Name: 委內瑞拉馬查多將川普諾貝爾和平獎獎章送給他！ (Venezuela's Machado gives Trump her Nobel Peace Prize medal)
Uploaded: 2026-01-16T16:58:56.000Z
Duration: 8 min 35 s

I presented the President of the United States the medal of the Nobel Peace Prize, and

我將諾貝爾和平獎的獎章頒給了美國總統，

200 years ago, General Lafayette gave Simon Bolivar a medal with George Washington face.

兩百年前，拉法葉將軍送給西蒙·玻利瓦爾一枚有華盛頓頭像的獎章。

Benito Bolivar, since then, kept that medal for the rest of his life.

西蒙·玻利瓦爾從此之後，終生珍藏著這枚獎章。

We don't know yet what the President's reaction was to that gift.

我們還不知道總統對這份禮物的反應如何。

我們確實知道他自己想要這個獎項。

We should note the Nobel Committee has made clear the Peace Prize cannot be shared or transferred after it is awarded by the Nobel Committee.

我們應該注意到，諾貝爾委員會已經明確表示，和平獎在頒發後不得分享或轉讓。

The meeting comes as the White House says Trump stands by his assertion that Machado does not have the support necessary to lead Venezuela.

這次會面之際，白宮表示川普仍堅持他的說法，認為馬杜羅沒有領導委內瑞拉所需的支援。

Just yesterday, the President called Venezuela's acting president, Delsey Rodriguez, of course, Nicolas Maduro's former vice president, a terrific person.

就在昨天，總統稱委內瑞拉的代理總統德爾西·羅德里格斯，也就是尼古拉斯·馬杜羅的前副總統，是個很棒的人。

Following a phone call, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt says the current Venezuelan government has been extremely cooperative.

白宮新聞祕書卡羅琳·萊維特表示，在一次電話聯繫後，委內瑞拉現任政府一直非常配合。

Secretary Rubio and the administration have been in constant communication with Ms.

魯比歐參議員和政府一直與羅德里格斯女士

Rodriguez and other members of the interim government in Venezuela.

以及委內瑞拉臨時政府的其他成員保持著密切聯繫。

They have thus far met all of the demands and requests of the United States and of the president.

到目前為止，他們已經滿足了美國和總統的所有要求和請求。

In Caracas, Delsey Rodriguez delivered her State of the Union, State of the Nation address.

在加拉加斯，德爾西·羅德里格斯發表了她的國情報告。

She urged her country to wage a diplomatic battle with the U.S.

她敦促她的國家與美國展開一場外交戰。

saying, quote, if I ever have to go to Washington as acting president, I will do so standing tall, walking, and

她說，引述，如果我必須以代理總統的身份前往華盛頓，我會昂首挺胸地去，

Kristen Holmes is live at the White House.

克里斯汀·霍姆斯正在白宮現場報導。

Kristen, is it clear to you what the next steps are for Venezuela?

克里斯汀，妳清楚委內瑞拉接下來的步驟是什麼嗎？

If Trump is still saying Machado doesn't have the support and that he likes Delsey Rodriguez, seems like they're happy with the status quo for now.

如果川普還在說馬杜羅沒有得到支持，而且他喜歡德爾西·羅德里格斯，看來他們目前對現狀很滿意。

嗯，就目前來說，確實是這樣。

I mean, we know one of the things that President Trump and the administration was trying to focus on was stability in the administration in Venezuela.

我的意思是，我們知道川普總統和政府試圖關注的其中一件事，就是在委內瑞拉政府的穩定。

That's part of the reason that they kind of turned their focus to Rodriguez after the capture, actually

這也是他們在馬杜羅被捕後，實際上在馬杜羅被捕之前，就轉向關注羅德里格斯的原因之一，

before the capture of Maduro, for this idea that, one, they could have her in place and then put the screws to her.

因為他們認為，一來可以讓她就位，然後再對她施壓。

We know that they've kept the armada that is in the Caribbean with essentially weapons pointed at Venezuela just off the coast.

我們知道他們讓停在加勒比海的艦隊，實際上是武器對準委內瑞拉，就在海岸外。

We know that we've kept sanctions, or at least some of them, in place.

我們知道我們維持了制裁，至少是其中一部分。

These are all forms of negotiating tactics to put the screws to Rodriguez, to get her to do what the United States wants.

這些都是談判策略，用來對羅德里格斯施壓，讓她做美國想讓她做的事。

Now, you heard Caroline Levitt in the briefing today.

現在，妳今天聽了白宮新聞祕書卡羅琳·萊維特的簡報。

She would not give any sort of a timeline on elections or a shift to democracy in Venezuela.

她沒有給出任何關於委內瑞拉選舉或轉向民主的時程。

So it's really unclear what this looks like in terms of steps.

所以這一步驟到底會是什麼樣子，真的還不清楚。

All we really know right now is this step or phase one, which is this kind of stability period where you see President Trump, the United States trying to rebuild the oil infrastructure and continue to use basically the same regime.

我們現在只知道這是第一步或第一階段，也就是這種穩定時期，川普總統和美國正試圖重建石油基礎設施，並繼續沿用基本上相同的政權。

Maduro is gone, but Rodriguez is essentially a part of Maduro.

馬杜羅走了，但羅德里格斯基本上就是馬杜羅的一部分。

She was his vice president, but to put an enormous amount of pressure on.

她曾是他的副總統，但現在承受著巨大的壓力。

And Rodriguez seems to be playing ball with the White House in a way that Maduro was not willing to.

而羅德里格斯似乎正以馬杜羅不願採取的態度與白宮合作。

So right now it does seem as though they are happy with the status quo.

所以目前看來，他們似乎對現狀感到滿意。

It's quite a change given most of the government remains from the Maduro regime.

這是一個很大的轉變，因為政府大部分人仍是馬杜羅政權的成員。

克里斯汀·霍姆斯，非常感謝。

Richard Haass is President emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations.

理查·哈斯是外交關係委員會的榮譽主席。

He's also the author of the Substack newsletter Home and Away.

他也是「Home and Away」電子報的作者。

所以，我必須先問你這個問題。

Given your long history in diplomacy, is there any precedent or anything close to a winner of a prize, a Nobel Prize or similar, feeling pressure to give it to the US President to Curry favorite I think that's a rhetorical question, Jim.

鑑於您在外交領域的長久經驗，是否有任何先例，或是類似諾貝爾獎得主，會感受到壓力，必須將獎項頒給美國總統以討好他？我想這是一個反問句，吉姆。

It was quite a gesture on her part and I think it's her attempt to bring the president over.

這對她來說是一個很大的姿態，我認為這是她試圖拉攏總統。

Given the conversation you just had to where he sees a meaningful role for the political opposition in Venezuela.

考慮到您剛才的談話，他認為政治反對派在委內瑞拉扮演著重要的角色。

Is it clear to you that he sees a meaningful role?

對你來說，他認為政治反對派扮演著重要的角色，這是否很清楚？

Because listening to Caroline Levitt today from the White House podium, she repeated that Trump doesn't quite believe Machado has the support.

因為今天聽白宮講臺上的卡羅琳·萊維特說，她重複說川普不太相信馬杜羅有支持。

他說他喜歡德爾西·羅德里格斯。

They seem to be prioritizing stability of oil supplies getting out of there and there's no timeline for elections.

他們似乎優先考慮石油供應的穩定，而且沒有選舉的時間表。

Is I mean, is the status quo going to stick around for a while?

也就是說，現狀會維持一段時間嗎？

This administration, when you think about it, is not about promoting democracy.

這個政府，仔細想想，並不是在推廣民主。

I also think they have a legitimate concern that if they try to interject Mrs.

我也認為他們有一個合理的擔憂，如果他們試圖介入羅德里格斯女士

Machado and basically say she has to be the next leader or you need to have elections right away that could trigger civil conflict.

馬查多，並說她必須成為下一任領導人，否則你們必須立即舉行選舉，這可能會引發內戰。

You have a lot of guns and a lot of small groups running around.

你們有很多槍枝，還有很多小團體到處活動。

And my guess is they'd see her as a threat.

So I think the real question to me is whether the president opens up a middle ground between the status quo working with essentially the old regime minus Maduro and something that would try to usher in democracy quickly and whether he's willing to open up some type of a gradual process and we'll See, you've written in your recent piece that the US doesn't just lack the means to run Venezuela, as the President claims to be doing right now, but

所以我認為對我來說，真正值得思考的問題是，總統是否會在現狀（與馬杜羅以外的舊政權合作）和試圖迅速實現民主之間開闢一條中間道路，以及他是否願意開啟某種漸進式過程，我們會拭目以待。你最近寫到，美國不僅缺乏像總統聲稱的正在進行的委內瑞拉事務的管理能力，

Well, to run a country, you've got to have a real physical presence, military presence.

嗯，要管理一個國家，你必須有真正的實體存在，軍事存在。

You got to be there politically on the ground, economically.

你必須在政治上、經濟上親臨現場。

I mean, think about it, what we did in Japan and Germany after World War II, more recently, what we tried to do in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, nation building, the idea of shepherding a country through a political transition, you don't do that from offshore, you don't do that by telephone.

我的意思是，想想看，我們在二戰後的日本和德國所做的事情，最近我們在伊拉克、阿富汗、巴拿馬等地試圖做的事情，國家建設，引導一個國家度過政治轉型的想法，你不能在海外做到這一點，不能靠打電話做到。

You've got to rebuild institutions, you've got to lead by the hour.

你得重建體制，你得隨時領導。

And I just don't see this administration making that investment.

我只是覺得這個政府不會做出那樣的投資。

A lot of its base would be violently opposed to that type of a foreign or international commitment.

它的許多基本盤會強烈反對那種外國或國際承諾。

So again, the President wants the benefits of that kind of a policy without the costs.

所以，總統想要那種政策的好處，卻不想付出代價。

And it's just life doesn't work that way.

You cite, of course, previous examples of failed US Efforts at nation building, Afghanistan and Iraq.

你當然提到了美國過去在國家建設上失敗的例子，像是阿富汗和伊拉克。

It seems like the administration's making the argument that they, for instance, are not making the mistake that the US did in Iraq of, you know, taking apart all the institutions there.

看來這個政府的論點是，他們不會重蹈美國在伊拉克那樣的覆轍，你知道的，拆毀那裡的所 institutions。

De baathification, all that stuff you're very familiar with.

去伊拉克化，所有這些你都很熟悉的。

I mean, is there any wisdom in that argument?

我的意思是，這個論點有什麼道理嗎？

We disbanded the military, we disbanded all the institutions.

我們解散了軍隊，解散了所有機構。

This administration now is going to the other extreme.

這個政府現在走向另一個極端。

Rather than nation building, this is just a simple leadership change.

與其說是國家建設，這只是一個簡單的領導人更迭。

And what they're hoping is this is enough.

But as you heard say from the leaders of some of the oil companies, Jim, this is not a recipe for long term stability.

但就像你聽到一些石油公司領導人說的，Jim，這不是長期穩定的辦法。

And if you want American companies to make long term investments, you've got to give them more confidence.

如果你想讓美國公司做長期投資，你得讓他們更有信心。

That's why I think what the administration is doing might be okay for now, but

這就是為什麼我認為政府現在的做法或許可以，但是

The examples that you'll hear from some of the administration supporters, setting aside Iraq and Afghanistan are places like Panama or Granada, let's be frank, much smaller than Venezuela.

你會聽到一些政府支持者舉的例子，撇開伊拉克和阿富汗不談，像是巴拿馬或格瑞那達，坦白說，它們比委內瑞拉小多了。

But they'll say, well, look what we did there.

但他們會說，看看我們在那裡做了什麼。

在那裡有效，在這裡也能奏效。

We had unique relations in places like Panama because of the Canal.

我們在巴拿馬等地有獨特的關係，因為運河。

我們在那裡還有兩萬五千到兩萬六千名部隊。

We had an American serviceman there killed and so forth.

我們有一名美國軍人在那裡犧牲了，等等。

So because it worked, there is not an argument it will work here.

所以因為在那裡有效，並不代表在這裡也會有效。