Name: 中國如何打出地緣政治牌，同時應對西方國家戰事？| DW 新聞 (How China is playing its geopolitical cards as the West fights | DW News)
Uploaded: 2026-02-15T17:23:56.000Z
Duration: 14 min 49 s

So I'm here at the Munich Security Conference with Dawei, he's a professor at Tsinghua University in Beijing and also, you know, one of the regular attendees of the Munich Security Conference that comes with, with the Chinese delegation here.

我現在在慕尼黑安全會議，旁邊這位是David，他是北京清華大學的教授，也是每次中國代表團來參加慕尼黑安全會議的固定班底之一。

So Dawei, we've just seen the back to back speeches by Marco Rubio and Wang Yi, the US and Chinese foreign ministers respectively.

David，我們剛剛聽了美國和中國外交部長馬可·魯比歐和王毅的背靠背演講。

We've seen very different visions of the world presented by both.

兩位提出了非常不同的世界願景。

What's your kind of overarching takeaway?

I think the two leaders gave very different, as you said, very different speech and aiming to the, I mean, sending different messages to the audience.

我覺得兩位領導人，就像你說的，給了很不一樣的演講，傳達了不同的訊息給聽眾。

I think from the Marco Rubio parts, what I have heard in this morning's speech is about, I think he's trying to send some reconciliatory message to the European audience because you know, we know last year JD Vance gave a quite harsh speech here and earlier this year around the Green Line and other issues, Europe had a lot of concern about the U.S.

我認為從馬可·魯比歐的部分，我今天早上聽到的演講，我覺得他試圖向歐洲聽眾傳達一些和解的訊息，因為你知道，我們知道去年J.D. 凡斯在這裡發表了相當嚴厲的演講，今年稍早關於綠線和其他議題，歐洲對美國有很多擔憂。

so I think Marco Rubio tried to reassure Europe that Europe and the US are still, you know, one civilization and a lot of historic connections.

所以我認為馬可·魯比歐試圖安撫歐洲，讓他們知道歐洲和美國仍然是，你知道，同一個文明，有著許多歷史淵源。

So he said we are the child of Europe, of Europe.

他說我們是歐洲的孩子，是歐洲的。

I think that's a very, for me, very important message.

我認為這對我來說，是一個非常重要的訊息。

He tried to tell Europe that we are different but we are still the same family.

他試圖告訴歐洲，我們不一樣，但我們仍然是同一個家人。

And for China, this kind of very, very public falling out between Europe and the United States, which really began here in Munich a year ago with that speech by J.D.

而且對中國來說，歐洲和美國之間這種非常、非常公開的爭執，其實在一年前的慕尼黑安全會議上，J.D.

This has been a big opportunity for China, hasn't it?

這對中國來說是個大好機會，不是嗎？

Theoretically, I will say it is an opportunity.

理論上，我會說這確實是個機會。

But how to grab this opportunity, I think it's quite difficult, to be honest.

但要怎麼抓住這個機會，說實話，我覺得還挺難的。

I think the split between Europe and the United States is a limited one.

我認為歐洲和美國之間的裂痕是有限的。

And also we have, I mean China and Europe have a lot of differences, particularly you know, on Ukraine war and also on the economic relationship between the two sides.

而且，我的意思是，中國和歐洲之間有很多差異，特別是在烏克蘭戰爭以及雙邊經濟關係上。

So I think Europe had problem with the US does not equal to better China Europe relations.

所以，我認為歐洲和美國之間的問題，並不等於中歐關係會變好。

I think it will not be automatically translated into the latter.

我認為這不會自動轉化成後者。

So of course this depends on how Europe and how China interact.

所以當然，這取決於歐洲和中國如何互動。

I'm happy to see so many European leaders, including Chancellor Mertz will visit China very soon.

我很高興看到這麼多歐洲領袖，包括梅爾茨總理，很快就會訪問中國。

I think that's a good opportunity for the two sides try to stabilize and even improve the bilateral relations.

我認為這是雙方穩定甚至改善雙邊關係的好機會。

And yeah, I mean, you pick up on some of the deep problems between Europe and China.

是的，我的意思是，你點出了歐洲和中國之間的一些深層問題。

We heard Wolfgang Ischinger, the chairman of the Munich Security Conference again trying to get Wang Yi to say that you know, what China might do to put pressure on the Russians to end this war.

我們聽到慕尼黑安全會議主席沃爾夫岡·伊辛格再次試圖讓王毅說，中國可能會做些什麼來向俄羅斯施壓，結束這場戰爭。

Again, Wang Yi dodged the question, said it's basically nothing to do with us.

王毅又一次迴避了這個問題，說這基本上跟我們沒關係。

Why is China so reluctant to apply some pressure to the Russian side to say, come on, guys, this is enough?

為什麼中國這麼不願意對俄羅斯施加一些壓力，說「拜託，夠了吧」？

I think it's not China's first, it's not China's foreign policy approach to pressure.

我認為這不是中國的，也不是中國外交政策裡會去施壓的做法。

Other countries say, you have to do this, you have to do that.

其他國家會說，你必須這麼做，你必須那麼做。

China say you maybe privately, quietly, I think it's better if you do this, if you do that.

中國可能會私下、悄悄地跟你說，我認為你這麼做、那麼做會比較好。

Well, could I just interrupt there, because, I mean, China has certainly been, you know, applying an awful lot of pressure to a lot of countries in its neighborhood, whether it's Japan recently about the comments that Prime Minister Takechi made about Taiwan, whether it's the Philippines where China's used for Coast Guard maritime militia against Philippines fishing vessels in the disputed South China Sea.

嗯，我可以打斷一下嗎？因為，我的意思是，中國肯定一直在對其鄰國施加很大的壓力，無論是最近針對日本首相岸田文雄關於臺灣的言論，還是針對菲律賓，中國在南海爭議海域對菲律賓漁船動用了海警和海上民兵。

So I don't think it's the case that China is completely immune to using pressure in international relations.

所以我不認為中國在國際關係中完全不會使用壓力。

I mean, those cases you raised, you mentioned all the direct bilateral, you know, conflict between those countries and China, like Japan and the Philippines.

我的意思是，你提到的那些例子，你都說了這些國家和中國之間直接的雙邊衝突，像是日本和菲律賓。

But as you know, Foreign Minister Wang Yi said, Ukraine, war, of course, is a very important issue here, but

但正如你所知，外交部長王毅說，烏克蘭戰爭當然是一個非常重要的議題，但是

中國並非這場戰爭的直接參與方。

We maintain normal trade relations with, with both Russia and the Ukraine.

我們與俄羅斯和烏克蘭都維持正常的貿易關係。

So for us, we think that we can persuade our friend in Russia not to do this.

所以對我們來說，我們認為我們可以說服我們在俄羅斯的朋友不要這樣做。

Maybe it's in their interest, but we can really, it's really hard to pressure them.

或許這符合他們的利益，但我們真的，真的很難給他們施壓。

And no need, no need to mention Russia is a major country, is a big power.

更不用說俄羅斯是一個大國，是一個強權。

It's really hard if, you know, President Trump cannot pressure, you know, President Putin to stop.

如果川普總統不能施壓普丁總統停止，那真的會很困難。

不過，這點我可能要跟你討論一下。

I mean, of course, you know, it may you say that it does not affect China's direct interests, but

我的意思是，當然，你可能會說這不影響中國的直接利益，但是

China is out there in the world saying that it is one of the main countries standing for international law.

中國在國際上宣稱自己是支持國際法的主要國家之一。

For instance, Wang Yi referred to this in his speech.

舉例來說，王毅在他的演講中就提到了這點。

Well, you know, one of the biggest and most severe breaches of international law in recent years is Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

嗯，你知道，近年來最嚴重、最嚴重的國際法違規之一就是俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭。

So why would that not be a case where Russia, where China would believe, okay, it has to talk to the Russians and say you have to, you know, really take steps to end this?

那為什麼中國不會認為，好吧，中國必須跟俄羅斯談判，然後說你們必須，你知道，真的採取措施來結束這場戰爭？

In fact, it goes in the opposite direction with an extremely building up an extremely close relationship with Russia in terms of economics, in terms of business, in terms of supply chains and also very, very visible diplomatic events such as many, many close meetings, very friendly meetings between Xi J and Vladimir Putin.

事實上，情況正好相反，中國和俄羅斯建立了極其緊密的關係，無論是在經濟、商業還是供應鏈方面，還有非常、非常明顯的外交活動，像是習近平和普丁之間許多、許多親密的會面，友好的會面。

I mean that looks like supporting Russia, not constraining Russia.

我認為這看起來像是支持俄羅斯，而不是限制俄羅斯。

I think our position is, you know, of course this war is, you know, influencing everybody, influencing the whole world.

我認為我們的立場是，你知道，當然這場戰爭，你知道，影響著每一個人，影響著全世界。

But again China is not direct party in the war.

但再次強調，中國並不是這場戰爭的直接參與者。

And China, it's true that China maintain close trade relations with, with Russia.

而中國，確實中國和俄羅斯保持著密切的貿易關係。

But to be honest, we are also the largest trading partner of Ukraine.

但說實話，我們也是烏克蘭最大的貿易夥伴。

So I think you know, this fact, you know, not be mentioned very frequently here in Europe.

所以我想你知道，這個事實，你知道，在歐洲這裡沒有被經常提及。

Actually I think your Ukrainian side also use a lot of Chinese civilian drone parts to build their parts.

其實我認為你們烏克蘭那邊也用了不少中國的民用無人機零件來組裝他們的零件。

So you can also say from that regard China is also helping Ukraine.

所以你也可以說，從這方面來看，中國也在幫助烏克蘭。

But again it's not being mentioned a lot, a lot here.

但 again，這點在這裡並沒有被很多人提及。

Still it's clear that China would like improved relations with Europe.

不過很明顯的是，中國希望改善與歐洲的關係。

It sees that Europe's view of China has been severely damaged by, by relationship with Russia.

它認為歐洲對中國的看法，因為與俄羅斯的關係而嚴重受損。

But still that is not enough to motivate China to say to the Russians stop this.

但這還不足以促使中國對俄羅斯說停止。

I think it's China think China believe that China has done, we should do like China.

我認為中國認為中國已經做了，我們應該像中國一樣做。

You know, after one year China launched the, we have the so called 12 points of our principal, our positions in this war including.

你知道，一年後中國發起了，我們有 cosiddigt 的 12 點原則，我們在這次戰爭中的立場，包括。

The first point is to point out the importance of sovereignty and territory integrity of all the countries, I think of course including Ukraine.

第一點是強調所有國家的主權和領土完整的重要性，我認為當然也包括烏克蘭。

But if we are talking about a very, you know, specific mediation effort, I think China of course is willing to do that.

但如果我們談論的是非常具體的調解努力，我認為中國當然願意這麼做。

But I don't think it's, you know, a good chance for China to do it unilaterally with or bilaterally with Russia.

但我認為這不是中國單獨或與俄羅斯雙邊進行調解的好機會。

I think if we can do it together, Europe, us, China or UN you can do it together.

我認為如果我們可以一起合作，歐洲、我們、中國或聯合國，我們可以一起做到。

China is very much willing to participate.

also the US has initiated many, you know, mediation effort but China is not, was not invited to that.

美國也發起了許多調解努力，但中國沒有被邀請。

So I think China theoretically, China want to join but need a proper platform.

所以我想中國理論上，中國想加入，但需要一個適當的平臺。

Still, as we heard with the repeated questions from Isshin, we hear from, from European governments a lot that they're still very upset about the Chinese position.

不過，正如我們從一心的重複提問中聽到的，我們從歐洲政府那裡聽到了很多，他們對中國的立場仍然非常不滿。

But let's move on to one of the other issues you mentioned with, with trade and a sort of a weaponization of trade which we've seen in, in recent times.

但讓我們來談談你提到的另一個問題，關於貿易以及我們近年來看到的貿易武器化。

So China dominates the supply of rare earth minerals that are used in many important kind of tech supply chains, particularly in the clean economy.

所以中國主導了稀土礦物的供應，這些礦物用於許多重要的科技供應鏈，尤其是在綠色經濟方面。

Last year we saw China beginning to impose restrictions on those and these are now seen as a kind of A Damoc sort of Damocles over international supply chains that China can use and apply selectively.

去年我們看到中國開始對這些礦物實施限制，現在這些限制被視為一把懸在國際供應鏈上的達摩克利斯之劍，中國可以選擇性地使用和應用。

What is going on here is this China kind of learning to use the toolbox of sanctions that the United States has sort of perfected over the years.

這裡發生的事情是，中國似乎正在學習使用美國多年來已經非常熟練的制裁工具箱。

The thing you mentioned, actually that's export control, you know, comprehensively.

你提到的這一點，其實就是出口管制，你知道，全面性的。

It's not aiming at any particular country.

And more importantly, China has not, China did not use it.

而且更重要的是，中國沒有，中國沒有使用它。

And then of course including European countries and the US talked to China.

然後當然，包括歐洲國家和美國都和中國談了。

But don't forget the fact that the US including European countries has already imposed, that's already happened, high tech product restriction to China.

但別忘了，包括歐洲國家在內的美國，已經對中國實施了高科技產品限制，這已經發生了。

So you would see this as a kind of a tit for tat situation, kinds of tit for tat.

所以你會覺得這是一種以牙還牙、針鋒相對的情況。

But, but again, very importantly, the Western country has already done that on China for years.

但，但再次強調，非常重要的一點是，西方國家幾年來已經對中國這麼做了。

And you know, I don't think China is planning to do that to, to Europe on rare earth.

而且你知道，我不認為中國打算對歐洲在稀土方面這麼做。

So if sanction, I will say it's more or less it's a countermeasure to the United States but not Europe.

所以如果說是制裁，我會說這更像是對美國的反制措施，而不是對歐洲。

Well, I think, yeah, and the Chinese have said this to the Europeans repeatedly.

嗯，我認為，是的，中國人已經一再對歐洲人這麼說了。

the Europeans see that this is now an established measure that could be used to squeeze them at almost any moment.

歐洲人認為這已經是一種既定的措施，幾乎隨時都可能被用來壓制他們。

And the Germans particularly worried about that, that's for sure.

德國人尤其擔心這一點，這肯定沒錯。

Do you see that this is, this kind of move by the Chinese only encourages an effort in the west to decouple their economies from China because they feel they cannot rely on those supplies in the future.

你認為中國的這種舉動只會鼓勵西方國家努力與中國經濟脫鉤，因為他們覺得未來無法依賴這些供應嗎？