You know for a great many people it's become a system that is

你知道的 對於許多人來說 它已經變成某種程度上

in part, broken, in part a result of the 2008 financial collapse.

失靈的系統 某種程度上來說是2008年金融危機的後果

.

.

So how do we climb out and get to a place of progress?

所以我們如何爬出泥沼並取得一絲進展?

Well, you know, big problems need big ideas

嗯 你知道的 大問題需要大想法

and here's one. Start with this: money

而這就是一個 從這開始:金錢

and throw it away. It sounds crazy, right?

然後 丟掉它 聽起來瘋狂 對吧?

Well, now we're going to talk to someone who thinks this might be

嗯 現在我們將與一個人對談 他認為這可能

.

.

exactly what we need. Peter Joseph is a film maker

真的是我們所需要的 彼德·約瑟夫是一位影片製作者

and also the founder of The Zeitgeist Movement.

而且也是時代精神運動的創建人

Hey there Peter, I'm of course simplifying here.

嗨 彼德 我在這裡當然是簡化了

It's not just get rid of money or currency. It's instead making

這不只是擺脫金錢或貨幣 反而是讓

this monetary-based economy... you make it

目前這個以金融貨幣為基礎的經濟(消亡)

a resource-based economy. Talk about what this actually means.

你創造了一個資源導向型經濟 談談這到底意味著什麼

- Well actually, you're half right. A Resource-Based Economy explicitly

事實上 你對了一半 資源導向型經濟明確地

does want to remove the actual mechanics of exchange

確實想要移除掉實際上的交換機制

and the market system itself, as radical as that may seem to most.

以及市場經濟體系本身 如同這件事可能看似激進到了極點

You have to understand, first of all, that the problem we're seeing

你必須瞭解 首先我們在世界上

in the world is not the result of some bad policy

看到的所有問題 不是由於一些糟糕的政策

some legislation or some inflationary cycle boom and bust

或立法 或通貨膨脹循環的繁榮與蕭條現象

phenomenon that we're typically taught in traditional economics.

這些我們在傳統經濟學中被教導的典型觀念

The very foundation of the economic structure is intrinsically flawed.

目前經濟結構最根本的內在基礎 是有缺陷的

We create money out of debt. We charge interest on it

我們從債務中創造出金錢 我們在本金之上收取

which doesn't exist. We create the principal, but yet

不存在的利息 我們創造了本金

the principal plus the interest is always outstanding.

但本金加上利息總會變成是未償清的

People, it's a game of musical chairs to put into a singular phrase.

人們 簡單一句話 這就是一場大風吹的遊戲

Everyone systematically suffers through this system and its offset.

每個人系統性地嘗受到 這個體系和它脫軌後的苦果

So when you hear about debt collapse, sovereign debt defaults

所以當我們聽到關於債務崩潰 主權債務違約等等

these are inevitabilities of the system. They're not based on

這些都是這個體系不可避免的後果

just someone's rogue policy

它們不只是基於某人的糟糕政策

or some flagrant activity of the stock market and derivatives

或一些駭人聽聞的股市和衍生性金融商品的活動

granted those are very important attributes of it.

雖然那些活動保證是此體系非常重要的屬性

But my point and my work with the movement is that the system

但我和這個運動投入的論點是

is intrinsically, inherently flawed.

這個體系本質上 內在上的缺陷

And for us to get on a scale, on a pace, on a...

不能使我們去以一種大規模 按步驟的方式

in a way to make our society sustainable and not suffer

讓我們的社會永續發展 且不必受到所有這些

all these economic consequences, we have to get down to the life-ground

經濟的苦果 我們必須向下探觸到生命的基礎

.

.

and what actually supports human life, what we've learned

及支持人類生命的到底是什麼 我們能從自然世界中

from the natural world, the systems that actually generate food.

學到什麼 即這個實際產出食物的體系

When you realize this, we live in a technical reality

當你理解我們生活在一個技術性的現實

not a monetary one.

而不是金融貨幣的那種

For example, one child dies every five seconds

例如每五秒鐘一位孩童 就死於

from poverty and preventable diseases on this planet.

這個星球上的窮困和可以預防的疾病

This is, of course, unnecessary technically.

這在技術上當然是不必要的

We could easily feed everyone on this planet.

我們可以輕易餵飽地球上每個人

And when you extrapolate that train of thought, when you take

而當你從這種思維推斷延伸時

a technical perspective as opposed to a monetary perspective

當你採取一種與金融貨幣觀點相反的技術性觀點時

we see we could resolve just about all the major human woes

那麼就可以看到 我們就能解決 這顆星球上

.

.

on this planet by restructuring the entire economic phenomenon

所有主要的人類苦難 藉由重建整個經濟現象

to be truly economic, meaning preservation, sustainability.

使其變為真正有經濟效益的 意味著保存和永續性

- You were talking earlier and you said:

彼德 你之前說道:

"Everyone suffers by the system." I think that maybe...

"每個人都受此體系之苦" 我認為或許

let's clarify a little bit. A lot of people suffer

讓我們說得更清楚些 許多人受苦

but there are some people who want to keep this system

但某些人 想要完全保持這個體系

exactly how it is. Isn't that right?

目前的方式 不對嗎?

- Yeah, I'd say the upper 1% [...] certainly has a prime interest

沒錯 我會說最頂端的1%人口 當然有主要的興趣

.

.

has a very easy way to justify the fruits that they've claimed.

和用明顯的方式為他們所獲得的果實而辯護

We have 1% of the world's population owning 40% of the planet's wealth.

我們有1%的世界人口 掌握著這顆星球上40%的財富

If that isn't a signpost to the intrinsic flaw of this system

如果這點顯示不出這個體系內在的缺陷

that it's there to perpetuate one class

即永遠有一種階級優於另一種

over another, I'm not sure what is.

那我就不清楚到底是哪一點了

So yes, the upper 1% has a very vested interest and naturally

所以是的 最頂端的1%確實有既得利益

that carries on to the governments which are essentially

並自然運用到政府上 而政府實際上

funded and supported by the corporate institutions.

是由財團機構所資助和支持的

- And I know... - ...that continue this.

我知道 這些機構延續這種作法

- You've written about this large gap between the rich and poor

你寫了關於貧富之間的巨大差距這點

and I know one point that you've made in your writings is that

而我知道你在文章中下的一個論點是

America is one of the most socially immobile countries in the world.

美國是全世界中 社會階層最固定的國家之一

I kind of had to stop and read that again when I saw that

當我發現這點時 我必須稍微停下來並再重讀一次

but basically what you're saying, I think, is:

但基本上我認為 你是在說:

If you're born poor, chances are you will stay poor

"如果你生下來是窮困的 你以後將很可能仍然窮困"

other than of course a few exceptions.

當然除了少數的例外

How does this change under the "Zeitgeist system"?

這在"時代精神體系"下會如何改變?

- Well, it's not the "Zeitgeist system." This work builds upon

嗯 這不是"時代精神體系" 這些工作基於

research by a man named Jacque Fresco

雅克·法斯科的研究

which builds upon researchers from the past 150 years

也基於過去150年以來研究者們的成果

people that have continually thought about a different economic model

他們一直持續思考著 一個不同經濟模式

not based on monetary exchange

不是基於金融貨幣的交換

and all of the intrinsic problems that come out of that.

以及它本質上所帶來的全部問題

The Venus Project is something important to mention which I suggest

重要一提的東西叫作金星計劃 我建議

people look into that has a partnership with The Zeitgeist Movement

人們去檢視它 它與時代精神運動有夥伴關係

.

.

and it's a blueprint system based on referencing natural law.

而且它是一個藍圖的系統 基於可指涉參照的自然法則

What that means is you actually get to the life-ground

這意味著 你實際上觸及到我之前提過的

as I mentioned earlier. You look at what it means to make

生命的基礎 你關注成為一個人類意味著什麼

a human being, what it means to meet the needs of human necessity

及滿足人類必需的需求又是什麼意思

from obviously the bare necessities to all of the emotional

從顯而易見的生活必需品 到實際上

and biopsychosocial phenomenon

引起我們行為

.

.

that actually generate our behaviour, well-being, and mental health.

情緒和生物心理上的現象 產生我們的福祉和心理健康

When you put all this together which is a completely technical orientation

當你把這些全拼湊在一起時 是一種完全技術性的定位

.

.

very limited when it comes to human opinion

而當談到人類意見時我們是非常有限的

this is what science has given us, by the way.

順帶一提 這就是科學賦予我們的優勢

You see that the current economic model is stuck in time.

你看到目前的經濟模式停滯不前

It's not actually representing what meets human needs

它實際上並不代表符合人類需求的東西

and the more you step back and look at how we could technically provide

而且當你向後退越多步並看看在技術上

for the human population, eliminate war, eliminate famine

我們如何能為人類人口提供需要 消除戰爭 饑荒

eliminate poverty, eliminate 95% of most crime

窮困 順帶一提 95%的大多數犯罪

which by the way is monetary related

都是與金融貨幣相關

you begin to see that an entirely new approach can be taken.

那麼你就開始看到可以採取一種全新的方式

It's very difficult for me to describe that to you

在非常短的小片段中去描述

in a very short little segment, but a Resource-Based Economy

對我來說是十分困難的 但資源導向型經濟

is based upon resource management intrinsically.

本質上是基於資源的管理

Monetary relationships don't manage anything.

金融貨幣的關係不管理任何東西

We have cost efficiency. We have all of these things

我們有成本效益 我們有所有這些東西

that inhibit our ability to create sustainable goods.

去禁止我們創造永續物品的能力

We have established institutions that are constantly trying

我們有既建的機構持續地 試圖去

to preserve their market share. It's essentially a mafia orientation.

維護它們的市場份額 這實際上是一種黑手黨式的方法

It's one group against another, everyone's battling,

這是一個群體對抗另一個 每個人互相鬥爭

and we have this illusion that somehow it's for the betterment of us

而我們不知為何幻想 這可以改善我們

.

.

that we have this self-interest and it isn't.

我們有自私而金融貨幣沒有

It's provably not if you look through history

這點是錯的 如果你看看歷史

and what we're actually doing to ourselves, and we're on a train-wreck

和我們實際上對自己正在做的事 而我們在通往

to a complete environmental disaster and a social disaster.

徹底的環境和社會災難的失事列車上

- Peter, I want to interrupt you real quick.

彼德 我真的想快速打斷你一下

I can just hear the bad election commercials in my head.

我腦中只能聽到壞的選舉廣告之類

You know if this movement gains momentum

你知道 如果這個運動得到動力

the people who this system does benefit are going to come back

在目前體系中的既得利益者將會反撲

and this is what they're going to say:

然後他們會說:

"He wants to bring us back to

"他想把我們帶回...

...he wants to make us a communist society."

他想讓我們成為一個共產主義社會"

What do you say to that?

你對此如何回應呢?

- That's all they know, that's their entire frame of reference.

那就是他們所知的 那就是他們整個指涉框架

You see, the propaganda of the West and the Free Market

你看到西方和自由市場的宣傳

or the Free-for-All-Market, as I call it

或我稱之為所有人都自由的市場

is to constantly assume back, orient back to these old structures

持續地向後假設 往後定位至這些我們

that were based on autocratic dictatorship

基於其之上的舊架構 專制的獨裁

with no real communist attribute to it all. A true communist idea

而絲毫沒有真正的共產主義者屬性 真正的共產主義

is a family, something I think we can all relate to.

概念是一個家庭 我想所有人都能聯想到

We are about intelligent resource management

我們是關於資源的智慧管理

learning about how to take care of ourselves technically

學習在技術上如何照顧好我們自身

and creating a ground-up system that does that.

並從基礎上創造出也是如此的體系

And the only way you can do that is by the elimination of this...

你唯一所能做的方式 是藉由消除這種

this supposed self-interest intrinsic attribute

假定的自私 即我們認為

of our system that we think is natural.

這種體系自然的內在屬性

Obviously we all have self-interest, but

顯然我們都有自私

self-interest must become social-interest

但是 自私必須變為社會利益

if we expect to survive as a species, very simply.

如果我們期望作為一個物種生存下去

- I think one of the questions people would have is

我想其中一個人們會有的問題是

under this system, what's the incentive?

在這個體系下 動機誘因是什麼?

What's the incentive to contribute more, to try harder

動機誘因會是去貢獻更多 更努力地嘗試

if in the end, we're all gonna be equals?

如果最終我們都將會是平等的?

- Well, first of all, no one is just equal in an arbitrary sense.

嗯 首先沒有人在武斷的層面上就是平等的

That's a loaded kind of concept.

那是一種充滿預設的觀念

[We're] equal in the ability to get the necessities of life

我們有能得到生活必需品的平等

to get out of the materialism that we have, that fuels

脫離我們擁有的物質主義 物質主義

this conspicuous consumption that's destroying the planet.

明顯刺激著消耗 而這正在摧毀著整個星球

These values will change, so the incentive will be people

這些價值觀將會改變 所以動機誘因將會是

actually understanding that when they contribute to society

人們真正理解到 當他們貢獻於社會時

or do something real, not work in advertising or the stock market

當他們做實際的事情 而不是為廣告或股票市場工作時

.

.

when they do something, and they're educated to actually contribute

當他們做的事 與所受教育真的能

to society, it's for their own self-betterment themselves.

貢獻於社會時 這才是真的改善他們本身

So if I was an inventor, I would invent something

所以如果我是一個發明家 我會去發明東西

not to make money off of it. That's a very sick, distorted idea.

而不是靠它去賺錢 因為那是個非常病態 扭曲的想法

I would invent something to better the world, knowing that

我將發明可以改善世界的東西 並瞭解

that would come back to me in my own betterment.

這將會回歸到我自身的改善之中

So it's a completely different value structure, and the best thing

所以它是一個完全不同的價值結構 而我最能

I can relate to you is the idea of a family.

讓你聯想到的概念是一個家庭

The idea of what it means to live in a family

即生活在一個家庭中的意義是什麼

and the respect that's mutual in a family, where you are not tipping

以及家庭中的互相尊敬 每次當你母親

your mother every time she brings you something at the table.

帶東西給你放在桌上時 你不會向她支付小費

It's an entirely new value system orientation, and unfortunately

這是一個全新的價值體系定位 而不幸的是

we have to undo the tremendous psychological

我們必須解除這個巨大的心理扭曲

distortion that has been created after, more or less

這種心理扭曲誕生之後 或多或少

centuries of this despotic system that is failing right in front of us

導致數世紀以來的暴虐體系 正在我們的面前墮落

and will lead to simply more war, more poverty.

並僅僅導致更多的戰爭和窮困

So I don't really have to defend it, but the fact that

所以我真的不需要去辯護 但事實是

all you have to do is watch what's happening right now

你需要去做的就是看著現在正在發生什麼

and what's going to continue to happen, if you follow the trends.

以及將會繼續發生什麼 如果你照著趨勢走的話

And just real quick if you do look around at what's happening

而且只要快速向周圍看看現正發生什麼事

especially right now, this is not a... I know your idea

特別是現在 這不是個... 我瞭解你的想法

and your Movement has followers all around the world

和運動有全世界各地的追隨者

more than 200 countries have chapters.

超過200個國家有分部

Talk about why this is not just a national idea

說說看為何這不只是一種國家的概念

but kind of an international one.

而是一種國際性的想法

- Absolutely, well, sovereignty is essentially a mirror

嗯 當然主權 實際上是一種

of a corporate concept. It's a self-preserving idea.

財團企業式概念的反映 它是一種自我維護的想法

.

.

The world is gonna have to learn to work together.

世界將必須學習一起努力

I'm sorry to say to all the politicians out there:

我很抱歉的說 但是檯面上所有的政治家像是

jingoistic, patriotic. In the words of Albert Einstein:

侵略主義 愛國主義者 以艾爾伯特·愛因斯坦的話來說:

"Patriotism is a disease". It's one world.

"愛國主義是一種疾病" 這是一個世界

It's a single round planet, and it's time we recognize it as such.

是個單一的圓形星球 而現在是我們應該認知到這點的時侯了

We have to manage the world in this way too, so there's a

我們也必須以這種方式管理世界 所以那是一個

firm technical reality, it's not just philosophical.

堅定的技術性現實 而不只是哲學性

So the Zeitgeist Movement is about bridging the difference between

所以時代精神運動 是在關於所有種族的歧異

all races, all nationalities, all religions

所有的國家 宗教 任何分割

everything that divides us

我們的事物之間架起橋樑

because we all have to come back to the basic necessities of life

因為我們都必須回到 基本的生命必需品

and we can't even get that right within a monetary system.

但我們甚至不能在一個金融貨幣體系內做好

The suffering is unacceptable and not necessary.

這些苦難是不可接受的 並且不必要的

So it's not... It's a global movement, firmly global.

所以是時侯堅定地向一個全球性運動邁進了

- Unfortunately, we're out of time Peter but certainly a big idea

很遺憾 彼德 我們的時間用完了 但真的在

in this time that is filled with some really big problems.

充滿一些大問題的時間點上 這無疑是一個大想法

Peter Joseph filmmaker and also founder of The Zeitgeist Movement.

彼德·約瑟夫 時代精神運動的製片者以及創建人