隊一起提出我想追求的科學想法。

The message was, this is a government agency, the National Institutes of Health.

資訊是，這是一個政府機構，國家衛生研究院。

It's probably full of waste, fraud, and and we better just stop everything until we can figure out what we need to get rid of.

它可能充滿了浪費、欺詐，我們最好停止一切，直到我們能找出我們需要擺脫的東西。

Did they find any waste, fraud, and abuse?

他們有沒有發現任何浪費、欺詐和濫用？

Depending on who you ask, I would say very little.

Having run the place for 12 years, the people at NIH, the most amazingly dedicated, hardworking, selfless people trying to find answers.

我在這裡工作了 12 年，NIH 的員工是最敬業、最勤奮、最無私的人，他們都在努力尋找答案。

Well, I assume you must, you know, having been there so long, you must have, you know, lowest I've ever seen it.

好吧，我想你一定，你知道，在那裡呆了這麼久，你一定，你知道，我見過的最低的。

People who really thought they were there to make that next breakthrough happen, or at least build a pathway towards that, aren't sure anymore whether that's still possible.

那些真的以為自己在那裡是為了實現下一個突破，或者至少是為下一個突破鋪平道路的人，已經不確定這是否還有可能。

Particularly worried about young scientists who are maybe on this path towards being that next person to win the Nobel Prize.

尤其是那些年輕的科學家，他們也許正走在成為下一個諾貝爾獎得主的道路上。

And now they're just not sure that that's going to be possible in the United States of America.

現在，他們只是不確定這在美利堅合眾國是否可能。

And many of them, like one of my former graduate students who can't seem to find an offer in a really good lab, even though it's probably the best student I've had in 10 years, he's looking at Australia.

他們中的很多人，就像我以前的一個研究所學生，似乎無法在一個真正好的實驗室找到工作，儘管他可能是我 10 年來最好的學生，但他正在考慮去澳洲。

That's the kind of brain drain that's going to happen going the other way.

We took wonderful benefit from having so many scientists come to our shores.

有這麼多科學家來到我們的海岸，我們受益匪淺。

The United States has always had the pick of the litter.

So Australia to help the kangaroos, where else?

所以，澳洲要幫助袋鼠，還能去哪裡？

Europe, the United Kingdom, depending on what language you speak.

歐洲、英國，取決於你說什麼語言。

If you happen to be a Chinese student, the Chinese are offering you all kinds of opportunities to come back because, you know, China thought they had to compete with America to be top of the pack here.

如果你碰巧是一名中國學生，中國人會為你提供各種機會讓你回來，因為你知道，中國認為他們必須與美國競爭，成為這裡的佼佼者。

They must be looking at this and they can't believe their luck.

他們看到這個一定不敢相信自己的運氣。

Well, how long before we get a sense of this brain drain?

那麼，我們還要多久才能感受到這種人才流失呢？

Like how long before this is going to affect our future health care?

比如，這還要多久才會影響到我們未來的醫療保健？

And the kind of things that have happened in these six months, 2,500 projects were stopped without any particular reason to explain that cancer was a cancer cancer, Alzheimer's disease, rare diseases caused by genetic misspellings.

而在這六個月裡發生的事情，有 2500 個項目在沒有任何特殊原因的情況下被停止，以解釋癌症是癌症、老年痴呆症、基因拼寫錯誤導致的罕見疾病。

HIV research was pretty much stopped cold.

And certainly vaccine research has taken a serious downward turn.

當然，疫苗研究也出現了嚴重的下滑。

You can't just turn that back on again when it happens like that.

發生這種情況時，你不能再把它打開。

And the way in which this plays out, what NIH does is through the taxpayer support all over this country, supports all the science that you build as a foundation upon which that breakthrough may happen.

NIH所做的就是通過全國納稅人的支持，支持所有的科學研究，將其作為實現突破的基礎。

It may not happen for 10 years, but we're mortgaging that opportunity now by having that foundation in such deep trouble.

也許 10 年後才會發生，但我們現在把這個機會作為抵押，讓基金會陷入如此嚴重的困境。

Your book, The Road to Wisdom, hopes to find a way to unify our polarized society.

您的著作《通往智慧之路》希望找到一種方法來統一我們這個兩極分化的社會。

You appeal to a group in this book called The Exhausted Middle.

在這本書中，你吸引了一個名為 "精疲力竭的中間層 "的群體。

我們如何才能真正做到這一點？

Yeah, I think people are just worn out with all the controversy, all the outrage Olympics that seems to be flying back and forth all the time.

是的，我認為人們只是厭倦了所有的爭議，所有的憤怒，奧林匹克似乎一直在來回飛舞。

The animosity, the grievances, it's just like, ah, I'm going to have to check out.

敵意、怨氣，就好像，啊，我得退房了。

It's about two-thirds of the country that has the best chance of bringing us back to where we want to be.

全國大約有三分之二的人最有可能把我們帶回我們想要的地方。

We worry about things like our national debt, what you might call a fiscal deficit.

我們擔心國債等問題，也就是所謂的財政赤字。

But Stephen, we have other deficits that politics aren't going to solve.

但是，斯蒂芬，我們還有其他赤字，政治是解決不了的。

We're in a place now where there seems to be no real penalty for saying something that's demonstrably false.

我們現在的處境是，說一些明顯虛假的話似乎不會受到真正的懲罰。

We have a trust deficit where because people don't know if they can be sure somebody's telling the truth, why should I trust that person?

我們有信任赤字，因為人們不知道自己是否能確定某人說的是實話，所以我為什麼要相信那個人？

So we stop trusting each other most of the time.

是以，我們大多數時候都不再信任對方。

And that's dangerous also for our future.

But you know what I'm worried about most?

How can it have become normalized not to be concerned about our fellow human beings, even if they're not living in our house?

不關心我們的同胞，即使他們不住在我們的房子裡，怎麼會變得正常呢？

Maybe they're down the street suffering, or maybe they're in another part of the globe suffering.

也許他們就在街上受苦，也許他們在地球的另一個地方受苦。

Predictions are that since the plug was pulled on USAID and PEPFAR, 90,000 children have died unnecessarily.

據預測，自美國國際開發署（USAID）和 "總統艾滋病緊急救援計劃"（PEPFAR）被撤消以來，已有 9 萬名兒童死於非命。

That's the prediction from the people who follow this closely.

這是密切關注此事的人的預測。

If we want to flourish as a society, that's what we need to do.

如果我們希望社會繁榮昌盛，這就是我們需要做的。

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特朗普對美國國立衛生研究院（NIH）的 "開刀 "導致科學人才流失--弗朗西斯-柯林斯博士 (A Scientific Brain Drain Has Followed Trump’s Gutting Of The NIH - Dr. Francis Collins)

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