Name: 澤倫斯基訪法期間，烏克蘭和平談判在佛州「卓有成效」？| DW 新聞 ("Productive" Ukraine peace talks in Florida as Zelenskyy visits France | DW News)
Uploaded: 2025-12-01T17:01:07.000Z
Duration: 20 min

President Vladimir Putin will hold talks with US Envoy Steve Witkoff on Tuesday as part of efforts to reach a peace deal with Ukraine.

俄羅斯總統 Vladimir Putin 將於週二與美國特使 Steve Witkoff 進行會談，以期與烏克蘭達成和平協議。

That prospective meeting in Moscow follows negotiations between U.S. and Ukrainian officials in Florida on Sunday.

這場預計在莫斯科舉行的會議，緊接著美國與烏克蘭官員週日在佛羅裡達的談判。

secretary of State Marco Rubio described the talks as productive, but said more work needs to be done.

國務卿 Marco Rubio 形容這次談判富有成效，但表示還有更多工作要做。

Substantial changes have been made to an earlier 28 point plan, which was widely seen as too favorable to Russia.

先前一份被廣泛認為過於偏袒俄羅斯的 28點計畫，已經進行了重大變更。

Rubio stressed the aim of achieving lasting peace and to help rebuild Ukraine.

Rubio 強調，目標是實現持久的和平，並協助重建烏克蘭。

Our goal here is to end the war, but it's more than just to end the war.

我們在這裡的目標是結束戰爭，但不僅僅是結束戰爭。

We also want to help Ukraine be safe forever so never again will they face another invasion.

我們也希望幫助烏克蘭永遠安全，這樣他們就再也不會面臨入侵。

And equally importantly, we want them to enter an age of true prosperity.

同樣重要的是，我們希望他們進入一個真正繁榮的時代。

We want the Ukrainian people to emerge from this war not just to rebuild their country, but

我們希望烏克蘭人民從這場戰爭中走出來，不僅是重建他們的國家，

to build it back in a way that will be stronger and more prosperous than it's ever been.

而是以一種比以往任何時候都更強大、更繁榮的方式重建。

And so this is comprehensive, what we're working on here today.

所以，我們今天在這裡所做的，是全方位的。

It's not just about the terms that ends fighting.

這不只是關於結束戰鬥的條款。

It's about also the terms that set up Ukraine for long term prosperity.

這也關乎為烏克蘭的長期繁榮奠定基礎的條款。

I thought we started laying the groundwork for that, most certainly in Geneva.

我認為我們已經開始為此打下基礎，尤其是在日內瓦。

I think we continued that work in our communications throughout the week.

我認為我們在本週的溝通中繼續了這項工作。

我認為我們今天又在此基礎上更進一步。

There are a lot of moving parts and obviously there's another party involved here that will have to be a part of the equation.

這裡有很多變數，顯然還有另一方也必須納入考量。

And that will continue later this week when Mr. Woodkop travels to Moscow.

本週晚些時候，當 Witkoff 先生前往莫斯科時，這項工作將會繼續。

She's a research fellow at the foundation for Defense of Democracy's Russia program and joins us now.

她是民主國防基金會俄羅斯計畫的研究員，現在加入我們。

Ivana, the Florida talks have been called productive.

Ivana，佛羅裡達的會談被稱為富有成效。

Were there any key concessions made from the original 28 point plan?

原來的 28 點計畫中有做出任何關鍵讓步嗎？

I think it's too early to speculate anything.

但根據 Rubio 先生的談話，他提到，你知道的，結束戰爭本身是不夠的，長遠來看，討論烏克蘭的繁榮，以及烏克蘭長久的安全，這非常重要。

Rubio's remarks where he's talking, that, you know, ending the war itself is not enough, that it's very important to think in the long term to talk about prosperity in Ukraine, that Ukraine is safe for a very long time.

這告訴我所有我需要知道的，那就是原本討論的 28 點計畫已經不再是談判的重點了。

It tells me all I really need to know, that the 28 point plan that was originally discussed is not anymore in talks.

Actually, I do believe that all those remarks related to territory concessions will not work.

其實，我認為所有關於領土讓步的說法都不會奏效。

I also think that the United States will revisit the whole concept about Ukraine joining NATO and there might be some disagreements on putting on putting the limits on the Ukrainian military.

我也認為美國會重新審視烏克蘭加入北約的整個概念，而且在對烏克蘭軍隊設限這方面可能會有一些分歧。

But as I said, I think it's very important not to make any speculations right now, but

但就像我說的，我認為現在猜測還太早了，

only to do analysis based on what we know right now.

而是要根據我們現在所知道的來進行分析。

But the most important thing will be this week further discussions in Moscow.

但最重要的是本週在莫斯科的進一步討論。

Now, US Sources say that nine points were cut post Geneva.

現在，美國消息人士表示，日內瓦之後有九點被刪除了。

What does that mean for the amnesty clause, for example, on NATO restrictions?

這對大赦條款，例如關於北約限制的條款，意味著什麼？

As I said, you know, I think it's very important to wait for the final document.

就像我說的，我認為等待最終文件非常重要。

But Washington absolutely understands that the 28 point plan will not work with Ukraine.

但華盛頓完全明白，28點計畫對烏克蘭是行不通的。

And that's absolutely ridiculous to push for that because Ukraine will not agree on surrendering territory that is not even occupied by Russia.

而且推動這點非常荒謬，因為烏克蘭不會同意放棄連俄羅斯都還沒佔領的領土。

Ukraine is not willing to give up its NATO, joining NATO, but also the eu.

烏克蘭不願意放棄加入北約，也不願意放棄加入歐盟。

I think what's very important right now to focus on is how to provide Ukraine with security guarantees.

我認為現在最重要的是要專注於如何為烏克蘭提供安全保障。

But not only that are just strong in words.

We really have to make sure once it happens that Putin will try to cross our red lines and whether we'll be willing to follow through on that.

我們真的要確保一旦發生了，普丁會試圖越過我們的紅線，而我們是否願意堅守承諾。

Now, Trump has praised Kushner and Rubio's teamwork, but Zelensky turns to Europe.

現在，川普讚揚了庫許納和魯比歐的團隊合作，但澤倫斯基轉向歐洲。

Now, is Washington, Washington losing Ukraine's trust?

現在，華盛頓是否正在失去烏克蘭的信任？

So you are absolutely right that President Trump has praised this particular meeting as he's thinking that things are moving in the direction.

所以你說得完全正確，川普總統讚揚了這次會議，因為他認為事情正朝著這個方向發展。

I don't think that Washington is going to abandon Ukraine.

我不認為華盛頓會拋棄烏克蘭。

There are a lot of things that President Trump is saying.

But I think it's very important to focus also on what he is doing.

不過我認為，我們也很重要地關注他正在做的事。

And our center of gravity is our alliances.

而我們的重心就是我們的同盟。

And that's why it's precisely very important that Europe and the United States work together.

這就是為什麼歐洲和美國必須合作，這一點非常重要。

I think, you know that it's very important for Zelenskyy to meet with European officials, including Macron, because Europe, especially Germany, France and the UK should take the lead there when it comes to security guarantees and when it comes to protection of Ukraine.

我認為，你知道澤倫斯基跟歐洲官員見面，包括馬克宏，這點非常重要，因為歐洲，特別是德國、法國和英國，在安全保障和保護烏克蘭方面應該要帶頭。

One thing that President Trump does not understand fully is that Russia is already at war with the West.

川普總統有一件事沒有完全理解，那就是俄羅斯已經在和西方開戰了。

What's happening, sabotage activities across Europe, whether cutting sea cables, whether drone incursion, this is a new generation of warfare.

正在發生的，是歐洲各地的破壞活動，無論是切斷海底電纜，還是無人機侵擾，這都是新一代的戰爭。

And right now, both Germany and France and UK Understand perfectly this.

而現在，德國、法國和英國都完全理解這一點。

And that's precisely why they are trying to sort this thing out.

這也是為什麼他們正試圖解決這個問題。

Unfortunately, the United States is stretched out to so many different areas.

不幸的是，美國的精力分散到太多不同的地方了。

What's happening in the Middle East, China threat, what's happening right now in Venezuela.

中東正在發生的事、中國的威脅，還有現在委內瑞拉的情況。

So we really have to also be focused and to understand here in Washington that Russia's aggressive war In Ukraine, it's not only against Ukraine, it's truly against the west and United States as well, because Russia, China, Iran and North Korea are working together to undermine the West.

所以我們在華盛頓真的必須專注並理解，俄羅斯侵略烏克蘭的戰爭，不只針對烏克蘭，更是針對西方和美國，因為俄羅斯、中國、伊朗和北韓正聯手削弱西方。

And the sooner Washington understands this, the better.

Now, you've mentioned that one needs to differentiate between what Trump says and what he does.

現在，您提到需要區分川普說的和做的。

Now, if Moscow rejects tweaks, will Trump use sanctions or let Putin dictate terms?

那麼，如果莫斯科拒絕修改，川普會動用制裁，還是讓普丁決定條件？

再說一次，我必須承認這不是。

If Russia rejects, I am quite certain that Putin will reject.

如果俄羅斯拒絕，我非常確定普丁也會拒絕。

And because Putin is the one who know, who believes that he can ask all those maximalist demands.

因為普丁是那個知道，認為自己可以提出所有極端要求的人。

And that's why he precisely was pushing for that 28 point agreement.

這也是為什麼他精確地推動了那個28點協議。

So actually he wanted Zelensky to reject this.

所以其實他希望澤倫斯基拒絕這個。

So portray Zelensky as an unreliable party.

所以把澤倫斯基描繪成一個不可靠的對象。

And I think this is going to be a huge test for the United States and Europe.

我認為這將會是美國和歐洲的一大考驗。

I think President Trump should pursue further sanctions and should send a very, very clear message to Moscow that if Putin doesn't stop this war, that our long range missiles will be on the horizon to provide Ukraine, so Russia will be on the defensive.

我認為川普總統應該進一步實施制裁，並且要向莫斯科傳達一個非常非常明確的訊息，如果普丁不停戰，我們的長程飛彈就會在海上，支援烏克蘭，這樣俄羅斯就會處於守勢。

Ivana Stradner there, a research fellow at the foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

Ivana Stradner，來自民主國防基金會的研究員。

Meanwhile in Paris, Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy has met with his French counterpart, Emmanuel Macron, to shore up European support.

同時在巴黎，烏克蘭的澤倫斯基會見了法國總統馬克宏，以鞏固歐洲的支持。

Macron's office said the leaders will discuss what it called the conditions of a just and durable peace.

馬克宏辦公室表示，兩位領導人將討論他們所謂的公正持久和平的條件。

This is Zelensky's second visit to Paris in recent weeks.

這是澤倫斯基近期第二次造訪巴黎。

For more, let's bring in our Paris correspondent, Lisa Lewis.

更多消息，我們連線請到巴黎特派員 Lisa Lewis。

Lisa, this is Zelenskyy's second visit within two weeks with the aim to move negotiations forward.

Lisa，這是澤倫斯基兩週內第二次出訪，目的是要推動談判。

Remind us, what role does France really play here?

請提醒我們，法國在這裡扮演了什麼樣的角色？

President Emmanuel Macron is very much at the forefront of this European show of support for Ukraine.

總統馬克宏非常積極地站在歐洲支持烏克蘭的最前線。

This is actually the 10th visit by President Zelensky since the start of Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.

這其實是自從2022年2月俄羅斯全面入侵烏克蘭以來，澤倫斯基總統第10次的訪問。

The Europeans want to show that they stand united with Ukraine.

歐洲國家想要展現他們與烏克蘭站在一起。

That country has long since turned into Europe's front, you know, the front line in this war with Russia, especially as a number of European countries have been hit by so called hybrid attacks, airspace violations, incidents with trains, but

這個國家早就變成了歐洲的戰線，你知道的，在這場與俄羅斯的戰爭中，尤其是因為許多歐洲國家遭受了所謂的混合攻擊、侵犯領空、火車事件，但是

And that's why a number of European countries have put in place again military service such as France last week that announced a voluntary military service destined to gear up the ranks of its military personnel by tens of thousands of soldiers in over the next decade.

這也是為什麼許多歐洲國家再次實施兵役，就像法國上週宣佈的志願役兵役，目標是在未來十年內，為其軍隊增加數萬名阿兵哥。

by extension the EU position How do they position themselves to stay relevant in this peace process?

歐盟又該如何定位自己，在這個和平進程中保持相關性呢？

It's very difficult for the Europeans to stay relevant.

歐洲國家要保持相關性其實非常困難。

They know that Russia very much wants to talk to only the US directly and sideline Europe and even Ukraine.

他們知道俄羅斯非常想直接跟美國談，而把歐洲甚至烏克蘭排除在外。

But they have been managing to keep the conversation going to get into those closed doors with some kind of success.

但他們設法讓對話持續下去，並成功地進入了那些閉門會議。

When you look at the current police plan that is on the table in its initial version, for example, there is no talks of any, you know, NATO troops in or there was actually a ban on NATO troops in Ukraine and now that has turned into some kind of Western troops, Western troops that shouldn't be stationed there in the long run.

當你看看目前桌上的這個初步版本的和平計畫，裡面並沒有提到任何，你知道的，北約部隊，或者說，先前是禁止北約部隊進入烏克蘭的，現在這已經變成某種西方部隊，是長期來說不應該駐紮在那裡的西方部隊。

So somehow the European Union is getting a place at the table, even if it's very difficult to maintain that place.

所以，歐盟 somehow 還是有了一席之地，即使要維持這個位置非常困難。

Now France wants a central role in delivering security guarantees to Ukraine.

現在法國想要在提供烏克蘭安全保障方面扮演核心角色。

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澤倫斯基訪法期間，烏克蘭和平談判在佛州「卓有成效」？| DW 新聞 ("Productive" Ukraine peace talks in Florida as Zelenskyy visits France | DW News)

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