Name: 藝術家如何重塑AI的未來 | 李飛飛、Holly Herndon 和 Mat Dryhurst (How Artists Are Rewriting AI’s Future | Fei-Fei Li, Holly Herndon and Mat Dryhurst)
Uploaded: 2026-02-06T06:59:46.000Z
Duration: 13 min 19 s

轉承詞

I do believe we're in a civilizational moment because AI and the surrounding technology is causing such a profound shift in the way we can live our lives, that not only it's a technological inflection point, it's going to cause an inflection point in our social structure.

我真的覺得我們正處於一個文明的關鍵時刻，因為AI和相關技術正在深刻地改變我們的生活方式，這不僅是一個技術的轉折點，也會引發我們社會結構的轉折。

As a scientist, I do feel a deep and profound sense of responsibility.

身為一個科學家，我確實感到一份深切而重大的責任。

And because I'm one of the people in our generation that brought this science into the world, my contribution in AI started with realizing the importance of data.

而且因為我是我們這一代將這門科學帶到世界的人之一，我在AI的貢獻始於體認到數據的重要性。

We're constantly producing new behaviors, new ideas, new activities.

我們不斷地產生新的行為、新的想法、新的活動。

But the more profound question is just because individuals are producing data, whether they're creators or just going about everyday life, doesn't mean we can always just take it all the time for free and without the considerations.

但更深層的問題是，即使個人在產出數據，無論他們是創作者還是隻是過著日常生活，這不代表我們總是能永遠免費地、不加考慮地取用這些數據。

There are science questions, there are art questions, and then there's also design questions.

有科學的問題，有藝術的問題，也有設計的問題。

I would say that design and art questions are more about the actual impact of AI in the world.

我會說，設計和藝術的問題，更多是關於AI在世界上實際產生的影響。

They're about imagining possible futures and trying to understand the consequences that they can have on the world.

它們是關於想像未來的可能性，並試圖理解這些可能性可能對世界產生的影響。

We started working with AI about 10 years ago.

我們大約在十年前開始接觸 AI。

My background is in computer music and when I learned about AI in the audio domain, it felt like an opportunity to create sounds that had never existed before and also new ways of performance.

我的背景是電腦音樂，當我瞭解了 audio domain 的 AI 時，感覺就像有機會創造前所未有的聲音，以及新的表演方式。

So I'm really interested in these really important historical moments that kind of open up a possibility for all kinds of artists to explore and kind of run with it and create new forms of art with.

所以我對這些非常重要的歷史時刻很感興趣，這些時刻為各種 artists 打開了探索的可能性，讓他們可以盡情發揮，創造新的 art forms。

We're working right now with the artists Holly Herndon and Matt Driehurst, who are incredible collaborators and at the forefront of art and technology.

我們目前正與 artists Holly Herndon 和 Matt Driehurst 合作，他們是藝術與科技領域的傑出合作夥伴。

The last few years of AI have been almost like 500 years of change as machine learning models have developed in scope and have been think learning and training and producing new kinds of sensory experiences and information.

過去幾年的 AI 發展，就像是 500 年的變革，因為 machine learning models 的範圍不斷擴大，它們在思考、學習、訓練並產生新的感官體驗和資訊。

And Holly and Matt are coming up with new and unorthodox ways of perturbing and disturbing those systems.

而 Holly 和 Matt 正在想出新的、非傳統的方法來擾動和影響這些系統。

We were really building things from the ground up, which required questions like what's your data set?

我們當時真的是從零開始建構，這就需要問「你的 data set 是什麼？」這類問題。

AI models are actually just us in aggregate.

AI models 其實就是我們集體的總和。

So an AI model output is both the product of everybody and nobody in particular.

所以 AI model output 既是每個人的產物，又是沒有特定某個人的產物。

Is you train a model properly, everyone's in there, and

如果你好好訓練一個 model，每個人都在裡面，

the result you get is the responsibility of nobody producing.

而你得到的結果是沒有人生產的責任。

Training data should be a deliberate act.

訓練資料應該是刻意為之的行為。

在某種程度上，這是一種新的 art 媒介。

I had always wanted to make a kind of one to one voice model and it felt like the only right answer would be to use my own voice.

我一直想製作一種一對一的 voice model，感覺唯一的正確方法就是使用我自己的聲音。

And so I sang from a series of timit scripts, which is basically a series text that cover all of the phonemes of the English language.

所以我唱了一系列的 timit scripts，這基本上是一系列的文字，涵蓋了英文的所有音素。

The computer will understand how your voice sounds.

電腦會理解你的聲音聽起來如何。

While most people would want to protect their voice, we thought it'd be more interesting to do the opposite, to actually make Holly's voice public domain and give people the tools to use it as they wanted.

雖然大多數人會想保護自己的聲音，但我們覺得做相反的事會更有趣，就是讓 Holly 的聲音成為 public domain，並提供工具讓大家隨意使用。

I trained an AI on my own voice, and now she can sing anything in multiple languages.

我用自己的聲音訓練了一個 AI，現在她可以用多種語言唱任何歌。

In constructing a different protocol for how training might take place, you're kind of pointing to a different world.

在建構一個不同的訓練協議時，你等於是在指向一個不同的世界。

In 2024, Holly and Matt created a work called Play from Memory for an online exhibition at MOMA.

2024 年，Holly 和 Matt 為 MOMA 的線上展覽創作了一件名為 Play from Memory 的作品。

They were inspired by a 1920s form of music pedagogy for children that used what they called imitation games to teach children how to play music, but

他們受到 1920 年代一種兒童音樂教學法的啟發，這種教學法使用所謂的模仿遊戲來教導孩子們如何演奏音樂，但

And what you see is a series of fantastical images of instruments, for example, that never existed, and

你看到的是一系列奇幻的樂器圖像，例如，從未存在過的樂器，以及

And these are all generated through machine learning models that Holly and Matt fine tuned, trained and constructed to be able to almost speculate about what this kind of musical pedagogy could produce.

而這一切都是透過 Holly 和 Matt 微調、訓練和建構的 machine learning models 產生的，讓它們幾乎能推測出這種音樂教學法能產生什麼。

They were fascinated by the similarities between how people thought children could be trained to play music and how we think about training machines every step of the way.

他們著迷於人們認為孩童學習演奏音樂的方式，以及我們在訓練機器時的每一步思考方式之間的相似之處。

They have confronted the challenges and issues of AI and consent, and

他們面對了 AI 和同意的挑戰與議題，

this is why they are really interested in participatory forms of music like choral music, even medieval hymns and call and response.

這也是為什麼他們對合唱音樂、中世紀聖歌和呼應等參與式音樂形式如此感興趣。

They've done a arena concerts where they have these huge crowds.

他們辦過競技場演唱會，有著龐大的觀眾群。

They ask to opt in into a kind of training set, and

it becomes a beautiful call and response.

And then Holly and Matt will use those sounds, recorded sounds, to then create new generative AI artworks.

然後 Holly 和 Matt 會利用這些錄製的聲音，來創作新的 generative AI artworks。

And in the sense that training sets usually are taken from images and sounds and pieces of information that are just out there in the Internet, Holly and Matt are curating and crafting and asking people to participate in creating their own training.

由於 training sets 通常取自網路上現有的圖像、聲音和資訊，Holly 和 Matt 則是在策劃、製作並請人們參與創造他們自己的 training。

As part of the Serpentine show, the Call that opened in 2024, we decided to create a choral singing model.

作為 Serpentine 展覽「The Call」（2024 年開幕）的一部分，我們決定創建一個合唱模型。

I think we approach AI as a kind of really sophisticated coordination technology.

我認為我們將 AI 視為一種非常複雜的協調技術。

And so that's why we look at earlier coordination technologies like choral singing or group singing practices, because it really helps us create a kind of through line thinking about the really sophisticated decisions that are made when human beings are standing together, singing and creating Music together.

這就是為什麼我們回顧像合唱或集體歌唱練習這樣的早期協調技術，因為這真的有助於我們思考當人們站在一起、一起唱歌、一起創作音樂時所做的非常複雜的決策，從而建立一種貫穿始終的思維。

If you've had that experience, you know that your contribution is important and you're playing a key role, but

如果你有過那樣的經驗，你會知道你的貢獻很重要，你扮演著關鍵角色，

that what you're creating is something that's greater than the sum of its parts.

但你所創造的東西卻比各部分加起來的總和還要偉大。

We also created a data trust where people could join the trust and kind of negotiate how their data would be used for the project.

我們還創建了一個數據信任，人們可以加入該信任，並協商他們數據如何用於該專案。

It was a really kind of like a full stack approach to training a model from the ground up, with everyone's consent.

這是一種從零開始、獲得所有人同意來訓練模型的全堆疊方法。

We would probably argue that intelligence is something that happens between us.

我們可能會認為，智慧是發生在我們之間的。

And so a frustration of ours is that, yes, when people often talk about AI and art, they think about typing some words into a model you don't own and getting a funny looking image out.

是以，我們的挫敗感在於，是的，當人們經常談論 AI 和 art 時，他們會想到將一些文字輸入到一個你不擁有的模型中，然後得到一張看起來很奇怪的圖像。

And it's like, yeah, that exists and we've all got to exist in a world where that exists.

就好像，對，那確實存在，而我們都必須活在一個存在著那樣東西的世界裡。

The actual value is an interplay between things versus a picture that you put on the wall.

真正的價值在於事物之間的互動，而不是掛在牆上的畫。

In the last couple of years, I'm just so excited by this new frontier that we're exploring in AI that I call spatial intelligence.

過去幾年，我對我們在 AI 中探索的這個新領域感到非常興奮，我稱之為空間智慧。

Spatial intelligence, to me is a continuation of my lifelong work in computer vision, which really tackles the problem of percept and visual intelligence.

空間智慧對我來說，是我畢生投入電腦視覺工作的延續，它真正解決了感知和視覺智慧的問題。

Vision is not just for the sake of passive viewing.

Vision is for doing things, for moving, to navigate the world, to manipulate things, to collaborate.

視覺是為了做事、為了移動、為了導航世界、為了操作事物、為了協作。

The first robot, the first companion robot that we acquired was the Aibo dog that was designed by Sony in 1999 and then it was released to the public a few years after.

我們第一個擁有的機器人，第一個伴侶機器人，是 Sony 在 1999 年設計的 Aibo 狗，幾年後才公開發售。

And you could pet it and it would move around, but nothing much, but

你可以撫摸牠，牠也會動來動去，但沒什麼特別的，

it was enough to be really lovely and it was enough for you to have an endearing relationship with it.

但這已經足夠讓人覺得牠很可愛，也足以讓你和牠建立一段親密的關係。

I mean, right now robots are much more sensing, much more able to sometimes detect also emotions by reading facial features and able to have whether they are embodied or they're just a voice, they're able to really have a conversation that is much more, more real.

我的意思是，現在的機器人更能感知，有時候也能透過讀取臉部特徵來偵測情緒，無論是實體的還是隻有聲音的，牠們都能進行更真實的對話。

Our voice is such a key part of our identity.

我們的聲音是我們身份認同的關鍵部分。

So when we sing or when we speak, it's a very physical, personal experience.

所以當我們唱歌或說話時，這是一種非常個人、實際的體驗。

And it translates into something that for Holly and Matt, can become almost disembodied and find a new form in the voices of others.

這轉化成了對 Holly 和 Matt 來說，幾乎可以脫離肉體，並在他人聲音中找到新形式的東西。

And that's a very beautiful transition, I would say, between the physical, embodied realm and the machine intelligences that they're using.

我認為，這是實體、具體領域與他們所使用的機器智能之間一個非常美好的轉變。

We are still at the dawn of the understanding of intelligence, both in terms of neuroscience as well as in terms of machine intelligence.

我們對智能的理解仍處於萌芽階段，無論是從神經科學還是機器智能的角度來看。

I do believe human intelligence and machine intelligence manifest in very different ways.

我確實相信人類智能和機器智能的表現方式非常不同。

We not only survive, live, work, but we emote, we feel.

我們不僅生存、生活、工作，我們還會表達情感、感受。

We have compassion, we have creativities that we don't know how to explain.

我們有同情心，有我們不知道如何解釋的創造力。

機器的價值觀是人類的價值觀。

And to think about what human centered AI is, is to think about what we want this AI do for us.

而要思考什麼是人類中心 AI，就是要思考我們希望 AI 為我們做什麼。

Artists are able ask questions and ideate scenarios that the rest of us would never have thought of.

藝術家能夠提出問題並構思出我們其他人從未想過的場景。

And in that sense, it's crucial for artists to take on technology at the highest levels, because we need those other perspectives and we need those other voices if we actually want these models to be as good as they could be.

從這個角度來看，藝術家必須在最高層級擁抱科技，因為如果我們真的希望這些 AI models 能盡善盡美，我們就需要那些不同的觀點和聲音。

You can't over engineer a potential outcome.

你無法過度設計一個潛在的結果。

You actually do have to give models the ability to, you know, develop curiosity.

你確實必須讓 AI models 能夠，你知道的，培養好奇心。

And this is why there's so much mistrust in AI because everyone's really unhappy with the way that the Internet turned out.

這也是為什麼大家對 AI 如此不信任，因為每個人都對網際網路的發展結果感到非常不滿意。

So if this is a new Internet, we want to make sure that we get it right this time.

所以，如果這是個新的網際網路，我們希望確保這次能做得對。

Everybody has to have a say in AI it cannot be a tiny group of people telling the rest of the world, this is the AI we're creating and giving you.

每個人都必須在 AI 上有發言權，不能只有一小群人告訴全世界，這就是我們正在創造並提供給你們的 AI。

That will cause a lot of unintended harms and consequences.

這會造成很多意想不到的傷害和後果。

I feel that we need to be much more aware and conscious of our moves.

我覺得我們需要對我們的行動更加警覺和有意識。

It's not only up to the artists themselves.

It's also up to the receivers of the art.

So the figure of the lonely artist that drops their art and lets the world deal with it doesn't really exist anymore.

所以，那個藝術家孤獨地放下 art，讓世界去處理的形象，已經不存在了。

We need artists really down in the trenches with us.

我們需要藝術家們和我們一起深入其中。