Name: Could Ukraine be benefitting from the Iran war? | DW News
Uploaded: 2026-03-30T16:58:13.000Z
Duration: 17 min 5 s

Could the war in Iran benefit Ukraine in its battle against Russia?

伊朗的戰爭會不會對烏克蘭對抗俄羅斯的戰事有利？

Since Moscow launched its full-scale invasion in 2022, Ukraine has become expert at fending off drones fired by Russia but designed in Iran.

自從莫斯科在2022年全面入侵以來，烏克蘭已經很擅長抵擋俄羅斯發射、但由伊朗設計的無人機。

分詞構句

Known as Shaheds, they're a key weapon in Russia's war of aggression.

這些無人機被稱為Shaheds，是俄羅斯侵略戰爭中的重要武器。

Over the last few days, Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been touring the Gulf States, meeting leaders who are themselves now facing drone attacks from Iran.

過去幾天，烏克蘭總統澤倫斯基 (Volodymyr Zelenskyy) 一直在拜訪海灣國家，會見那些自己也正遭受伊朗無人機攻擊的領導人。

He has discussed a security pact with Jordan's King Abdullah and has signed defense agreements with Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and

他與約旦的阿卜杜拉國王 (King Abdullah) 討論了安全協議，並與卡達、沙烏地阿拉伯和

阿拉伯聯合大公國簽署了國防協議。

Kyiv is offering to share its air defense expertise and drone technology.

基輔提議分享其防空專業知識和無人機技術。

Zelenskyy is also looking for support in the Middle East to cover Ukraine's budget deficit and to fund weapons production.

澤倫斯基 (Volodymyr Zelenskyy) 也尋求中東地區的支持，以彌補烏克蘭的預算赤字並資助武器生產。

Anatoly Motkin says the Iran war has, quote, "shown a spotlight on Ukraine's emergence as a drone superpower." He's the president of the Strategist Center for a New Economy, a nonprofit based in the US that aims to develop knowledge-driven economies in the Eurasian region.

Anatoly Motkin 表示，伊朗戰爭「凸顯了烏克蘭作為無人機超級大國的崛起」。他是Strategist Center for a New Economy的總裁，該組織是一個總部位於美國的非營利組織，旨在發展歐亞地區的知識驅動型經濟。

Ukraine is now helping Gulf countries defend themselves against Iranian drone attacks.

烏克蘭現在正協助海灣國家防禦伊朗的無人機攻擊。

How is it doing that, considering it has its own war to fight?

考量到烏克蘭自己也在打仗，它是如何做到的呢？

First, thank you first for inviting me here today.

首先，非常感謝您今天邀請我。

And it's true that Ukraine has its own war to fight today.

的確，烏克蘭今天有自己的戰爭要打。

But also, Ukraine, I think, has today a unique data and expertise on how to respond to challenges like Shahed drones that you have just mentioned, and

但同時，我認為烏克蘭今天擁有獨特的數據和專業知識，知道如何應對您剛才提到的 Shahed 無人機這類挑戰，而且

to do it not with the overexpensive tools like THAAD or Patriot missiles.

不是用像 THAAD 或愛國者飛彈那樣過於昂貴的工具來應對。

And I think that's the main experience that Ukraine could deliver to the Gulf.

我認為這就是烏克蘭可以提供給海灣國家的主要經驗。

We should remember that Ukraine, even before the war, we're talking about an ecosystem that consists of over 300,000 engineers, high-level engineers, who provide digital services without all Fortune 500 companies without exception.

我們應該記得，即使在戰爭爆發前，烏克蘭就擁有一個由超過 30 萬名高階工程師組成的生態系統，他們為所有財星 500 大企業提供數位服務，無一例外。

And just the full-scale invasion forced most of those companies to start developing dual technologies or defense technologies.

而全面入侵迫使大多數這些公司開始開發雙重用途技術或國防技術。

So it's not that people who used to work in other different domains decided because of the invasion to become engineers and to start developing those defense technologies.

所以並不是那些原本在其他不同領域工作的人，因為入侵而決定成為工程師並開始開發這些國防技術。

They just had to develop new technologies to defend themselves.

他們只是必須開發新技術來保護自己。

Now, during his trip to the Gulf, President Zelenskyy, it's true, the countries that you mentioned are Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Emirates, but

現在，總統澤倫斯基 (Volodymyr Zelenskyy) 出訪海灣國家，你提到的國家確實是卡達、沙烏地阿拉伯、約旦、阿拉伯聯合大公國，但

So these are five countries that are actually in this loop.

所以這五個國家其實都在這個循環裡。

And I think that today, those countries in the Gulf, they experience exactly what Ukraine experiences for the last four years.

我認為，今天這些海灣國家所經歷的，正是烏克蘭過去四年所經歷的。

They need to defend their strategic infrastructure, and

他們需要保護自己的戰略基礎設施，而且

they need to defend not only the military bases, as Iran claims, but

他們不僅需要保護軍事基地，正如伊朗聲稱的那樣，還需要

also the civil population there, both the local citizens and also the visitors to those countries.

保護當地的平民，包括當地公民和這些國家的訪客。

And for some countries like Qatar and Emirates, the non-residents are actually the majority, right?

對於卡達和阿拉伯聯合大公國等國家來說，非居民實際上佔了多數，對吧？

I think that Ukraine could deliver this specific experience.

我認為，烏克蘭可以提供這種特定的經驗。

And we saw, I think, during the last months many footages about the interceptor drones developed in Ukraine.

而且我們看到，我想，在過去幾個月裡，有很多關於烏克蘭開發的攔截無人機的畫面。

So I heard yesterday the CEO of Rheinmetall, Mr.

所以昨天我聽到 Rheinmetall 的執行長，

Papperger, saying that the Ukrainian tech industry is mainly housewives with 3D printers.

Papperger 先生說，烏克蘭的科技產業主要是家庭主婦用 3D 列印機。

It's true that many components are printed on 3D printers, but

很多零件確實是用 3D 列印機印的，但是

the way how Ukrainians integrate their advanced technologies with the new-developed technologies, and

烏克蘭人將他們先進的技術與新開發的技術整合的方式，還有

also how they reshape those technologies on a daily basis because, unfortunately for Ukraine, but

他們每天如何重塑這些技術，因為，對烏克蘭來說很不幸，但是

It's also Russians developing their new technologies.

俄羅斯人也在開發他們的新技術。

So it's actually the cat and the mouse, right?

所以這其實是貓捉老鼠的遊戲，對吧？

So seeing what we see on the battlefield in Ukraine, we'll also see that Russians provide their adjusted drones.

所以我們在烏克蘭戰場上看到什麼，也會看到俄羅斯人提供他們調整過的無人機。

So in the first stage, at the very beginning, Iran was providing Shahed drones to Russia.

所以第一階段，一開始，伊朗向俄羅斯提供了 Shahed 無人機。

Now, in Tatarstan, Russians are developing their new adopted versions of Shahed drones, and

現在，在韃靼斯坦，俄羅斯人正在開發他們新採用的 Shahed 無人機版本，而且

他們將這些無人機提供給伊朗。

So Ukraine is providing their new technologies to the Gulf.

所以烏克蘭正在向海灣國家提供他們的新技術。

We saw that the Ukrainian tech sector and the Gulf countries started developing their, let's say, collaboration in the tech sector several years ago, even before the war.

我們看到烏克蘭的科技產業和海灣國家，在幾年前，甚至在戰爭爆發前，就開始發展他們的，可以說是科技產業的合作。

And I'm happy that, despite the war, Ukraine has an ability also to send their experts.

而且我很高興，儘管有戰爭，烏克蘭仍有能力派遣他們的專家。

And we know that some of the Ukrainian experts already are deployed in the Gulf States to assist the local military to adopt their interceptor system and ability to the nowadays needs.

而且我們知道，有些烏克蘭專家已經派駐到海灣國家，協助當地軍隊採用他們的攔截系統，並因應現今的需求。

Motkin, you've made so many important points that I just want to take the time and go through some of them one by one.

Motkin，您提出了好多重要的觀點，我想花點時間一個一個來細談。

Ukraine was not always a superpower at blocking drone attacks.

烏克蘭並非一開始就能有效攔截無人機攻擊。

Can you walk us through how they've developed this defense expertise?

您能跟我們聊聊他們是如何發展出這種防禦專長的嗎？

So as I started, Ukraine was always a technologically or engineering-advanced country.

所以就像我一開始說的，烏克蘭一直以來都是一個在技術或工程上很先進的國家。

Even before the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukrainian engineers were the main, let's say, engineering force or one of the main engineering forces in the Soviet Union.

甚至在蘇聯解體之前，烏克蘭工程師就是蘇聯主要的，可以說是工程力量，或是主要工程力量之一。

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukrainian engineers started providing digital solutions to American companies and European companies.

蘇聯解體後，烏克蘭工程師開始為美國和歐洲公司提供數位解決方案。

And after some time, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, Ukrainians also started developing their successful product companies.

然後大約在十年前、十五年前，烏克蘭人也開始發展他們成功的產品公司。

Today, we have about 1,000 unicorns made in Ukraine.

今天，我們有大約一千家「烏克蘭製造」的獨角獸企業。

And after the full-scale invasion, Ukrainian engineers actually, it was a matter of survival, right?

所以在全面入侵之後，烏克蘭的工程師們，其實是為了生存而努力，對吧？

They started thinking how they could use their engineering thought to protect their own country.

他們開始思考如何運用他們的工程思維來保護自己的國家。

And moreover, at the very beginning of the war, the war started on the Russian side in a very not-sophisticated way, with the 20th-century missiles, 20th-century tanks, 20th-century cannons.

而且，戰爭一開始，俄羅斯方面是以一種很不先進的方式發動攻擊，使用了20世紀的飛彈、20世紀的坦克、20世紀的大砲。

And Ukraine started with Bayraktar drones that they actually purchased from Turkey.

而烏克蘭則開始使用他們從土耳其購買的Bayraktar無人機。

And that's something that actually, Russians were quite surprised.

這件事讓俄羅斯人感到相當驚訝。

And the first initial wave of the Russian offensive against Ukraine actually was blocked partially by those drones.

俄羅斯對烏克蘭的最初幾波攻勢，其實有部分被這些無人機給擋下了。

And when Ukrainians discovered this ability to use new technologies, even against what Russians were calling themselves the second army in the world, they understood that they needed to scale it up.

當烏克蘭人發現他們有能力運用新科技，甚至能對抗俄羅斯自稱的「世界第二大軍隊」時，他們就明白需要擴大應用。

And then the government created the demand.

The Ministry of Digital Transformation of Ukraine and the person his name is Mikhail Fedorov.

烏克蘭數位轉型部，以及他的名字是Mikhail Fedorov。

He used to be Minister of Digital Development of Ukraine.

他以前是烏克蘭數位發展部長。

And several months ago, he was appointed to become Minister of Defense of Ukraine.

幾個月前，他被任命為烏克蘭國防部長。

So he was the mastermind behind this initiative to create incentives for the private sector and not for the government or the governmental production plans to develop whatever they think is the right thing to do or the right products to do.

所以他是這項計畫的幕後推手，鼓勵私人企業而非政府或官方生產計畫來開發他們認為正確的產品。

Moreover, to avoid the bureaucracy, the tech sector in Ukraine is still and from the scratch, they're communicating directly with the brigades, those who are fighting at the front line.

而且，為了避免官僚主義，烏克蘭的科技界仍然是從零開始，直接與前線的部隊溝通。

So the speed that they get the feedback from the fighters is literally sometimes hours, sometimes days, definitely not weeks and months.

所以他們從戰士那裡獲得回饋的速度，有時候是幾小時，有時候是幾天，絕對不是幾週或幾個月。

And that's how they actually are able to adjust and to adopt their products on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, to the needs of the combat units.

這就是他們能夠每天、每週根據作戰單位的需求來調整和採用他們產品的方式。

And what I actually understand from the tech guys there in Ukraine and also from the military guys there, the lifecycle of any technological solution on the battlefield is maximum four months.

我從烏克蘭的科技人員和軍事人員那裡瞭解到，戰場上任何技術解決方案的生命週期最長是四個月。

So it takes you to plan it four months in a traditional way, as it has been done in the 20th century.

所以，用傳統的20世紀方式來規劃，需要花費四個月的時間。

It's not relevant at the day it's been produced.

等到生產出來的那一天，就已經不適用了。

You've written that Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, and

您寫道，沙烏地阿拉伯、阿拉伯聯合大公國、卡達以及

their Gulf region neighbors have been studying the Ukrainian experience.

他們海灣地區的鄰國一直在研究烏克蘭的經驗。

They could learn, first, adaptability and how to, let's say, foster the development of the new technologies, and

他們可以學到，首先，適應性以及如何，可以說，促進新技術的發展，還有

also how to make all this production line, including the adoption of the new circumstances or new data, and

還有如何建立整條生產線，包括採用新的情況或新的數據，還有

Some of the solutions that Ukrainians have, they also got from getting the first Shahed drone that was not exploded.

烏克蘭人擁有的部分解決方案，也是來自於他們獲得了第一架未爆炸的Shahed無人機。

They hacked also both software and hardware.

And they took the technology, and they knew also how to defeat those drones for the next time.

他們拿到了技術，而且他們也知道如何擊敗這些無人機，以便下次使用。

Also, they know how to work with the new advanced technologies developed by Palantir or Unreal or the most advanced AI companies in the US, how they could also manage not a single drone but swarms of drones, and

而且，他們也知道如何運用 Palantir 或 Unreal，或是美國最頂尖的 AI 公司所開發的新進技術，以及如何管理不只一架無人機，而是成群的無人機，

how it could be self-managed when they're sending those drones and not necessarily the operator should keep operating them.

並且在發送這些無人機時，它們可以自我管理，操作員不一定需要持續操控。

So I think that the first thing they could teach the Gulf, their, let's say, friends or associates or colleagues from the Gulf is actually what is the nature of the new warfare, both electronic warfare and the drone warfare.

所以我覺得他們可以教導海灣國家，我們稱之為他們的朋友、夥伴或同事，第一件事就是了解新型態戰爭的本質，包括電子戰和無人機戰。

Don't forget that Ukrainians one-handedly succeeded to make the Russian Black Sea fleet flee from the Black Sea.

別忘了，烏克蘭人單憑一己之力就成功讓俄羅斯黑海艦隊逃離了黑海。

There is no such thing anymore as a Russian Black Sea fleet.

現在已經沒有所謂的俄羅斯黑海艦隊了。

And they're doing something similar also in the Azov Sea.

他們在亞速海也做著類似的事情。

And I think that that's something that could be very useful for the Gulf States, first, how they could save lives of their soldiers and still keep fighting against regional aggression;

我認為這對海灣國家來說會非常有幫助，首先，他們如何在對抗區域侵略的同時，還能拯救阿兵哥的生命；

second, how they could protect themselves and protect the critical infrastructure in their countries based on cheap technologies.

其次，他們如何利用便宜的技術來保護自己和國家關鍵基礎設施。

Just to let you know that each missile of Patriot, it's millions of dollars.

讓你們知道，愛國者飛彈的每一枚都要數百萬美元。

Each interceptor drone that is able to take down the Russian drone is about $6,000.

而每一架能擊落俄羅斯無人機的攔截無人機，大約是 6,000 美元。