Name: 哪個國家擁有世界上最好的教育？- 全球故事》播客，BBC 全球服務 (Which country has the best education in the world? - The Global Story podcast, BBC World Service)
Uploaded: 2025-04-29T15:21:15.000Z
Duration: 22 min 13 s

Hello, I'm Lucy Hockings, from the BBC World Service, this is The Global Story.

大家好，我是英國廣播公司世界頻道的露西-霍金斯（Lucy Hockings），這裡是《全球故事》。

to 不定詞

A good education can make us richer, healthier and help us to thrive.

良好的教育能讓我們更富有、更健康，並幫助我們茁壯成長。

形容詞最高級

And governments around the world compete in global rankings to see which nation is deemed to have the best school system in the world.

世界各國政府競相進行全球排名，看哪個國家的學校系統被認為是世界上最好的。

Asian schools often get the best results, with some Nordic countries also highly praised.

亞洲學校的成績往往最好，一些北歐國家的學校也備受讚譽。

But in many parts of the world there are often huge barriers to getting children into the classroom at all.

但是，在世界許多地方，讓孩子們走進課堂往往存在巨大障礙。

It's cruel not to open schools for girls.

不為女孩開設學校是很殘忍的。

We have as much right to learn as boys do.

我們和男孩一樣有學習的權利。

It would be cruel of the Taliban not to allow us to return to our schools.

如果塔利班不允許我們返回學校，那就太殘忍了。

So what does the best school system in the world look like, and which country educates its children the best?

那麼，世界上最好的學校系統是什麼樣的，哪個國家的兒童教育最好？

With me today in The Global Story studio is Sean Cochran.

今天來到《全球故事》演播室的是肖恩-科克倫（Sean Cochran）。

Some of you will have heard Sean and I talking already on The Global Story about the UK royal family as he's one of our royal correspondents.

肖恩是我們的王室記者之一，你們中的一些人可能已經在《環球故事》節目中聽到過我和他談論英國王室。

But before that, Sean, for many years, you were one of our education correspondents and you led BBC News coverage of what we're going to talk about today, which is global education.

但在此之前，肖恩，多年來，你一直是我們的教育記者之一，你上司了BBC新聞對我們今天要談的全球教育的報道。

Also joining us today is John Gerram, who is a professor at the University of College London's Institute of Education.

今天加入我們的還有約翰-格拉姆，他是倫敦大學學院教育研究所的教授。

And John has dug deep into the global data about different education systems around the world and is here to reveal all.

約翰深入研究了有關全球不同教育體系的全球數據，並在此為您揭示一切。

So we want to talk about which country has the best education system in the world, if we can say that.

是以，我們想談談哪個國家擁有世界上最好的教育體系，如果可以這麼說的話。

What measures are there, Sean, to judge that?

肖恩，有什麼措施來判斷這一點？

Well, I suppose the most commonly used measure would be what's known as the PISA tests.

我想，最常用的衡量標準應該是所謂的 PISA 測試。

And these tests taken by children at the age of 15 in a number of countries around the world, not all the countries, but 80 in the last round.

這些測試是由世界上一些國家（不是所有國家，但上一輪有 80 個國家）的 15 歲兒童進行的。

And since the year 2000, results have been published ranking education systems in terms of their level of achievement.

自 2000 年以來，教育系統的成績排名結果陸續公佈。

And the tests are in key areas of reading, maths and science.

這些測試涉及閱讀、數學和科學等關鍵領域。

When they were introduced, first of all, that was a very contentious idea, because people said, how can you possibly compare big countries?

在引入這些指標時，首先，這是一個非常有爭議的想法，因為人們說，你怎麼可能比較大國？

How can you compare America to Luxembourg or to parts of China or whatever?

你怎麼能把美國與盧森堡、中國部分地區或其他地方相提並論呢？

And people would say they're very different systems, different cultures, different levels of income.

人們會說，它們是截然不同的系統、不同的文化、不同的收入水平。

But the people who introduced these tests weren't from education.

但引入這些測試的人並非來自教育界。

It was the OECD, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development.

它就是經濟合作與發展組織（OECD）。

And they approached education the way they might look at GDP or look at measuring inflation.

他們用看待國內生產總值或衡量通貨膨脹的方式來對待教育。

And it was a very different way of looking at it.

And they got people to take these tests, often against a great deal of local resistance, and then compared them.

他們讓人們參加這些測試，通常會遇到當地人的強烈抵制，然後進行比較。

And they have produced, for the last couple of decades, this huge amount of data that allows people in one country to look at how they compare to others.

在過去的幾十年裡，這些機構提供了大量的數據，使一個國家的人們能夠了解他們與其他國家的比較情況。

And I suppose their big finding often is that what we think of as being our education system isn't inevitable.

我想他們的重大發現往往是，我們所認為的教育系統並非不可避免。

你可以做得很好，也可以做得很差。

Some people do better at different things.

Girls and boys might do differently, different groups.

女孩和男孩、不同的群體可能會有不同的表現。

And I think this has just cast a big light by not letting education systems just look internally, but also to look at other comparisons.

我認為，這不僅給教育系統帶來了巨大的啟示，使其不能只關注內部，還要關注其他方面的比較。

So John, which countries do do well in these piece of tests?

那麼約翰，哪些國家在這些測試中表現出色？

So the ones that perform consistently well over time and across the different studies are the East Asian countries.

是以，隨著時間的推移和不同研究的進行，表現始終良好的是東亞國家。

So typical examples include South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong.

典型的例子包括韓國、新加坡和香港。

他們總是始終如一地表現出色。

There's some that do particularly well in Pisa.

有些產品在比薩的表現尤為出色。

On top of that, Finland was a hot topic for a long time, although its performance has declined recently.

此外，芬蘭在很長一段時間內都是熱門話題，儘管最近其表現有所下滑。

Estonia is a country that does very well now in Pisa, and Canada to some extent also.

愛沙尼亞現在在比薩的成績非常好，加拿大在某種程度上也是如此。

And the countries that don't do so well, Sean?

那些表現不佳的國家呢，肖恩？

Well, they tend to be countries which, I suppose, are poorer countries.

我想，這些國家往往是比較貧窮的國家。

You'll find in terms of countries that participate, maybe in parts of South America, Central America, some of the Arab world too.

你會發現，參與的國家可能包括南美洲、中美洲的部分國家，也包括阿拉伯世界的一些國家。

Countries in sub-Saharan Africa don't take part, and quite a lot of Asian countries don't take part either.

撒哈拉以南非洲國家沒有參加，相當多的亞洲國家也沒有參加。

But perhaps what's interesting about doing badly is that often big European countries, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and to an extent the education systems within the UK, aren't that brilliant really.

不過，也許讓人感到有趣的是，歐洲大國，如法國、德國、意大利、西班牙，以及在某種程度上英國的教育系統，其實並沒有那麼出色。

And as John suggested, the interesting bit is they have a lot of history, a lot of money, a lot of development behind them, but they're being outpaced and outperformed by these fast-upcoming countries, Singapore or Estonia or Taiwan or those sort of places, which we don't historically think of as being economic rivals.

正如約翰所說，有趣的一點是，他們背後有很多歷史、很多資金、很多發展，但他們正在被這些快速發展的國家超越，新加坡、愛沙尼亞、臺灣或諸如此類的地方，我們歷來不認為它們是經濟上的競爭對手。

But I suppose the argument for the Pisa test is if you want to have a knowledge economy, an economy based on skills, this is how you measure it.

但我認為，支持比薩測試的理由是，如果你想擁有一個知識經濟，一個以技能為基礎的經濟，這就是你衡量它的方法。

And those other countries are outpacing us at the moment.

而這些其他國家目前正在超越我們。

So I think that's the interesting comparison.

是以，我認為這是一個有趣的比較。

That raises the issue, though, and I've done interviews around Pisa and these tests for years, about what a good education actually is, John, because there'll be those that say that, you know, how do you measure that?

不過，這也提出了一個問題，多年來我一直在圍繞比薩和這些測試進行採訪，約翰，到底什麼才是好的教育，因為有人會說，你知道，你怎麼衡量呢？

How do you actually define what a good education is when you think about some of these East Asian countries and what the students go through, how hard they have to work, how Yeah.

當你想到一些東亞國家，想到學生們所經歷的一切，想到他們必須付出的艱辛，想到他們是如何努力的，你究竟如何定義良好的教育？

So as kind of Sean was saying, they've really focused on the academic side in their kind of history, maths, reading and science.

是以，正如肖恩所說，他們非常注重歷史、數學、閱讀和科學方面的學術研究。

But you're right, kind of a good education is a much broader thing.

但你說得沒錯，良好的教育是一個更廣泛的問題。

And we as parents or whatever, kind of want a lot more for our children than just to be good at those academic kind of side of things.

而我們作為父母或其他什麼人，對孩子的要求遠不止學習成績好那麼簡單。

In fairness, the OECD in recent years have tried to move the dial a little bit and measure more of these kind of softer skills.

平心而論，經合組織近年來一直在嘗試稍作調整，以衡量更多此類較軟技能。

So in the latest round of Pisa, they tried to introduce a creativity test.

是以，在最新一輪的比薩競賽中，他們試圖引入一項創造力測試。

How well that worked or not, I think, is open to debate, but they are kind of live to that issue.

至於效果如何，我認為還有待商榷，但他們在這個問題上是活生生的。

And as part of Pisa, they do kind of conduct this big questionnaire exercise as well, where they capture things like kids' wellbeing and how confident they are.

作為比薩計劃的一部分，他們還進行了大規模的問卷調查，瞭解孩子們的健康狀況和自信程度。

So that does become part of it, but it doesn't often kind of become the headline.

是以，這的確是其中的一部分，但並不經常成為頭條新聞。

Sean, some countries take these Pisa rankings incredibly seriously.

肖恩，有些國家對比薩排名非常重視。

And how do they think that a better education system is going to affect even the economic outcomes of the country that they're running?

他們認為一個更好的教育系統會如何影響他們所管理的國家的經濟成果？

Well, I suppose there are two ends of that scale, the countries who might think they're doing well and then get a bit of a shock.

嗯，我想這有兩個極端，有些國家可能認為自己做得很好，但隨後就會受到打擊。

I mean, Germany, people talk about Pisa shock in Germany because they thought they were very good.

我的意思是，在德國，人們談論比薩震撼，因為他們認為比薩非常好。

But there was also that complacency and they got the Pisa results first time around and realized, in fact, they're pretty awful.

但是，他們也有自滿情緒，他們第一次拿到比薩賽的成績時就意識到，事實上，他們的成績非常糟糕。

And that turned into quite a political scandal.

而這也演變成了一樁政治醜聞。

Our schools aren't as good as we thought they were.

我們的學校並沒有我們想象的那麼好。

The other end of the spectrum, there are countries who see education as their way out, as some individuals always have in their lives.

在另一端，有些國家視教育為出路，就像有些人在生活中總是這樣。

In the 1960s, Singapore would have been one of the poorest countries in the world.

20 世紀 60 年代，新加坡是世界上最貧窮的國家之一。

We're in a country with very low levels of literacy, and it deliberately invested in education to make itself a high-skills, high-income country.

我們所在的國家識字率很低，但它有意投資教育，使自己成為一個高技能、高收入的國家。

Our main responsibility is to nurture the students in such a way that they will be ready for the future, to become productive citizens of tomorrow.

我們的主要責任是培養學生，讓他們為未來做好準備，成為未來有用的公民。

And we all know that the future is going to become more complex, much more uncertain, much more unpredictable, much more ambiguous.

我們都知道，未來將變得更加複雜、更加不確定、更加不可預測、更加模稜兩可。

I suppose it's back to the idea that economists might say, if you want to see the economy of the future, look at the classrooms of today.

我想，這又回到了經濟學家可能會說的 "如果你想看到未來的經濟，那就看看今天的教室"。

這也是一個巨大的經濟驅動力。

And if you look at the sort of jobs which now are in demand and the jobs which are well-paid and where economies want to place themselves in the economic food chain, education and education skills more broadly are absolutely central to that.

如果你看一下現在需求的工作種類、高薪工作以及經濟體希望在經濟食物鏈中的位置，教育和更廣泛的教育技能絕對是其中的核心。

But countries which have chosen to invest in education and skills, who consciously decided to make this a priority, will see the economic reward.

但是，那些選擇投資教育和技能的國家，那些有意識地決定將其作為優先事項的國家，將會看到經濟回報。

So let's look then at what works, because we've looked at which countries are considered to have successful education systems.

那麼，讓我們來看看哪些方法行之有效，因為我們已經研究過哪些國家的教育系統被認為是成功的。

Why, Sean, does Singapore have something in common with Estonia?

肖恩，為什麼新加坡與愛沙尼亞有共同之處？

These high-achieving countries, what do they have in common?

這些成績優異的國家有什麼共同點？

Well, a long time ago, I remember trying to do an identikit picture of what a successful PISA country would look like.

很久以前，我記得自己曾試圖描繪一個成功的 PISA 國家是什麼樣的。

And there are sort of philosophical questions about equality, countries which make sure that all their pupils get through a certain level of education to a certain standard, regardless of their background, do well.

還有一些關於平等的哲學問題，那些確保所有學生都能通過一定程度的教育達到一定標準的國家，無論他們的背景如何，都做得很好。

If you are teaching them by a different level of abilities, then you are segregating them.

如果你按照不同的能力水準來教他們，那麼你就是在隔離他們。

And we don't want to segregate any people in the world.

我們不想隔離世界上的任何人。

Why we are doing that in the schools, that's my personal opinion.

為什麼要在學校這樣做，這是我的個人觀點。

This is one of the main things why Estonia is successful.

這是愛沙尼亞成功的主要原因之一。

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哪個國家擁有世界上最好的教育？- 全球故事》播客，BBC 全球服務 (Which country has the best education in the world? - The Global Story podcast, BBC World Service)

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extraordinary

massive

inevitable