Name: 烏俄和平談判：澤倫斯基在讓步問題上的立場為何？| DW 重點新聞 (Ukraine-Russia peace talks: Where Zelenskyy stands on concessions | DW News)
Uploaded: 2025-12-14T17:12:49.000Z
Duration: 11 min 34 s

Ukraine and its allies are preparing for more talks here in Berlin aimed at securing a breakthrough to end the war with Russia.

烏克蘭及其盟友正準備在柏林進行更多會談，目標是尋求突破以結束與俄羅斯的戰爭。

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President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is due to meet US Envoy Steve Witkoff as Washington presses for progress despite little movement so far.

總統澤倫斯基預計將會見美國特使 Steve Witkoff，儘管目前進展甚微，華盛頓仍力求取得進展。

Meanwhile, Russia has intensified attacks on civilian areas and on Ukraine's energy infrastructure.

與此同時，俄羅斯加劇了對平民區和烏克蘭能源基礎設施的攻擊。

The constant hum of power generators on the streets of Odessa after Russian strikes took out residents electricity supply authorities say Moscow attacked five regions the night before with some 450 drones and 30 missiles targeting the country's energy and port infrastructure.

官員表示，莫斯科前一晚攻擊了五個地區，使用了約 450 架無人機和 30 枚導彈，目標是該國的能源和港口基礎設施，俄羅斯襲擊導致居民電力供應中斷後，敖德薩街頭不斷傳來發電機的嗡嗡聲。

At one point, the Interior Ministry said a million people were without power.

內政部曾表示，一度有百萬人無電可用。

Also in the city of Mykolaiv, the public was left without electricity.

在尼古拉耶夫市，民眾同樣陷入無電可用的困境。

But even sitting in the cold and dark, people refused to feel powerless.

但即使身處寒冷黑暗中，人們仍拒絕感到無力。

They want to break us, of course, but as you can see, we're not giving up.

他們當然想擊垮我們，但正如你們所見，我們不會放棄。

not under the terms that have been proposed in the peace talks.

President Volodymyr Zelensky has been pushing hard for better terms under Ukraine's revised version of the US Peace proposal.

總統澤倫斯基一直在努力爭取烏克蘭修改後的美國和平提議中的更好條件。

On Saturday, Zelenskyy said he'll join talks with European and American officials in Berlin and confirmed he would personally meet with Donald Trump's envoys there.

週六，澤倫斯基表示他將與歐洲和美國官員在柏林會談，並確認他將親自會見川普的特使。

We are now preparing for meetings with the American side and our European friends in the coming days.

我們現在正為未來幾天與美方及我們的歐洲朋友們的會面做準備。

There will be many events in Berlin, but there's little sign there might be a breakthrough soon.

柏林將有許多活動，但不太可能很快出現突破。

One of the main sticking points remains the future of Ukraine's eastern Donbas region, much of which is occupied by Russian forces.

主要僵局之一仍然是烏克蘭東部頓巴斯地區的未來，該地區大部分被俄羅斯軍隊佔領。

According to multiple reports, Trump administration officials have been looking at possible territorial concessions as part of a peace deal, an idea Kyiv has repeatedly rejected.

根據多方報導，川普政府官員一直在考慮將領土讓步作為和平協議的一部分，基輔已多次拒絕此想法。

Russia is also insisting on retaining control over the occupied Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, something Ukraine categorically opposes.

俄羅斯也堅持要繼續控制被佔領的札波羅熱核電廠，這點烏克蘭堅決反對。

Negotiations and diplomatic efforts have so far yielded few results.

談判和外交努力到目前為止收效甚微。

The latest attacks underscore the challenge ahead, pursuing diplomacy while the war rages on.

最新的攻擊凸顯了前方的挑戰，在戰爭持續進行的同時，還得追求外交途徑。

We can now get the view from Lviv in western Ukraine, where DW special correspondent Nimisha Jaiswal is standing by for us.

我們現在可以從烏克蘭西部的利沃夫獲得最新情況，DW 特派記者 Nimisha Jaiswal 在那裡為我們待命。

Clearly, a lot of pressure on Ukrainian cities.

顯然，烏克蘭的城市承受著巨大的壓力。

How is Ukraine approaching these talks in Berlin?

烏克蘭將如何處理在柏林的這些談判？

Well, Tommy, last evening, President Zelensky spoke at length about these upcoming talks and sounded somewhat optimistic.

嗯，Tommy，昨晚，澤倫斯基總統詳細談論了即將舉行的會談，聽起來有些樂觀。

He said the chance for peace in this moment is considerable.

他說，此刻和平的機會相當可觀。

He seemed to focus on recovery and reconstruction.

He said that would be under discussion in the talks, as well as security guarantees.

他說，這將是會談的討論內容，安全保障也是。

Now, media Reports are saying that Ukraine may just be on the path to getting what it wants from the US at least, which is bilateral security guarantees that are legally binding and approved by Congress.

現在，媒體報導說，烏克蘭至少可能正走在從美國獲得他們想要的道路上，那就是具有法律約束力且經國會準許的雙邊安全保障。

Interestingly, in last night's daily address, Zelensky did not talk about territorial concessions, which is one of the main sticking points that has been coming up again and again.

有趣的是，在昨晚的每日演說中，澤倫斯基沒有談到領土讓步，這是不斷出現的主要症結之一。

But he did say that Ukraine was negotiating from a position of strength because it is holding its positions on the front lines.

但他確實說，烏克蘭是從強勢地位進行談判，因為他們守住了前線陣地。

Alinsky himself showed up at one of these contested cities in Kupiansk earlier this week to make a speech from there.

Alinsky 本人本週稍早出現在這些有爭議的城市之一 Kupiansk 發表演講。

Now, this is a city that Russia claimed to have taken already.

現在，這是俄羅斯聲稱已經佔領的城市。

And this is important in this moment because one of the reasons the US has been pushing territorial concessions is that it believes Moscow's claims that it can take the region, the contested region, from Ukraine in the next six months.

而這在這一刻很重要，因為美國推動領土讓步的原因之一是，他們相信莫斯科聲稱能在未來六個月內從烏克蘭手中奪取該地區，也就是有爭議的地區。

We are holding that line, Ukraine holding the line.

我們正在堅守陣線，烏克蘭堅守陣線。

But is it realistic that they can get more than that?

但他們能獲得更多嗎？這現實嗎？

For example, getting back what they've already lost to the Russians or even more getting back what has been lost to the Russians is not really on the table at all.

例如，拿回他們已經失去給俄羅斯的東西，甚至更多拿回已經失去給俄羅斯的東西，根本就不在考慮之列。

Instead, what it seems to be, what seems to be under contest is the Donbass region.

而現在，真正有爭議的似乎是頓巴斯地區。

Now, Moscow claims the entirety of this region made up of Donetsk and Luhansk.

莫斯科聲稱，這個由頓內茨克和盧甘斯克組成的地區，他們要全部拿下。

Ukraine still holds about 25% of Donetsk, but Russia wants Ukrainian troops to back out from there.

烏克蘭仍然控制著頓內茨克約25%的地區，但俄羅斯希望烏克蘭軍隊撤出。

We got a few more details from Zelensky earlier this week.

這週稍早，我們從澤倫斯基那裡得到了一些更詳細的資訊。

He says that the US Would like Ukraine to back out and make this a special economic zone, that Russia calls it a demilitarized zone.

他說美國希望烏克蘭撤出，讓這裡成為一個俄羅斯稱之為非軍事區的特殊經濟區。

But Zelensky pointed out that many sticking points remains.

但澤倫斯基指出，仍然有許多難以克服的障礙。

俄羅斯會撤退相同數量的部隊嗎？

And how will they make sure that they're not infiltrators in the zone?

還有，他們要如何確保區域內沒有滲透者？

Now, all of this is, of course, still on the table, but

當然，這一切都還在討論階段，但是

Zelensky has not completely shut down any conversation around territorial concessions.

但澤倫斯基並沒有完全關閉關於領土讓步的任何對話。

But because he has said that this is up to the people of Ukraine, they could hold an election or a referendum.

但因為他說過這取決於烏克蘭人民，他們可以舉行選舉或公投。

Of course, this is impossible in war times.

And he has asked for Western security guarantees for to be able to hold such an election or referendum here.

而且他已經請求西方給予安全保障，以便在這裡舉行這樣的選舉或公投。

But it does seem unlikely to actually go through Nimisha.

不過，這似乎不太可能真的實現，Nimisha。

I guess we'll have to leave it there for now.

Jaiswell in Lviv, thank you for that update.

Jaiswell 在利沃夫，謝謝你的最新消息。

She is a senior fellow at the Observer Research foundation and joins us now from New Delhi.

她是 Observer Research foundation 的資深研究員，現在從新德里加入我們。

German Chancellor Friedrich Mertz suggested that Berlin could see a final discussion of this common peace proposal for Ukraine.

德國總理 Friedrich Mertz 建議柏林可以針對這項共同和平提案進行最終討論。

How realistic do you think that assessment is?

Well, I think that there is still a lot of daylight between where Ukraine is, where Russia is, and

嗯，我認為烏克蘭和俄羅斯之間，還有

some of the key sticking points, especially in terms of things like bilateral security guarantees, land in the eastern Donbas.

一些關鍵的僵持點，尤其是在雙邊安全保障、頓巴斯地區的土地問題上，還有很大的差距。

These will set the stage not only for peace now, but

for the future security of Ukraine and for Russia's future ability to potentially invade again.

烏克蘭未來的安全，還有俄羅斯未來可能再次入侵的能力，奠定基礎。

So while, while I appreciate that Friedrich Meritz seems to have a good outlook on what might come in Berlin, I'm a little bit more skeptical when it comes to how close we are to a real any sort of agreement here.

所以，雖然我欣賞 Friedrich Meritz 對於柏林可能發生的事情似乎有很好的展望，但對於我們離任何真正的協議有多近，我有點懷疑。

And so if there's no significant breakthrough from Berlin, what kind of message or kind of signal do you think that sends to Moscow?

如果柏林沒有重大的突破，你認為這會向莫斯科傳達什麼樣的訊息或信號？

Well, I mean, I think there's a couple of messages here.

One is of the immense resolve of the Ukrainian people as they are being bombarded continuously by the Russians, especially their energy grid, as we head into a cold winter.

一個是烏克蘭人民無比的決心，他們正持續遭受俄羅斯的轟炸，尤其是他們的能源網，而我們正進入寒冷的冬天。

But I also think at the same time, there's probably a sense of immense frustration for the Ukrainians at this point and immense frustration with the US Administration in Washington as well.

但同時，我認為烏克蘭人民現在可能感到極度沮喪，華盛頓的美國政府也讓他們非常沮喪。

So while there might not be an outcome out of Berlin, I do think that we are going to see really increased pressure on behalf of Donald Trump and his administration, not as much on Russia, but

所以，雖然柏林可能沒有什麼結果，但我認為我們會看到川普和他的政府施加更大的壓力，對俄羅斯的壓力不大，但

probably on Ukraine to really push them into a place where they have no choice but to agree to a peace.

很可能會對烏克蘭施加壓力，逼迫他們別無選擇，只能同意和平。

I think we have yet to see you talk about pressure.

我認為我們還有待觀察，你談到了壓力。

I guess that focus on speed from Washington.

What does that mean for the Europeans and, and of course, for Ukraine as well?

這對歐洲人，當然還有烏克蘭意味著什麼？

Well, I think what it means is that Europe also really needs to figure out what role is it going to continue to play here.

嗯，我認為這意味著歐洲也真的需要弄清楚自己將繼續扮演什麼角色。

Does it have the political will, does it have the resolve to continue supporting Ukraine if there's no peace actually on the table?

如果桌上沒有真正的和平，他們是否有政治意願、是否有決心繼續支持烏克蘭？

Does it have a strong enough defense industrial base where it can continue to send weapons, ammunition?

他們是否有足夠強大的國防工業基礎，可以繼續運送武器和彈藥？

Is it willing to put some political skin in the game and use those frozen Russian central bank assets to give Ukraine a loan to start reconstructing?

他們是否願意拿出一些政治上的誠意，利用那些被凍結的俄羅斯央行資產，借給烏克蘭一筆錢來開始重建？

These are all major questions that are on the table.

這些都是擺在檯面上的重大問題。

And I think the Europeans are feeling some immense pressure at the moment because as of now, they really feel like they have been sidelined in these discussions, and

我認為歐洲人此刻感受到巨大的壓力，因為到目前為止，他們覺得自己在這場討論中被邊緣化了，

而且在很多方面確實也是如此。

So it's time for them to step up the plate, step up to the plate as well, to prove to Ukraine how they are still willing to Support it.

所以是時候讓他們也站出來，證明他們仍然願意支持烏克蘭。

I'm just wondering, in your point of view, what can Zelenskyy get away, get from all of this without making painful concessions, or what's the sort of best case realistic scenario for him?

我只是想知道，在你眼中，澤倫斯基能從這一切中得到什麼，而不必做出痛苦的讓步？或者對他來說，最好的現實情況是什麼？

Look, I mean, I think at this point we have to be honest about the fact that there are going to be some painful concessions.

看，我認為此刻我們必須誠實面對，有些痛苦的讓步是不可避免的。

I don't think that there is a scenario that we can discuss here that ends up where Ukraine has bilateral security guarantees.

我不認為我們在這裡討論的任何情況，最終能讓烏克蘭獲得雙邊安全保障。

It has a future in the eu, it has a future in NATO, it gets its territory back in crime territory, back in the eastern Donbas, it gets control over the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant.

它能在歐盟有未來，能在北約有未來，能收回克里米亞的領土，收回東部頓巴斯地區，能控制札波羅熱核電廠。

None of these things are going to happen altogether.

Some might happen, there might be some bilateral security guarantee with the U.S.

有些可能會發生，美國可能會提供一些雙邊安全保障。

but I think in terms of territorial concessions, we have to be honest about the fact now that that is likely what we are looking at, as difficult and unjust as that might be, I think that's the conversation that needs to be had here.

但我認為就領土讓步而言，我們現在必須誠實面對，這很可能就是我們正在看到的，儘管這很困難且不公平，我認為這才是需要在這裡討論的。

And of course, these discussions have been going on for quite a while, discussions about a peace proposal.

當然，這些討論已經持續了一段時間，關於和平提議的討論。

How is Russia, how is Moscow reading this?

俄羅斯，莫斯科是怎麼看待這一切的？

Oh, I think Russia thinks that time is on its side, and

哦，我認為俄羅斯覺得時間對他們有利，而且

It continues to bomb Ukraine, it continues to bomb the energy grid.

它持續轟炸烏克蘭，持續轟炸能源網。

I think Ukraine's feeling much more pressure than Russia is.

我認為烏克蘭承受的壓力比俄羅斯大得多。

I don't think the Donald Trump administration has been willing to put this sort of economic, military, political pressure on Moscow that it has been willing to put on Zelensky in Ukraine.

我不認為川普政府願意對莫斯科施加像對烏克蘭的澤倫斯基那樣的經濟、軍事、政治壓力。

And because of that, thus far, Russia has been able to continue its military offensive.

是以，到目前為止，俄羅斯能夠繼續其軍事攻勢。