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字幕列表 影片播放

  • What if politics weren't to blame for the institutional corruption,

    如果政治對體制腐敗 永無休止的戰爭

  • the endless wars and the burgeoning homelessness?

    和急速增加的無家可歸不需負責的話呢?

  • What if rather these are just symptoms born out of an outdated social structure?

    如果這些都只是過時的社會結構誕生出的症狀又該如何?

  • That's the revolutionary idea behind the explosive Zeitgeist documentary trilogy.

    這是衝擊性的《時代精神》紀錄片三部曲背後的革命性思想

  • Since the first movie's release in 2007,

    自從第一部電影在2007年發布

  • these documentaries have been translated into 40 different languages,

    這些紀錄片已翻譯成40種不同的語言

  • and have been seen by hundreds of millions of people around the world.

    且世界各地成千上萬的人皆已看過

  • But the ideas brought forward by the documentaries quickly transcended film

    但是這些紀錄片帶來的想法很快地超越了影片本身

  • and spawned The Zeitgeist Movement: a global-sustainability, advocacy organization

    並催生了「時代精神運動」:一個倡導永續性的全球組織

  • that's revolutionizing the way people think and act.

    正在徹底改變人們的思維方式和行為

  • Now, the filmmaker will be re-energizing the movement

    現在 此系列的電影製片人 將重新為此運動

  • with yet another series entitled 'Interreflections'.

    注入新活力 製作另一新系列影片 名為「Interreflections」

  • Here to talk about the 'Culture In Decline',

    但我們在這裡要談論《衰敗中的文化》系列影片

  • The Zeitgeist Movement and where there may be a glimmer of hope,

    及「時代精神運動」 並提供一線希望

  • I'm joined by the filmmaker himself, Peter Joseph.

    製片及導演彼得·約瑟夫 加入今天與我的對話

  • Peter, thanks so much for coming on. - It's my pleasure, Abby, thank you for having me.

    彼得 非常感謝你的蒞臨 -這是我的榮幸 艾比 謝謝你邀請我

  • - First of all, I think that these movies should be essential viewing

    -首先 我認為這些影片是地球上每一個人

  • for everyone on the planet because you really present these concepts

    都必須觀看的影片 因為就你表達的方式 你真的呈現出

  • that are not so much new or revolutionary as they are just glaringly obvious truths

    這些概念 與其說是新穎或革命性的 倒不如說它們只是

  • in the way you articulate them, Peter, but I wanted to get into how you got started.

    再明顯不過的真理 但彼得 我想了解你如何開始這些行動

  • As someone who worked in Wall Street and advertising, when did you step back

    身為在華爾街和廣告業工作過的人 你是從何時決定退一步

  • and analyze your own role in society and decide to radically change course?

    分析自己在整個社會中的角色 並決定從根本上改變人生歷程?

  • - Great question; it was a slow evolution really.

    -很棒的問題 這真的是一個緩慢的進化

  • Like many people brought up in this culture, you end up with

    就像很多在這種文化中長大的人一樣 你最終會遵循

  • a self-interest driven mechanism.

    一種由自我利益驅動的機制

  • I came from a middle class family; we had no real wealth.

    我來自一個中產階級的家庭 我家並不算富有

  • I came into the world, I went to school, I dropped out

    我來到這個世界 我上學 但我退學了

  • due to debt problems like many do today

    就像現在許多人因為就學/就業方面

  • in the educational college/career problem that we have

    有許多的債務問題

  • (most college debt is the peak of bankruptcy

    (總的來說 大部份大學債務

  • coupled with medical debts, in aggregate),

    再加上醫療債務是破產的高峰期)

  • and I began to realize that there's something going on with this system.

    然後我開始意識到這個社會體系有一些問題

  • I did stuff with Wall Street and advertising trying to keep my self-preservation going,

    我替華爾街和廣告業工作 試圖讓我明哲保身

  • and finally it dawned on me when I made this catharsis film in 2007

    然後當我在2007年製作電影作為宣洩時 我終於恍然大悟

  • just called 'Zeitgeist', which became 'Zeitgeist: The Movie'.

    這部電影稱為《時代精神》 之後變成《時代精神:電影》

  • It was a frustration piece that I made, it just sort of exploded in my mind

    這是我在沮喪時的創作 有點像在我心中炸開某個點

  • to the extent that I don't even know where it came from to be frank.

    其威力之大 坦白說我甚至不知道那種感覺從何出現

  • It was a big catharsis that I did which I threw up online.

    當我把它在網路上發表時 這是一種很大的宣洩

  • It became viral because I think people identified with the same issues and themes,

    它變得爆紅 因為我想人們對同樣的議題和主題心有戚戚焉

  • and then that triggered where I am today. I continue to move forward

    然後這些啟發造就了今天的我 接著我利用代表性的媒體

  • with representative media that is both entertaining

    發展下去 而它們就其追尋的品質而論

  • and value-shifting in the quality that it pursues,

    是既有趣且轉變人們價值觀的

  • but also extremely educational and ultimately activist-oriented,

    但也極具教育性 最終少不了行動者導向

  • and that's the whole purpose of my existence at this point.

    這一點就是我目前全部的存在目的

  • - Thanks for explaining that; let's get right into this. With the elections

    -感謝你的解釋 讓我們直接進入主題 大選不到兩週

  • coming up in less than two weeks, let's talk about the two-party system

    即將來臨 讓我們來談談你最近的影片

  • which you explore a little bit in a recent video that you made, called 'What Democracy?'.

    《啥鬼民主?》 你在裡面探討了一點點兩黨政治的系統

  • What purpose does this system serve to control the population?

    這套系統達成什麼目的來控制人口?

  • Do you advocate people to completely remove themselves

    你主張人們完全不參與選舉過程?

  • from the electoral process, or do you see some merit in supporting

    或你看到在支持第三方候選人和在地化政治

  • third party candidates and local politics?

    有可取之處?

  • - I think we have to deal with what we have at the moment.

    -我認為 我們必須處理現在的問題

  • People should be supporting referendums

    人們應該支持公投

  • because that's a form of direct democracy.

    因為這是直接民主的一種形式

  • But the aristocracy game that has emerged,

    但貴族遊戲已經出現

  • which is an outgrowth of basically the economic system

    基本上這是經濟體系的產物

  • which inherently generates hierarchy, is completely misunderstood.

    本質上產生了階級 但人們完全誤解此遊戲

  • We think we're in a different paradigm today than we were

    我們以為我們處在一個

  • during the age of kings and queens, but we're really not.

    不同於有國王和王后的時代 但其實不然

  • The kings and queens are behind the scenes and operate within the business/

    其實這些「國王/王后」都躲在幕後

  • industrial enterprise, which is the driving mechanism

    在商業/企業內部中運作 這當然是我們所擁有的

  • of all the values and institutions we have.

    所有價值觀及制度的驅動機制

  • The figureheads: the elections, the presidents, the Congress,

    傀儡:選舉 總統 國會

  • they serve as 'tools' to perpetuate

    這些都是作為他們的「手段」

  • the real driver of our economic system

    以延續我們經濟制度的真正推手

  • which is the monetary market economy itself.

    也就是金融貨幣市場經濟本身

  • Those values that are there confuse people,

    那些價值觀讓人混淆

  • and they think that when they go into a voting booth and elect somebody

    人們以為當他們進入投票亭並投票給某人時

  • that they're going to change something. But if you look at the historical record

    他們便能改變一些情況 但你若回頭看看歷史紀錄

  • (which many have not, especially since the beginning of America),

    (不幸的是許多並沒有 特別是從美國建國開始)

  • very little change has occurred.

    真的 當涉及到任何個人的選舉

  • Really, when it comes to the election of any single individual,

    或國會或任何的行動集團:國會 制度等

  • or the conglomerate actions of the Congress or whatever parliament institution,

    幾乎沒有改變已發生

  • this statistical element is lost unfortunately.

    不幸地 我們已失去這種統計數據

  • This isn't projection to say that "Oh it's just to be cynical

    這不是假設說:「哦 這只是憤世嫉俗

  • and say it doesn't matter if you vote," this is proven.

    而且你是否投票也沒差」 這是經過證明的

  • The effect of these elections is not given the correct gravity

    人們並未賦予這些選舉的效果適當的重視

  • because it's very small. I'd say maybe 10%

    因為影響力非常小 我會說也許只有10%

  • is how effective the election of a new president really may be.

    才是對於選出新總統可能是真正有效的

  • - Exactly, and it also serves to disempower

    -沒錯 它也有助於削弱人們的力量

  • and disillusion people into thinking that they do have a choice,

    並迷惑人們以為他們確實有選擇

  • and every 4 years nothing changes.

    當然 每4年選舉一次依然沒有什麼變化

  • It really is stifling humanity in that sense.

    在這種意義上確實扼殺人性

  • When people look at the current trajectory of the world,

    彼得 當人們看著世界的當前趨勢

  • it's obvious that we're pretty much on a crash course

    很明顯 我們幾乎在崩潰的過程中

  • based on a model of unsustainable growth, Peter.

    根植於不永續增長的模式

  • When people look at global capitalism

    當人們看到全球資本主義

  • some argue that "It's not a free and fair market,

    有些人認為:「這不是一個自由和公平的市場;

  • if cronyism were removed from the equation, capitalism would work."

    如果把裙帶關係從原則中刪除 資本主義就有效」

  • But is the two-tiered, just in that we're seeing today, the plutocratic governance

    但我們今天所看到的不公正[司法體制] 在財團治理

  • and endless war for resources, an inevitability of the capitalist model?

    和無止盡的資源爭奪戰底下 是資本主義不可避免的模式嗎?

  • - Unfortunately, I would have to declare that it is.

    -不幸的是 我必須聲明 它是

  • I know it's a heated subject and people love to argue with me.

    我知道這是一個別人愛跟我爭論的議題

  • I've had endless debates with people who say that the state is the problem,

    我已跟主張「國家或法規是問題」的人們

  • or regulation, and that the market should just be 'free' to do whatever it wants.

    爭論過無數次 他們認為市場應該是能「自由」隨心所欲的

  • I argue back that the market is as free as it ever was,

    我反駁說 市場始終都是一樣自由的 我會說

  • in fact it's more free I would say.

    實際上它現在比以往更自由

  • At least, in the past, there were restrictions on the market economy

    至少在過去 有對市場經濟的限制

  • and how it could influence the aristocracy's decision

    以及它如何影響貴族政府的決定

  • to basically rule everything through war.

    基本上是透過戰爭來統治一切 再說一次

  • Nothing has changed in this regard.

    在這方面並無任何改變

  • You go back to feudalism and you have the same tendency.

    若回顧封建主義 便能看到同樣趨勢

  • But the idea that something can be regulated

    但「可以控管某些東西」的這種想法

  • in a system that is inherently corrupt, in my view,

    在我看來 在本質上就是腐敗的系統裡...

  • a system that clearly says that you can get money

    一個系統明確主張 你可以得到錢

  • and have the freedom to do whatever you want with it,

    並能自由使用

  • hence the Supreme Court decision that says that

    因此 最高法院裁定

  • spending money for political campaigns is equated to free speech.

    在政治競選活動中花錢 實際上等同於言論自由

  • This delusion that we've come up with,

    我們已提出的這種錯覺

  • to say that we can spend money for whatever purpose possible

    說我們可以不管出於什麼目的而花錢

  • and influence anything, is at the core of the vast corruption we see.

    並儘可能影響任何東西 正是我們看到的廣大腐敗現象中的核心

  • You can go back to Marx and Thorstein Veblen, you can go back

    你可以回到馬克思 回到凡勃倫

  • to all sorts of thinkers in the early 20th century who,

    回到20世紀初期的各種思想家們

  • despite their criticisms, were on to something with this.

    儘管他們受到批評 但都察覺到此點

  • It is unfortunate how fast people are to shut down this idea.

    但很不幸 人們快速拒絕這種想法

  • My friend Lee Camp has a famous joke:

    我的朋友李肯普有個著名的笑話:

  • "We applaud politicians now,

    「我們現在為政治家鼓掌

  • that come and tell us that they're not going to give us health insurance in America,"

    然後他們就來告訴我們 在美國他們『不會』給我們健康保險」

  • or universal healthcare in America.

    或在美國的全民醫療

  • Why? Because this delusion of socialism has come forward.

    為什麼? 因為關於社會主義的幻覺已出現

  • Any type of communal attribute which isn't related to money,

    因此 若有任何不涉及金錢及金錢「自由」的

  • and the 'freedom' of money, now is being misconstrued

    「共有/公有屬性」 現在都正被人們所誤解

  • as something that will lead to tyranny or oppression.

    視為將導致暴政和壓迫的東西

  • We have F.A. Hayek and Ludwig von Mises,

    我們有F. A.哈耶克和米塞斯

  • and all these economic philosophers that have compounded this notion,

    而所有這些經濟哲學家加重了這種觀念

  • and that's one of the core 'religious rituals'

    這就是既有政治結構的

  • of the political establishment to reinforce this idea that freedom

    核心「宗教儀式」之一 用來加強

  • and democracy is equated to money.

    金錢等於自由和民主此想法

  • This has justified the vast majority of wars;

    這點合理化了絕大多數戰爭

  • it justified the disregard for the growing homeless

    也合理化了美國中不斷增長的

  • and poverty population in America, and across the world.

    對街友和貧困人口的漠視 全世界亦如是

  • It has also brainwashed people to disregard humanity on a global scale.

    這也洗腦了全球人類去漠視他人

  • We have 1 - 3 billion people either starving to death or in abject poverty,

    全球有10到30億人只能餓死或處於絕對淒慘的貧困

  • and we don't care about them because our psychology now is so perverted

    但我們不關心他們 因為我們現在的心理是如此變態

  • that we can just dismiss them as some anomaly

    以致於我們可以就是將他們視為異端而拒斥

  • in this social-darwinistic view that we've concocted for ourselves,

    我們為自己拼湊這種社會達爾文主義觀點

  • which unfortunately goes back to Adam Smith.

    這點不幸地追溯到亞當·史密斯

  • - Absolutely, it does seem we are indoctrinated

    -當然 它似乎確實正在灌輸我們

  • with this line of thinking. Anything alternative to that is bad,

    這種思路觀念 即任何替代方案是壞的

  • as we've learned through pretty much every institution

    正如我們已差不多了解了 我在此國家中

  • that I've experienced growing up in this country, and I'm sure around the world.

    成長時經歷到的每一個機構 我很肯定世界各地亦然

  • Why is it that people adhere so strongly

    鑑於21世紀的科技發展

  • to these archaic, political and religious institutions

    豐富可得的知識有助於

  • in the light of the 21st century advancements in technology,

    拓展人類的集體意識

  • the vast knowledge available to expand humanity's collective consciousness?

    但人們為何如此強烈堅持這些過時的想法 政治和宗教機構?

  • It seems that we constantly regress back to what we're comfortable with

    看來 我們不斷倒退回到我們的舒適圈

  • even though they've been proven, historically, to have monumental failures.

    即使已經證明 歷史上它們有巨大的失敗

  • - Yes. I call it a move from superstition to science.

    -是的 我把它稱作由迷信到科學的過程

  • If you look at the social structure,

    如果你看一下社會結構 真的

  • it really goes back so far,

    迷信由來以久

  • and it discludes so many modern advancements

    [排除]了這麼多現代的進展

  • that people's traditional values are so caught up

    因此人們的傳統價值觀陷入困局

  • in the voting process, in the delegation of authority,

    只能在投票過程中選出代表

  • and in the general subservience patterns of the peasants,

    顯現在大眾普遍的從屬模式中

  • which is what the majority of humanity unfortunately is.

    不幸的是 這正是大多數人的現狀

  • They accept it because it's what they've always known and seen.

    他們會接受是因為 那一直是他們所知與所見之物

  • Naturally, people fear change (it's no psychological anomaly),

    當然 人們害怕改變(這很正常)

  • but I think the big issue here is education.

    但我認為 這裡最大的問題是教育

  • People need to understand what's possible and the root causes

    人們需要了解 在未來什麼是可能的

  • of all the problems out there. They don't understand

    及現有問題的根源就在那裡 但他們不明白

  • the prosperity-driven effects that can come from science and technology,

    由豐盛驅動的效果能來自科學及科技

  • and not just from the gadgets, etc. , but if we actually applied

    不只一些小工具的效用 但如果我們確實應用這些

  • these basic, near empirical principles to social governance,

    基本的 以接近實證的原則來管理社會

  • we would end up with a completely new social order.

    則我們最終會得到一個全新的社會秩序

  • You can call it Natural Law, Resource-Based Economy,

    你可以稱之為:「自然法則/資源導向型經濟

  • basically taking this construct of what works.

    基本上採取有用的事物來建構社會

  • Like an airplane that flies, we build society like an airplane,

    像是造一架能飛的飛機 我們建立社會就像造飛機

  • as an engineered type of concept. There's really no other way.

    用一種工程計畫的概念 真的沒有其它有效辦法

  • We live in anarchy system; that's the best way to describe it.

    我們目前生活在無政府狀態的制度 這是形容它的最好方式

  • We live in a system where each individual is given this bizarre power

    我們生活在一種體系裡 其中每個個體都有奇特的能力

  • to make their own decisions under the assumption that in concert

    做出決定 並假設整個社會將和諧地

  • the whole of society is going to work out for itself.

    找出自己的出路

  • It's provably false, that's why you have

    這點可能是錯誤的 這就是為何

  • 1% of the population owning 40% of the planet's wealth,

    1%的人擁有此星球40%的財富

  • because the value system disorder, the psychology generated by this system

    因為價值觀的紊亂 而由此系統產生的心態

  • completely disallows any type of balance to occur

    完全禁止任何類型的社會結構平衡

  • in a structural sense. Sustainability and public health

    因此 永續性和公眾健康

  • are thrown out the window in this model.

    這些問題在此模型裡 都拋到了九霄雲外

  • Not only because of the values you denote and people's fear,

    這不僅是因為你呈現的價值觀和人們的恐懼

  • but because the system itself keeps compounding

    也因為舊有的社會體系 一而再 再而三地

  • the same old, archaic values and fears over and over again.

    不斷加劇陳舊過時的價值觀和恐懼

  • That is the central problem and why The Zeitgeist Movement does everything it can

    這就是問題的重點 及時代精神運動就教育意義而言

  • in an educational sense, why I make the films that I do,

    為何要盡一切所能 及我為何製作電影和媒體的原因

  • to really try to drill this home, and to inspire others out there

    以真正試圖讓人們去了解 同時也希望激勵在外面的人們

  • to begin the same drive. I could talk about a larger project

    發起相同的行動 如果你想聽

  • that the movement's working on if you'd like to hear about it. - Absolutely.

    我可以討論此運動正在從事的更大計畫 -當然可以

  • Let's get into that in one second, I just wanted to say, it does seem like it's the fear

    讓我們來快速看看 我只想說 似乎就是恐懼

  • that really drives us; the fear to not...

    在驅動著我們 恐懼不能...

  • I guess these archaic institutions keep us stifled,

    (我想這些古老的體制讓我們窒息)

  • the fear of control of our own lives, I guess,

    恐懼失去對自己生活的控制 大概吧

  • when we really do have so much power, Peter,

    當我們確實擁有這麼大的力量時 彼得

  • but let's talk about The Zeitgeist Movement. You really advocate action;

    但現在讓我們來談談時代精神運動 你是真的發起行動

  • really, it's a revolution of the mind, of ideas.

    真的 這是一種心靈及思想的革命

  • How do we stop this global empire from crushing us and the planet,

    我們如何阻止這全球帝國粉碎我們和這個星球?

  • which is pretty much the course that we are currently on;

    而目前我們差不多就在這樣的過程中...

  • what is The Zeitgeist Movement advocating and how can people get involved?

    時代精神運動倡導的是什麼? 人們又該如何參與?

  • - Yes, I agree with you. It's a revolution of values, that's the real revolution.

    -是的 我同意你的看法:這是價值觀的革命 這才是真正的革命

  • As far as what people can do,

    至於大家可以做什麼...

  • The Zeitgeist Movement attempts to take the lowest grassroots level possible.

    時代精神運動試圖儘可能採取最基層的方式來運作

  • We want to get important, very technically-viable

    我們希望用技術上非常可行的方式(而非不確定)

  • and non-speculative information out for people to digest.

    將這些重要訊息傳播給人們來消化

  • With other programs that we do, we have our numerous event days for awareness;

    加上我們從事的其它計劃 我們有眾多活動日來提升大眾意識

  • in March, we'll have our Zeitgeist Day event. The global event will be

    在三月份 我們有「時代精神日」的活動 今年的全球活動

  • in Los Angeles this year, but we have about 400 sympathetic events

    將在洛杉磯舉行 而且我們在世界各地也大約有400個

  • all over the world, across usually about 70 countries on average,

    同步支持的活動 平均在約70個國家舉行

  • every time we do this, this will be the 4th year of it.

    我們每次都這樣做 這將是第4年

  • But all of those kind of intellectual exercises aside,

    但除了所有這類型的智識及洞見分享

  • there's another project that we are doing called the Global Redesign Institute.

    我們也正在進行另一項計畫 稱為「全球重新設計研究所」

  • This is a very important idea. It's a macro industrial approach

    這是一個非常重要的概念 這是一個宏觀產業式的做法

  • to show the world what's possible technically,

    讓世界見識到科技的可能性

  • and in effect alleviate all the confusions they have

    並實際上緩解人們所有相關的困惑

  • about what a designed, planned system could be

    即一種經過設計及規劃的系統可能為何

  • and the type of freedom that really could emerge,

    及可能最終真的會浮現的自由類型

  • as opposed to the propaganda of the establishment that says

    而不是既有建制機構所宣傳的東西

  • that that would lead to tyranny.

    它們將導致專制暴政諸如此類的惡果

  • The benefit of such [a system] is so vast.

    此種[系統]的益處將如此之大

  • For example, in this project, we'll take different regions and we'll show

    例如在此計畫中 我們將劃分不同的區域

  • the technical layout of how we could, say in Los Angeles,

    並展示如何能在技術上表現出來 例如在洛杉磯

  • have vertical farms of hydroponics and aeroponics

    會有水耕及氣耕的垂直農場

  • run through desalinization processes

    透過海水淡化

  • and nutrient extraction processes from the ocean,

    及從海洋中萃取養份的過程來運作

  • so we would be able to feed organic food to everyone,

    因此 經由這些方法與自動化系統

  • satisfy the entire population of the city of Los Angeles,

    我們能將有機食品餵養給大家

  • through these methods, through automated systems.

    足以養活洛杉磯的全部人口

  • This technology exists, it's been largely dismissed as utopian

    這種技術早已存在 人們卻在很大程度上斥之為「烏托邦」

  • as that word loves to fly around when you start to talk about

    (因為當你開始討論要照顧到每個人時

  • taking care of everybody, but this stuff is there.

    這個詞便充斥各處) 但這些東西確實存在

  • We're going to map out the entire world

    經過時間的洗禮

  • through time, through the chapters of The Zeitgeist Movement,

    及時代精神運動各分部 我們會繪製出整個世界的樣貌

  • to show how every region can be updated in this macro industrial way

    並展示每個區域 如何能以此種宏觀產業的方式去更新

  • to actually resolve the core major problems of poverty,

    以真正解決核心且重大的貧窮問題

  • of general dissemblance, of resource scarcity,

    (這起源於常態的失衡及資源匱乏)

  • and bring these technological fruits to light.

    並把這些科技成果展現出來

  • I'll stop there because it can go in much larger,

    我就停在這裡 因為當我們建立此模式時