Name: 如何停止追逐社會地位？與 Alain de Botton 及 RaQuel Hopkins 進行「重新思考」！ (How to stop chasing status with Alain de Botton and RaQuel Hopkins | ReThinking with Adam Grant)
Uploaded: 2026-01-06T17:06:06.000Z
Duration: 35 min 28 s

程度副詞

If you're going to be an elitist, please could you be an elitist about the really important things, you know, which is, is someone kind, is someone nice, is their soul open, are they thoughtful?

如果你真的要當菁英主義者，拜託請在真正重要的事情上當，你知道的，像是這個人有沒有善良，有沒有 nice，他的心靈是不是開放的，他有沒有體貼？

And maybe we can afford to pass judgment, as it were, on where people are according to this scale of values.

也許我們可以負擔得起，就好像，根據這個價值觀來評判別人在哪裡。

Raquel, I think you might be our first guest co host.

Raquel，我想妳可能是我們第一位嘉賓共同主持人。

Raquel, tell me first why this bald man made the top of your list.

Raquel，先告訴我為什麼這位光頭男子會是你的首選。

I think I was reading about the intellectual elite and he spoke about how knowledge is not being used in the most effective to what effective way today.

我記得我當時在讀關於知識菁英的文章，他談到現在知識並沒有被最有效地運用。

And that really caught my attention because I thought about how information and knowledge should be used or can be used, and it's to help people live better and meaningful lives.

這點真的引起我的注意，因為我想到資訊和知識應該或可以被用來幫助人們過上更好、更有意義的生活。

And I think that that resonates with me when I talk about mental health in general.

這點讓我在談論心理健康時，很有共鳴。

And I like the whole concept of school of life and integrating wisdom back into society.

我喜歡生命學校和將智慧整合回社會的整個概念。

Your life's work just narrated back to you.

So, yes, I started the School of life together with colleagues many years ago and 15 more years ago, and the idea was to try and find a home for a word which sounds really strange, but wisdom in relation to many of life's challenges, chiefly in the emotional arena, could we try and capture some of the wisdom that's out there and diffuse it effectively?

所以，是的，我多年前和同事們一起創辦了生命學校，至今已有 15 年了，當時的想法是試圖為一個聽起來很奇怪的詞找到一個歸宿，那就是與許多生活的挑戰相關的智慧，尤其是在情緒領域，我們能否試圖捕捉一些現有的智慧並有效地傳播它？

So is there a particular lesson that you've found counterintuitive when trying to think about inculcating wisdom?

那麼，在試圖傳授智慧時，有沒有什麼特別的教訓讓你覺得違反直覺？

You know, if you embark on a relationship, let's say, and you're aware of that, the person you're with is going to be really, really imperfect.

你知道，如果你開始一段關係，假設一下，你意識到你身邊的人會非常、非常不完美。

They're going to let you down, they're going to madden you at points.

他們會讓你失望，他們會在某些時候讓你抓狂。

At some points you'll wish you never met them, and yet they may still be absolutely a really good person for you.

有些時候你會希望從來沒有遇見過他們，但他們仍然可能是非常適合你的人。

That could be a very sound basis to embark on a relationship with someone.

這可能是一個非常穩固的基礎，可以開始一段關係。

A lot of the reason why we suffer is we suffer twice, we suffer because things don't go our way, and then we suffer a second time because we think they should have done.

我們遭受痛苦的很大一部分原因是我們遭受了兩次痛苦，我們遭受痛苦是因為事情不如我們所願，然後我們遭受第二次痛苦是因為我們認為事情應該是那樣的。

And to remove certain beliefs and the inevitability of, you know, things being wonderful can really alleviate, you know, people's sense of having been singled out for punishment.

去除某些信念以及事情必然會變得美好的想法，可以真正減輕人們覺得自己被單獨挑出來懲罰的感覺。

I think so many of us are suffering inside very lonely way, thinking, what's wrong with me?

我認為我們中有這麼多人內心痛苦地感到孤獨，想著，我怎麼了？

I don't see any evidence around me for the level of self doubt.

我在我周遭看不到任何證據顯示有這麼多自我懷疑。

Anxiety, suffering, unkindness that I experience, what's gone wrong with my life.

焦慮、痛苦、不友善，這些我所經歷的，是我人生中哪裡出了問題。

And so often you just want to say to this person, welcome to the human experience.

很多時候你只想跟那個人說，歡迎來到人類的體驗。

And so we've got this notion of normality that is not normal and we suffer from it.

所以我們對常態有種看法，但那其實並不常態，而我們是以受苦。

And we think we're the only ones when we're in fact in a vast majority.

我們以為自己是唯一這樣的人，但事實上我們是絕大多數。

So we're far lonelier than we ever deserve to be because we don't really know the reality of others.

所以我們比應得的還要孤單得多，因為我們其實不知道別人的真實情況。

Even in an age that's so hyper connected and that's so big on the transfer of information, there is still an enormous mystery about what it is to be human and an enormous editing about what a decent life will inevitably involve.

即使在這個高度連結、重視資訊傳遞的時代，關於身而為人是什麼，以及有意義的生活必然包含什麼，仍然存在著巨大的謎團和大量的修飾。

You refer to this modern myth as a lot of us believe that we deserve happiness.

你把這個現代迷思稱為，我們很多人都相信自己值得快樂。

And it seems, I mean, it seems like such a generous idea.

而且這聽起來，我是說，這聽起來是個很慷慨的想法。

But you know, partly it's also the effort that's required to achieve it.

但你知道，部分原因也是達成它所需的努力。

I mean, it's like saying everybody can play the violin.

我是說，這就像說每個人都能拉小提琴。

And that's technically true, they can, but they're going to have to work very hard at it, needs to be quite lucky, et cetera.

這技術上是沒錯的，他們可以，但他們必須非常努力，而且得相當幸運等等。

So we underestimate the effort that's required.

Ilan, what you were describing as the suffering twice problem of, you know, things didn't go the way I wanted.

Ilan，你剛才說的那個「痛苦加倍」的問題，你知道，事情沒有照我想的發展。

And then I'm upset also about the fact that I'm upset when I see people fall into that trap.

然後我也為我看到別人陷入那種困境時，我竟然會感到沮喪的事實而感到沮喪。

It just seems like a self inflicted wound.

You're taking the, whatever small amount of suffering you've encountered and then you're magnifying it and choosing to suffer.

你把遇到的、不管多小的痛苦，然後你把它放大，並選擇繼續痛苦。

About your past suffering, what do you do if not everything is as beautiful as, you know, it was promised?

關於你過去的痛苦，如果一切不如預期，你會怎麼做？

會非常生氣，你知道，也很惱火。

So rage, Rage is often the result of high ideals.

所以憤怒，憤怒常常是崇高理想的結果。

And you know, if you look at the United States now, it's such a paradoxical country, wildly successful in all sorts of ways in all sorts of areas, and also widely rageful and full of disappointment and pockets of anger and fury that are sometimes hard for others to understand.

你知道，如果你看看現在的美國，它是一個多麼矛盾的國家，在各方面都取得了巨大的成功，同時也充滿了憤怒、失望，以及一些讓人難以理解的憤怒和狂怒。

I think they are part and parcel of the same thing.

我覺得它們是同一件事的兩個面向。

If you tell people everybody has the right to happiness, it's beautiful.

如果你告訴大家，每個人都有權利追求快樂，這聽起來很棒。

But boy, oh boy, you can have some trouble on Your hands as well.

但天啊，你可能會惹上大麻煩。

I mean, happiness is something that lasts for 15 minutes.

我的意思是，快樂大概只能維持十五分鐘。

Beyond that, you've got the next problem on your hands.

過了之後，下一個問題就來了。

所以，嗯，真的很棘手，非常棘手。

The statement rage is the result of high ideals is very powerful, as I think about it.

「憤怒是崇高理想的結果」這句話，我覺得很有力量。

I think you're saying it's not the ideals themselves, but it's the gap between the ideals and reality that causes the reaction.

我想你是在說，問題不在於理想本身，而是理想與現實之間的差距，才導致了這種反應。

And is the reaction rage or is it outrage?

而這種反應是憤怒，還是義憤填膺呢？

Outrage at somebody else's rage and rage at your own ideals being trampled upon.

對別人的憤怒感到憤怒，以及對自己理想被踐踏感到憤怒。

But high emotion as opposed to, you know, adaptive strategies.

但高昂的情緒，而不是，你知道的，適應性策略。

I mean, let's hear it for an unusual word, melancholy.

我想，我們來談談一個不尋常的詞，憂鬱。

It's one of my favorite words, melancholy.

這是我最喜歡的詞之一，憂鬱。

Melancholy is situated somewhere between, you know, happiness and tragedy.

憂鬱介於，你知道的，快樂和悲劇之間。

感覺就像是悲傷，已經被磨損了。

You know, it's like, I'm aware that life's got a lot of suffering in it, but I can smile as well.

你知道的，就像，我意識到生活充滿痛苦，但我也能微笑。

I've certainly, you know, and No1Over40 is going to escape that, or at least that possibility.

我確實，你知道的，而且 No1Over40 也無法倖免，或者至少是這種可能性。

Yeah, so one of the big questions is, what are you going to do with your grief?

對，所以一個大問題是，你要如何處理你的悲傷？

How do we mourn properly when things go wrong?

當事情出了差錯，我們要如何好好地哀悼？

When you say melancholy, I can't help but think of Lincoln, who was probably the most famous, quote, unquote, victim of it.

當你說到憂鬱，我忍不住想到林肯，他大概是最有名的、引號引號，憂鬱的受害者。

And it was clearly, if you read his journal entries, it was very unpleasant for him.

顯然，如果你讀他的日記，對他來說非常不好受。

He did not enjoy the state of melancholy, but he did extraordinary things for his country and the world.

他並不享受憂鬱的狀態，但他為他的國家和世界做了非凡的事。

And I can only imagine if, you know, if Lincoln was.

我只能想像，如果你知道，如果林肯。

Raquel, pathologizing, as you describe his melancholy and spending several hours a day in therapy, that might have inhibited his ability to be of service as he was.

Raquel，像你描述的那樣，病理化他的憂鬱，一天花好幾個小時做治療，那可能會抑制他為大家服務的能力。

如何停止追逐社會地位？與 Alain de Botton 及 RaQuel Hopkins 進行「重新思考」！ (How to stop chasing status with Alain de Botton and RaQuel Hopkins | ReThinking with Adam Grant)

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如何停止追逐社會地位？與 Alain de Botton 及 RaQuel Hopkins 進行「重新思考」！ (How to stop chasing status with Alain de Botton and RaQuel Hopkins | ReThinking with Adam Grant)

anxiety

mindset

sophisticated

mental