Name: 「我們正處於道德危機！」喬恩·米查姆談論美國脆弱的民主實驗 ("We're In A Moral Crisis" - Jon Meacham On America's Fragile Democratic Experiment)
Uploaded: 2026-01-16T17:07:37.000Z
Duration: 8 min 8 s

程度副詞

My next guest is a Pulitzer Prize winning biographer who's just written a new book, American Democracy, Dissent and the Pursuit of a More Perfect Union.

我下一位的來賓是普立茲獎得獎的傳記作家，他最近寫了一本新書，書名是 American Democracy, Dissent and the Pursuit of a More Perfect Union。

Please welcome back to THE Late Show, Jon Meacham.

歡迎他再次來到 THE Late Show，Jon Meacham。

Thank you for lending your dignity and your glory to us.

謝謝你把你的尊嚴和光彩借給我們。

It's not every audience in late night that's excited for John Meecham to be here.

不是每個深夜節目觀眾都對 John Meecham 的到來感到興奮。

I'm usually at assisted living facilities slotted in between Murder, She Wrote and Jeopardy.

我通常是在 assisted living facilities，排在 Murder, She Wrote 和 Jeopardy 中間。

Congrats on the new book that's coming out February 17th.

恭喜你即將在 February 17th 發行新書。

American Democracy, Dissent and the Pursuit of a More Perfect Union.

American Democracy, Dissent and the Pursuit of a More Perfect Union。

The book charts America's long, often painful history through division and debate.

這本書描繪了美國漫長、痛苦的 division and debate 歷史。

And I'm curious, as you are about to release this book, which is full of people speaking to their national moment, what do you make of our national moment?

而且我很好奇，在你即將推出這本充滿人們談論 national moment 的書時，你怎麼看待我們的 national moment？

Look, the founders anticipated that we would have seasons of fear, we'd have seasons in which we would not obey the rule of law, that our appetites and our ambitions would overcome what Lincoln called our better angels.

你看，開國元勳們預料到我們會有恐懼的時期，會有不遵守 rule of law 的時期，我們的 appetites and our ambitions 會壓倒林肯所說的 better angels。

I don't know if they quite had this in mind.

我不知道他們是不是完全預料到這一點。

I mean, in the Federalist Papers there are descriptions of people very much like absolutely men of sort of pure ambition who basically ride the crowd into power.

我的意思是，《Federalist Papers》中有描述，有些人就像是那種純粹追求權力的野心家，他們基本上是 ride the crowd into power。

And the Constitution did everything in its power to anticipate how to check that grab for power.

而憲法竭盡所能地預想如何遏制這種 grab for power。

And the first three words are the animating words of the Constitution.

而開頭的三個字是憲法的靈魂。

The document is only as good as the people doing the voting, the people we vote into office and then the people who act as checks and balances.

這份文件的好壞，取決於投票的人、我們選進辦公室的人，以及那些扮演制衡角色的公職人員。

我覺得，這就是現在正在發生的事。

我認為我們正處於一場道德危機。

I think that we have too many of us have decided to put our own interests ahead of a constitutional order that is based on a rule of law and is based on our actually not just taking everything we want right when we want it.

我覺得我們太多人決定把自己的利益擺在一個基於法治的憲政秩序之上，而這個秩序要求我們不能隨心所欲地想拿什麼就拿什麼。

If I like your tie and I want it and I just grab it, yes.

如果我喜歡你的領帶，想要它，然後就直接搶走，對。

What I should do is say, that's a pretty good tie.

我應該做的是說，這條領帶真不錯。

I'd like to go make enough money to be able to go into the marketplace and buy that tie.

我要努力賺錢，以便將來能在市場上買到這條領帶。

Needed my tie for national security, or else China or Russia were going to come in and take my tie.

為了國家安全需要我的領帶，否則中國或俄羅斯就會進來把我的領帶拿走。

Isn't it the right thing to just take my tie?

直接拿走我的領帶，不才是對的嗎？

This is why God put you right here, I think.

我想，這就是上帝把你放在這裡的原因。

Look, if you ever wanted an example of why the character of the person you send to the presidency of the United States matters, I refer you to the last 361 days, however long it's been, feels like a lot longer.

聽著，如果你曾經想要一個例子，說明為什麼你選美國總統的品格很重要，我會讓你看看過去 361 天，不管過了多久，感覺都長很多。

Because, again, the Constitution, the norms, people like me who look like me talk about norms and people think, oh, that's boring.

因為，再說一次，憲法、常規，像我這樣的人談論常規，大家就會覺得，哦，那很無聊。

It's not because a norm is a synonym for doing the right thing, not because you're told to, not because the letter of the law says you have to do it, but

這不是因為常規是做對事情的同義詞，不是因為有人告訴你，不是因為法律條文規定你必須這麼做，而是

because you obey the spirit of these documents that I wanted to go back and pull together here.

因為你遵守了這些我想要回去整理的文件精神。

The most important idea in the American experience was the one that Thomas Jefferson wrote in June of 1776, that all men are created equal.

美國經驗中最重要的想法是湯瑪斯·傑佛遜在 1776 年 6 月寫下的，那就是人人生而平等。

Every generation that has advanced the cause of liberty has lived into that sentence.

每一個推動自由事業的世代，都活在這句話裡。

The generations that have pulled us back, and there have been, are the ones that have forgotten that.

而那些把我們拉回來的世代，確實有過，他們都忘記了這件事。

這是一個建立在理念上的國家。

Patriotism is loyalty to an idea, to a creed, a creed that anybody who comes here, as Ronald Reagan said, all the lost people from all the lost pilgrims from all the lost places who are hurtling through the darkness toward home.

愛國主義是對一個理念、一個信條的忠誠，一個信條，就像雷根說的，任何來到這裡的人，所有迷失的人，從所有迷失的朝聖者，從所有迷失的地方，在黑暗中奔向家園。

Ronald Reagan said that in his farewell address.

Ronald Reagan couldn't be nominated by this Republican Party.

雷根在這個共和黨裡根本不可能被提名。

Well, in this book, as I said, this is a collection of many Americans from many points of view, addressing their moment in the American story.

嗯，在這本書裡，就像我說的，這是一本集合了許多美國人，從不同觀點出發，來談論他們在美國故事中的時刻。

And are there one or two in here that especially feel instructive for today?

這裡面有沒有一兩個特別能啟發我們今天的呢？

See, Frederick Douglass is always instructive, I think the most important American of the 19th century in many ways.

你看，我認為佛瑞德里克·道格拉斯總是很有啟發性，在很多方面，他都是19世紀最重要的美國人。

Imagine what it takes for a person born into enslavement in 1852 to stand up and say, I, for one, do not despair of this Republic.

想像一下，一個在1852年出生於奴役中的人，要站起來說「我，至少，並不絕望於這個共和國」，這需要多大的勇氣。

The fiat of the Almighty, let there be light, has not yet spent its force.

全能者說要有光，這道光芒尚未消逝。

And he called the Constitution a glorious liberty document because he saw that it was the user's guide, if you will, for that mission statement.

他稱憲法為一份光榮的自由文件，因為他明白，如果願意這麼說的話，它就是那份使命宣言的使用指南。

The Declaration of Independence is our mission statement.

《獨立宣言》是我們的使命宣言。

And one thing we have to remember, all of us, is that there's nothing guaranteed about America making it to tomorrow.

我們都必須記住一件事，那就是美國的明天並非理所當然。

This is a fragile experiment because it's human.

這是個脆弱的實驗，因為它是人為的。

And what I want everybody to try to do at this point is think about what do you want the future to say about us?

在這個時候，我希望大家都能想想，你們希望未來如何評價我們？

We're at risk of being a generation that loses the ethos that sent men to Omaha beach, that sent people into Gettysburg, who sent people to Selma, Alabama, to broaden the definition and understanding of what the country can be.

我們有可能會成為一個失去精神的世代，那個精神曾讓 men 登上奧馬哈海灘，曾讓人民前往葛底斯堡，曾讓人民前往阿拉巴馬州的塞爾瑪，以擴展國家潛力的定義和理解。

it's also vitally, was never supposed to be about the whims and the ego of a single person.

這也絕對，從來就不該是關於某個單一人物的奇想和自負。

His book, american struggle, is out February 17th and available to pre order now.

他的書 american struggle，將於 February 17th 出版，現正開放預購。