Name: 解密歷史懸案：從金字塔到失落的原子彈 | Sam Kean 完整專訪 (Decoding history’s mysteries: From the pyramids to the hidden atomic bomb | Sam Kean: Full Interview)
Uploaded: 2026-03-06T18:22:49.000Z
Duration: 53 min 4 s

I am the author of several books and my latest book is Dinner with King How Rogue Archaeologists Are Recreating the Sights, Sounds, Smells and Tastes of Lost Civilizations.

我寫了好幾本書，最新的一本叫做《Dinner with King How Rogue Archaeologists Are Recreating the Sights, Sounds, Smells and Tastes of Lost Civilizations》。

分詞構句

Part one, Bringing Ancient History to Life.

第一部分，讓古代歷史活起來。

Chapter One, Resurrecting Ancient Practices.

If you're thinking of Indiana Jones, traditional archaeology is not that.

如果你想到的是 Indiana Jones，那傳統考古學就不是那樣的。

It's things buried in the ground that you have to dig up, put in context and try to piece together the past.

傳統考古學是把埋在地底下的東西挖出來，放到脈絡裡，然後試著拼湊出過去。

Brushing off little pot shards and bits of bone with toothbrushes, day after day, hour after hour.

一天又一天，一小時又一小時，用牙刷輕輕刷掉小塊的陶片和骨頭碎片。

Traditional archeology is very good about what the past looked like.

傳統考古學對於過去長什麼樣子，做得非常棒。

So they can tell you there was a wall here, there was a building over here.

所以他們可以告訴你這裡有道牆，那裡有棟建築。

You get a good general sense of the landscape and, and

你可以對地貌有一個很好的整體概念，還有，還有

probably the range of materials that an ancient civilization was using.

還有當時古文明可能使用的各種材料。

But what I was lacking was all of the other senses.

但我缺乏的是所有其他的感官。

So you can imagine how excited I was when I discovered experimental archaeology.

所以你們可以想像，當我發現實驗考古學時有多興奮。

Experimental archaeologists make and do things.

實驗考古學家會動手製作和進行各種實驗。

They try to recreate the past in all sorts of different ways, whether it be making ancient recipes and foods, stone tools, ancient medicines, building ships and heading out into the ocean.

他們試著用各種不同的方式重現過去，像是製作古老的食譜和食物、石器、古代藥物，或是建造船隻出海。

All sorts of things that involve resurrecting the past.

任何涉及讓過去復活的各種事物。

If you have deep knowledge about how to do something or how to make something, you're going to ask different, better questions about it and have a better eye about what to look for, the range of things people might have used, stuff like that.

如果你對如何做某件事或如何製作某樣東西有深入的瞭解，你就會問出不同、更好的問題，並且能更精準地知道該尋找什麼，人們可能用過的各種東西，諸如此類。

And another thing experimental archaeology can do is help us solve some of the great mysteries of the past.

而且實驗考古學還能幫我們解開過去的許多重大謎團。

How did they actually build the pyramids in Egypt?

他們究竟是如何建造埃及金字塔的？

How did they erect those giant statues on Easter Island?

他們又是如何豎立復活節島上那些巨大的雕像的？

How did we hunt ancient creatures, big pachyderms and things like that?

我們是如何狩獵古代生物，像是大型的厚皮動物等等的？

Experimental archaeology can help us get at those questions.

實驗考古學能幫助我們解答這些問題。

For this book, I attended an authentic Roman banquet and ate strange foods of all kinds, everything from caterpillars to walruses.

為了這本書，我參加了一場道地的羅馬宴會，品嚐了各種奇怪的食物，從毛毛蟲到海象都有。

I spent a day out in Utah with a guy who built a 30 foot catapult and we spent an afternoon hurling these giant stone boulders around.

我在猶他州花了一天時間，跟一位建造了三十英尺投石機的傢伙一起，下午我們花了點時間投擲巨大的石塊。

I got to give and get my very first tattoo.

我得到了我的第一個紋身，也給了別人紋身。

我還親手發射了一座中世紀加農砲。

I got to try my hand at ancient neurosurgery and all sorts of other projects.

我也嘗試了古代神經外科手術，還有各種其他計畫。

One thing I really like about experimental archaeology is the range of people that are involved in doing it.

實驗考古學讓我特別喜歡的一點是，參與其中的人各式各樣。

In some cases you have sort of hardcore lab geeks.

有些是那種非常投入的實驗室極客。

They're in a lab collecting data, just sort of like a traditional scientist would.

他們在實驗室裡收集數據，就像傳統科學家一樣。

In other cases, you have archaeologists who fell in love with some ancient civilization, and

另外一些則是對某個古代文明深深著迷的考古學家，

they wanted to connect with it on a deeper level.

And they figured there was no other way to do that except to go out and try to recreate certain aspects of the past.

他們認為，除了親自嘗試重現過去的某些面向，沒有其他方法可以做到。

You also have indigenous communities who in a lot of cases have kept these traditions alive for thousands and thousands of years.

你也會看到一些原住民社群，他們在很多情況下，幾千年來一直保留著這些傳統。

And often they are the ones actually teaching archaeologists about this material.

而且他們常常是教導考古學家這些知識的人。

So it's really a two way street with these groups where they are the ones imparting their knowledge to the scholars and academics.

所以，這些團體之間真的是雙向交流，由他們將知識傳授給學者和學術界人士。

And then you can go all the way to sort of these grouchy survivalists who live out in the woods.

然後你可能會看到一些住在森林裡的、比較孤僻的生存主義者。

But they've picked up tricks or tricks have been passed down to them and they have a lot of knowledge, some cases implicit knowledge that you just don't get from armchair archaeology.

但他們學到了一些技巧，或是這些技巧傳承給他們，他們擁有豐富的知識，有些是隱性的知識，這是在書齋考古學裡學不到的。

And in some cases they've actually rewritten what we know about archaeology because they brought to bear their own knowledge on the field and showed the experts where they were wrong.

而且在某些情況下，他們甚至改寫了我們對考古學的認知，因為他們將自己的知識帶入這個領域，並向專家們展示了他們錯在哪裡。

So imagine you're a person in Africa 75,000 years ago.

所以，想像一下你是七萬五千年前的非洲人。

You probably travel around from place to place, maybe spend a few weeks sleeping in a cave.

你可能會從一個地方旅行到另一個地方，也許會在洞穴裡睡上幾週。

But caves have hard dirt floors, not very comfortable, so you're going to have to make a bed of some sort.

但是洞穴的地板是硬的泥土，不太舒服，所以你得自己做個床。

Also your main activity is probably going to be gathering food and water.

而且你主要的活動大概就是採集食物和水源。

So you would have a canteen of some sort to carry water around, probably made from an ostrich egg.

所以你會需要一個水壺之類的容器來裝水，很可能用鴕鳥蛋做的。

And then to get ready to find food that day, you're going to have to make your own tools and go out on a hunt.

然後為了準備當天的覓食，你得自己做工具，然後出去打獵。

The first thing you would do is you would spread a bunch of debris around in the cave and you would light it on fire, it would burn.

你做的第一件事就是在洞穴裡鋪滿一堆碎屑，然後把它點燃，讓它燒起來。

also importantly, leave a nice soft layer of ash that's essentially going to be your mattress.

更重要的是，會留下一個柔軟的灰燼層，基本上就是你的床墊。

Then you're going to go out and gather some plants, aromatic leaves especially.

然後你就要出去採集一些植物，特別是芳香的葉子。

You're gonna lay those down as sort of a top sheet on that layer of ash.

你會把這些葉子鋪在那層灰燼上，當作一層頂部的床單。

So this is going to be fairly comfortable because ash, it's nice and soft, sort of like sleeping on the beach.

所以這樣會相當舒服，因為灰燼又軟又舒服，有點像睡在沙灘上。

And people have actually recreated these beds and have slept in them overnight.

而且人們真的照這樣重新製作過這些床，並且睡過一晚。

And they said that they were in fact pretty comfortable.

It also had another benefit in that the ash kept away ticks.

它還有另一個好處，就是灰燼可以驅趕蜱蟲。

Insects were a big problem for people thousands of years ago.

幾千年前，昆蟲對人們來說是個大麻煩。

They didn't have repellent, they didn't have ways of keeping them off.

他們沒有驅蟲劑，也沒有辦法把蟲子趕走。

So having a nice ash layer on the ground prevented ticks from burrowing up and locking onto your legs.

所以在地上鋪一層舒服的灰燼，可以防止蜱蟲鑽上來叮咬你的腿。

I talked to a woman who actually gathered a bunch of ticks, put them in the center of a nice ring of ash, and

我訪問了一位女士，她收集了一堆蜱蟲，放在一圈漂亮的灰燼中間，

The ticks tried to burrow through the ash.

And the ones that did make it through the ash, their mouthparts ended up so gummed that they couldn't bite anyone afterward.

而那些成功穿過灰燼的蜱蟲，牠們的口器也因為灰燼而變得黏糊糊的，之後就無法咬人。

So the ash also provided a way to prevent ticks from biting your legs.

所以灰燼也提供了一種方法，可以防止蜱蟲叮咬你的腿。

They were usually aromatic leaves that kept mosquitoes away.

這些通常是香草類的葉子，可以驅趕蚊子。

So in addition to providing comfort, this bed also kept away parasites that can annoy you and spread diseases.

所以，這張床除了提供舒適感，還能驅離那些會讓你煩惱並傳播疾病的寄生蟲。

So when you get up in the morning, you're probably thirsty.

所以，當你早上起床時，你可能會覺得口渴。

And if you're in this cave, you're going to reach for your water receptacle, which will be an ostrich egg canteen.

而如果你在這個洞穴裡，你會伸手去拿你的儲水容器，那會是一個鴕鳥蛋製成的水壺。

Ostrich eggs are usually pretty large and they're usually pretty thick and dense.

鴕鳥蛋通常都很大，而且通常很厚實緻密。

So what they would do is they would take a stone tool and they would saw the top of the ostrich egg open, usually make a little square or something like that.

所以他們會拿一個石器，把鴕鳥蛋的頂部鋸開，通常會鋸成一個小方形之類的。

They would pour the insides of the eggs out and then they would clean it out with some aromatic herbs, wash it, and

他們會把蛋的內容物倒出來，然後用一些香草清洗乾淨，洗一洗，

then you have a nice little canteen for the book.

然後你就得到一個很棒的小水壺了。

I actually bought an ostrich egg online and tried these steps myself.

我 actually 在網路上買了一個鴕鳥蛋，自己試著做了這些步驟。

I, I got to cook the ostrich egg in a big old skillet.

我，我用一個大平底鍋把鴕鳥蛋煎了。

The yolk was this amazingly rich, sort of caramelly egg flavor.

蛋黃有著驚人的濃鬱、有點焦糖味的蛋香。

The whites were less good, a little runny, kind of foamy.

蛋白就沒那麼好了，有點稀、有點保麗龍狀。

Not my favorite, but you know, they weren't horrible.

不是我最喜歡的，但你知道，也沒到難吃。

And then after I had cut open the top of the ostrich egg with the stone tool, I washed it out and used it to hold water.

然後我用石器把鴕鳥蛋的頂部切開後，我把它洗乾淨，拿來裝水。

And one really cool thing about ostrich eggs is that they're slightly porous.

鴕鳥蛋一個很酷的地方是，它們有點多孔。

Not so much that water's going to leak out of it, but

microscopically, there are tiny little pores in the ostrich egg that let water escape from it.

微觀上，鴕鳥蛋上有微小的孔隙，會讓水從裡面滲出。

Evaporation cools it, so it keeps the water colder than the ambient temperature.

蒸發會讓它降溫，所以它能讓水比周圍溫度保持得更涼。

So an ostrich egg is actually a self cooling canteen.

所以鴕鳥蛋其實是一個自製的涼水壺。

So after you get your nice drink of water, you're probably going to start on one of the main activities of the day, which is making stone tools.

所以在你喝完水之後，你可能會開始一天的主要活動之一，那就是製作石器。

For this you're probably gonna use chert or flint, a very hard rock that fractures very cleanly.

為此你可能會用到燧石，一種非常堅硬、斷裂面很光滑的岩石。

This is an example of a stone that you might try to make a tool out of.

這就是你可能會試著用來製作工具的石頭範例。

So you're gonna hold it in your lap like this.

Then you're gonna take another stone called a hammer stone, and you're gonna drop it onto this tool.

然後你會拿起另一塊叫做「錘石」的石頭，然後把它敲擊在這塊石頭上。

So imagine my fist here is the hammer stone.

所以想像一下，我的拳頭在這裡就是錘石。