Name: 中情局心理學：提問讓人們暴露一切 | 安德魯-布斯塔曼特 (CIA psychology: Ask questions that make people reveal everything | Andrew Bustamante)
Uploaded: 2025-06-30T15:58:44.000Z
Duration: 16 min 46 s

基礎被動語態

This Big Think interview segment is sponsored by BetterHelp, an online platform that makes therapy accessible and affordable.

本期 Big Think 訪談由 BetterHelp 贊助，BetterHelp 是一個在線平臺，它使治療變得方便且經濟實惠。

Visit betterhelp.com slash Big Think for 10% off your first month.

訪問 betterhelp.com slash Big Think，第一個月可享受 10% 折扣。

反身代名詞

When you accept that other people have secrets and they will always have secrets, you are preparing yourself for a much more predictable, much more successful future.

當你接受別人有祕密，而且他們永遠都有祕密的事實時，你就為自己更可預見、更成功的未來做好了準備。

Because once you accept that reality, you can start applying behaviors, practices into your personal life, into your business life that make it so that you gain more secrets than you share.

因為一旦你接受了這一現實，你就可以開始在個人生活和商業生活中運用各種行為和做法，讓你獲得的祕密比你分享的更多。

And gaining secrets in an economy of secrets is the same thing as gaining wealth or gaining power or gaining leverage.

而在祕密經濟中獲得祕密，與獲得財富、權力或籌碼是一回事。

You can either live in a world that is not true and believe that people are honest, or you can live in a world that is factual and objective and recognize that all people are keeping secrets from you.

你可以生活在一個不真實的世界裡，相信人們都是誠實的；你也可以生活在一個真實客觀的世界裡，認識到所有人都對你有所隱瞞。

I remember being a kid and my stepdad used to always look at me and tell me that the world isn't fair.

我記得小時候，繼父總是看著我，告訴我世界是不公平的。

And I never understood that because all day at school, all people told me was that I had to act in a way that was fair to other people.

我一直不明白，因為在學校裡，人們整天告訴我，我必須以對其他人公平的方式行事。

Everybody was trying to police this idea of fairness, but then I would come home at night and I would receive these lectures about how the world isn't fair.

每個人都在努力維護公平的理念，但晚上回到家，我就會收到關於世界如何不公平的說教。

It still didn't make sense to me all through college and even through my military career until I joined CIA.

在我整個大學甚至整個軍旅生涯中，直到我加入中央情報局之前，這對我來說仍然是沒有意義的。

And CIA was able to explain to me that fairness is a construct that helps to create predictability in human behavior.

中央情報局能夠向我解釋，公平是一種有助於在人類行為中創造可預測性的結構。

When people believe there is some sort of level of fairness, when people believe that there is some sort of egalitarian level that keeps us all on equal footing, then you can actually predict and control a society in the longterm.

當人們相信存在某種程度的公平，當人們相信存在某種程度的平等主義，讓我們所有人都處於平等的地位，那麼你就可以真正預測並長期控制一個社會。

Whereas what we were trained to do as CIA officers was infiltrate those societies and abuse or exploit the areas that were kept secret from the masses.

而我們作為中情局官員所接受的訓練是滲透到這些社會中，濫用或利用那些對大眾保密的領域。

We were charged with stealing secrets from terrorist groups.

我們被指控從恐怖組織那裡竊取機密。

We were charged with stealing secrets from foreign militaries.

我們被指控從外國軍方竊取機密。

We were charged with stealing secrets from scientists of foreign countries that were trying to create nuclear capabilities or new weapons.

我們被指控從試圖製造核能力或新武器的外國科學家那裡竊取機密。

We had to go into this organization that believed in some semblance of fairness to find the few that were willing to compromise on secrets they were trusted with because they inherently doubted that everything was in fact fair.

我們不得不進入這個相信某種公平的組織，去尋找少數幾個願意在他們信任的祕密上妥協的人，因為他們天生就懷疑一切是否真的公平。

We live in a world that is constantly jockeying and vying for more power, more information, more influence, more leverage.

我們生活在一個不斷爭奪更多權力、更多資訊、更大影響力和更多籌碼的世界。

But we call it fair in order to reduce the number of competitors who are trying to get that edge.

但我們稱之為公平，是為了減少試圖獲得這種優勢的競爭者的數量。

When the majority of people are willing to accept that there is some level of fairness, they stop trying to gain an edge, which means that it's only a limited few that are truly competing for the top slot.

當大多數人願意接受某種程度的公平時，他們就不會再試圖獲得優勢，這意味著只有有限的幾個人真正在爭奪第一名。

When you look at that through a lens of survival instinct, that means if you are trying to survive, you have a better chance of surviving when you let go of the idea that there is fairness and you lean in to accept the fact that there are predictable behaviors, predictable tools, leverage, manipulation tactics, motivational tactics that can create high probability outcomes that benefit you.

當你從生存本能的角度來看待這個問題時，這意味著如果你想生存下去，當你放棄公平的想法，傾心接受這樣一個事實，即存在著可預測的行為、可預測的工具、槓桿、操縱策略、激勵策略，這些都可以創造出有利於你的高概率結果，你就有更大的機會生存下去。

There's a concept we have at CIA that helps us to frame the entire world around us, whether it's personal relationships or geopolitics or even strategic intent.

我們中情局有一個概念，可以幫助我們構建我們周圍的整個世界，無論是人際關係還是地緣政治，甚至是戰略意圖。

And that's by understanding that we are all governed by what we call an economy of secrets.

那就是要明白，我們都受制於所謂的 "祕密經濟"。

If you think back to Economics 101 from whether you were in high school or college, you understand that economics is all about understanding that there is a limited supply and there is always demand.

如果你回想一下高中或大學的經濟學 101 課，你就會明白經濟學的核心是理解有限的供應和始終存在的需求。

The economy of secrets is the exact same way.

There are always going to be secrets and those secrets will be in limited supply, but everybody wants access to secrets.

祕密總是有的，而這些祕密的供應是有限的，但每個人都想獲得祕密。

So there is an infinite demand for the secrets that are out there.

是以，人們對這些祕密的需求是無限的。

Personal secrets, trade secrets, geopolitical secrets, economic secrets, financial secrets.

個人祕密、商業祕密、地緣政治祕密、經濟祕密、金融祕密。

There's always a demand for secrets and whether we want to admit it or not, we understand that some secrets we want to keep until they're useful to us and other secrets are so valuable, we will never share them ever.

人們總是對祕密有需求，不管我們願不願意承認，我們都明白，有些祕密我們想保留到對我們有用為止，而有些祕密則非常寶貴，我們永遠不會與人分享。

But somehow, simultaneously, we expect other people to share their secrets with us and we want access to the secrets that other people know that we don't know, sometimes just for curiosity, sometimes because we want to use it for a competitive advantage, sometimes because we just feel like we are entitled to understanding or knowing someone else's secrets.

但不知何故，同時我們又希望別人能與我們分享他們的祕密，我們希望獲得別人知道而我們不知道的祕密，有時只是出於好奇，有時是因為我們想利用它來獲得競爭優勢，有時只是因為我們覺得我們有權瞭解或知道別人的祕密。

All of that is an example of the economy of secrets and the very real pressure that exists on the supply and demand side of that economy of secrets.

所有這些都是祕密經濟的一個例子，也是祕密經濟供需雙方所面臨的真實壓力的一個例子。

Recognizing the value of secrets isn't something that's difficult for the average person.

認識到祕密的價值對普通人來說並不困難。

We all understand secrets that we don't want to share and secrets that we do want to know and the value related to those secrets.

我們都知道不想分享的祕密和想知道的祕密，以及這些祕密的價值。

There are many different types of secrets.

There's secrets that people have that they don't want to share because they did something wrong.

有些祕密，人們不願與人分享，因為他們做了錯事。

There are secrets that people have and they don't want to share because they're respecting someone else's privacy.

有些祕密，人們不想分享，因為他們尊重別人的隱私。

There's secrets that happen because you tricked someone into saying or doing something.

有些祕密的發生，是因為你欺騙了別人，讓他說了或做了什麼。

There's secrets that occur because it was passed to you by someone else and you're not sure what to do with it.

有些祕密是別人傳給你的，你不知道該如何處理。

There's a whole litany of different types of secrets and every secret has value to gain leverage in some way, shape, or form.

有一連串不同類型的祕密，每個祕密都有以某種方式、形狀或形式獲得影響力的價值。

But understanding that there are different types of secrets is not a way of saying that all secrets are the same or have the same value.

但是，理解祕密有不同的類型，並不是說所有的祕密都是一樣的或具有相同的價值。

Some secrets get you a great deal of leverage.

有些祕密會給你帶來很大的籌碼。

Other secrets get you very little leverage.

其他祕訣只能給你帶來很小的影響。

In fact, even the terminology that CIA uses to measure secrets isn't the same.

事實上，就連中情局用來衡量機密的術語也不盡相同。

CIA classifies their secrets according to different terminology.

中央情報局根據不同的術語對機密進行分類。

There's confidential secrets, there are secret level secrets, and then there are top secret secrets.

有機密，有祕密級機密，還有絕密級機密。

And the way that they define each of these different levels actually has to do with the impact that would occur if the secret became public knowledge.

而他們定義這些不同級別的方式，實際上與祕密被公眾知曉後會產生的影響有關。

So a confidential secret is a secret that could potentially do damage to national security.

是以，機密就是有可能對國家安全造成損害的祕密。

A secret level classification is something that would cause damage to national security.

祕密級機密是指會對國家安全造成損害的機密。

And top secret level secrets are secrets that would cause grave damage to national security.

而絕密級機密是指會對國家安全造成嚴重損害的機密。

So even if you just apply this simple three-step rubric to your own personal secrets or your own career secrets or your business secrets, you can see that not all secrets are the same.

是以，即使你只是把這個簡單的三步標準應用到自己的個人祕密、職業祕密或商業祕密上，你也會發現並不是所有的祕密都是一樣的。

The secrets that have more damaging outcomes are the secrets you want to keep and the secrets you want to gain.

危害性更大的祕密是你想保守的祕密和你想獲得的祕密。

And the secrets that have very limited impact are the secrets that you don't bother yourself with and that you're okay sharing or trading with someone else.

而影響非常有限的祕密，是你自己不會去管，也可以與別人分享或交易的祕密。

When you want to keep a secret, it's actually much easier than you might expect.

當你想保守祕密時，其實比你想象的要容易得多。

The first trick to keeping a secret is really just to limit how much you talk.

保守祕密的第一個訣竅其實就是限制你說話的次數。

如果你要說話，請用提問的方式。

Don't speak in terms of answers or dialogue or conversation.

不要用答案、對話或交談的方式說話。

Because even by the way that you answer a question, you actually start to expose some of your secrets.

因為即使是你回答問題的方式，實際上也開始暴露了你的一些祕密。

The words that you use, the pace that you speak, the level of excitement that you share when you talk.

你說話時的用詞、語速和興奮程度。

These are all ways that you can share with other people interpersonal secrets about you, your political beliefs, your religious beliefs, how much you care about your kids, how much you care about your job or your family.

你可以通過這些方式與他人分享你的人際祕密、你的政治信仰、你的宗教信仰、你對孩子的關心程度、你對工作或家庭的關心程度。

So it's actually very easy to start to protect yourself simply by speaking less or by being the person who speaks in questions rather than the person who carries on a conversation.

是以，要保護自己其實很容易，只需少說話，或者做一個在提問時說話的人，而不是進行對話的人。

Another way that you can keep your secrets is by understanding that when you have a conclusion that you reach in your mind, when you have a suspicion, when you have a curiosity, when you wonder if somebody is trustworthy, when you wonder if somebody is lying, when you think somebody might be stealing from the boss, instead of sharing that information with somebody else, you just keep it for yourself.

另一種保守祕密的方法是，當你心中有結論時，當你有懷疑時，當你有好奇心時，當你懷疑某人是否值得信任時，當你懷疑某人是否在撒謊時，當你認為某人可能在偷老闆的東西時，你不要把這些資訊告訴別人，而是自己留著。

And you allow time to continue to pass by, to give yourself more information, more time to assess, more observational information to reach a conclusion that's actually meaningful.

你允許時間繼續流逝，給自己更多的資訊、更多的時間去評估、更多的觀察資訊，從而得出一個真正有意義的結論。

Because if you do catch someone lying, if you do catch someone embezzling, it's much more valuable to you to share that information when you have a preponderance of evidence that can actually confirm your suspicion.

因為如果你真的發現有人在撒謊，如果你真的發現有人在挪用公款，當你有大量證據可以證實你的懷疑時，分享這些資訊對你來說更有價值。

Where what many of us do is we feel the need to share our suspicions immediately.

而我們很多人的做法是，我們覺得有必要立即分享我們的懷疑。

We share our thoughts, our concerns, our issues right away because we think that there's value to be gained by having other people give us their opinion.

我們會立即分享我們的想法、我們的擔憂、我們的問題，因為我們認為讓其他人給我們提供意見是有價值的。

When in fact, the most valuable thing you can do is keep your secret to yourself and collect more information about it.

事實上，你能做的最有價值的事情就是保守祕密，收集更多相關資訊。

中央情報局是一個資訊收集機構。

We call it intelligence, but all intelligence really is, is having what we call information superiority, meaning the best and highest quantity of information compared to our competitors.

我們稱其為智能，但智能的真正含義是擁有所謂的資訊優勢，即與競爭對手相比擁有最好、最多的資訊。

When you have information superiority, you are deemed to have intelligence.

當你擁有資訊優勢時，你就被認為擁有智慧。

It's the same thing we say when we talk about an intelligent person.

我們在談論一個聰明人時也是這麼說的。

Intelligent people have a preponderance of information that is believable and useful to them.

聰明人掌握著大量可信且對他們有用的資訊。

It's just the same as having information superiority for CIA.

這與中情局擁有資訊優勢是一樣的。

Sometimes you wanna access somebody's secrets, but you wanna do it in a way where they don't realize you're prying or searching for secrets.

有時你想獲取別人的祕密，但你要做得讓他們意識不到你在窺探或尋找祕密。

We use a term called elicitation for this activity.

我們用一個叫 "誘導 "的詞來形容這項活動。

When you are trying to elicit specific information without demonstrating that you're interested in that specific information.

當你試圖獲取特定資訊時，卻沒有表明你對該特定資訊感興趣。

If you think about the average movie where you see a guy walk up to a girl in a bar, he's having a conversation to try to see whether or not she's interested or whether or not she has a boyfriend.

想想看，在一般的電影裡，你會看到一個男人在酒吧裡走到一個女孩身邊，和她交談，想知道她是否感興趣，或者她是否有男朋友。

He's talking about the weather, he's talking about the band, he's talking about mundane things, but what he's really doing is gaining assessment information from his target to see is she smiling at him?

他在談論天氣，談論樂隊，談論世俗的事情，但他真正在做的是獲取目標的評估資訊，看看她是否在對他微笑？

Is she wearing a wedding ring or an engagement ring?

她戴的是結婚戒指還是訂婚戒指？

The same thing is true when you're trying to collect secrets from other people.

當你試圖從別人那裡收集祕密時，也是同樣的道理。

One of the most powerful tools that you can use to elicit is really just to engage a person in a meaningful conversation with what we call open questions.

其中一個最有力的誘導工具就是用我們所說的開放式問題與人進行有意義的對話。

Open questions are questions that cannot be answered in a single word or a short phrase.

開放性問題是指無法用一個詞或一個短語來回答的問題。

So for example, a yes or no question is not an open question.

例如，"是 "或 "否 "的問題就不是開放式問題。

Asking somebody whether or not they like their meal or if they're happy or if they've had a good day, none of those are open-ended questions.

問某人是否喜歡他們的飯菜、是否開心、是否度過了美好的一天，這些都不是開放式問題。

Open-ended questions start with words like how or why or to what extent or tell me about.

開放式問題以 "如何"、"為什麼"、"到什麼程度 "或 "告訴我 "等詞語開頭。

When you ask an open-ended question, the person who's hearing your question has to interpret it through their own psychology, their own perception, their own lens of beliefs and biases.

當你提出一個開放式問題時，聽到你問題的人必須通過自己的心理、自己的感知、自己的信念和偏見來解釋這個問題。

And because they have to interpret your question, they oftentimes share much more information than they intended to share.

因為他們必須解釋你的問題，所以他們分享的資訊往往比他們想分享的要多得多。

So when you ask somebody what are your thoughts about the current events in the Middle East, you will get much more information than what you ever thought you would expect because they will share their opinions, their beliefs, their background.

是以，當你問一個人你對中東時事有什麼看法時，你會得到比你想象的要多得多的資訊，因為他們會分享他們的觀點、信仰和背景。

You may even see whether or not they're knowledgeable about what's happening in the Middle East at any given time.

你甚至可以看到他們是否瞭解中東在任何特定時間發生的事情。

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中情局心理學：提問讓人們暴露一切 | 安德魯-布斯塔曼特 (CIA psychology: Ask questions that make people reveal everything | Andrew Bustamante)

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