Name: 唐納德-特朗普是否仍對烏俄和談感興趣？| 英國廣播公司新聞廣播 (Is Donald Trump still interested in Ukraine-Russia peace talks? | BBC Newscast)
Uploaded: 2025-04-12T09:46:34.000Z
Duration: 35 min 40 s

All week, the world has been talking about a trade war, but in Ukraine, a real war rages on.

整個星期，全世界都在談論貿易戰，但在烏克蘭，一場真正的戰爭仍在繼續。

That's what we're going to discuss on this episode of Newscast.

這就是我們本期《新聞播報》要討論的話題。

你好，我是演播室裡的詹姆斯。

And in the second half of this episode, we're going to be talking about whether the UK government is going to step in to rescue the British steel industry to nationalise it potentially.

在本期節目的後半部分，我們將討論英國政府是否會介入拯救英國鋼鐵業，並可能將其國有化。

But right now, remember Ukraine, we're going to go back to that.

但現在，請記住烏克蘭，我們要回到這一點。

And we have on the line from Kyiv, our very own Ukraine correspondent, James Waterhouse.

我們的烏克蘭記者詹姆斯-沃特豪斯（James Waterhouse）正在基輔連線。

And John is a former defence attaché to Moscow from the UK, and also Kyiv, and now associate fellow at Chatham House.

約翰曾是英國駐莫斯科和基輔的國防武官，現在是查塔姆研究所的副研究員。

As I say, this has been the week of tariffs.

We haven't actually talked about Ukraine all that much this week, and the peace talks and the so-called coalition of the willing of these Western nations, particularly European nations.

本週，我們實際上並沒有過多地討論烏克蘭問題、和談以及這些西方國家（尤其是歐洲國家）所謂的 "意願聯盟"。

But defence ministers are meeting today in Brussels.

但國防部長們今天將在布魯塞爾舉行會議。

And James, what is your take on whether we have made a mistake here by just ignoring something really significant that's been happening this week, because we've been completely swept away by tariffs?

詹姆斯，你如何看待我們因為完全被關稅衝昏了頭腦而忽略了本週發生的一些非常重要的事情，這是否是一個錯誤？

Well, James, I'm going to argue as a Ukraine correspondent that Ukraine should be on the news every day.

好吧，詹姆斯，作為一名烏克蘭記者，我想說的是，烏克蘭應該每天都上新聞。

But I think the story now from here in Kyiv is one that isn't really changing.

但我認為，現在基輔發生的故事並沒有真正改變。

But it's the way it's not changing, which is the story, if that makes sense.

但故事的關鍵在於它沒有改變的方式，如果這能說得通的話。

Because you have these overtures of peace.

You have the meeting of this so-called coalition of the willing.

你們召開了所謂的 "意願聯盟 "會議。

You have this American energy deal as it tries to get a cut of Ukraine's future wealth in return for military aid in the future, which is continuing to look less favourable to Kyiv.

美國試圖從烏克蘭未來的財富中分一杯羹，以換取未來的軍事援助，而這一能源交易對基輔越來越不利。

And all the while, you've got tens of thousands of Russian troops, says President Zelensky, says the head of his armed forces, gathering in Russia's Western Kursk region.

澤連斯基總統說，與此同時，數以萬計的俄羅斯軍隊正在俄羅斯西部庫爾斯克地區集結。

And it seems, they say, that Russia has started its spring offensive with the hardening of the ground, the more favourable conditions, although you wouldn't know it now, I'm surrounded by snow.

他們說，隨著地面的硬化和條件的改善，俄羅斯似乎已經開始了春季攻勢，雖然你現在還不知道，我周圍都是雪。

So in that sense, and this is what Ukraine argues, nothing has changed.

是以，從這個意義上說，烏克蘭認為，一切都沒有改變。

Russia is still pursuing its original objective of trying to take as much of Ukraine as possible.

俄羅斯仍在追求其最初的目標，即儘可能多地佔領烏克蘭。

And that is despite America continuing to spearhead these ceasefire efforts.

儘管美國繼續帶頭進行這些停火努力。

What's your assessment about those ceasefire efforts, John?

你對這些停火努力有何評價，約翰？

I think the momentum we saw in February, March has sort of waned slightly, especially as the White House has got consumed by tariffs.

我認為，我們在 2 月和 3 月看到的勢頭已經略有減弱，尤其是白宮被關稅所困擾。

And Siv Witkoff has been diverted to speak to Iran.

西夫-維特科夫（Siv Witkoff）被轉去與伊朗通話。

You know, we had a series of meetings going backwards and forth, but it's been very little since the...

你知道，我們舉行了一系列會議，但自從......

He's the special envoy for Donald Trump, who previously had not really any diplomatic experience at all.

他是唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）的特使，而此前他其實根本沒有任何外交經驗。

Well, he had no diplomatic experience whatsoever.

And what's interesting, actually, is how he's been used over the sort of serial professionals in the State Department and perhaps at the cost of Mr Rubio, the Secretary of State for the United States.

事實上，有趣的是，他是如何被國務院的一系列專業人士所利用的，也許是以美國國務卿盧比奧先生為代價的。

So I think there has been a sort of hiatus of activity.

是以，我認為活動出現了某種停滯。

There was lots of momentum, then a sort of gap.

勢頭很猛，然後出現了某種間隙。

And who knows what's going on in the background.

But as James says, I think Ukraine does matter.

但正如詹姆斯所說，我認為烏克蘭確實很重要。

I think that Russia is trying to press forward to try and maximise its gains before you ceasefire.

我認為俄羅斯正試圖向前推進，試圖在停火前最大限度地擴大戰果。

But I think we were a long way away from where the ceasefire proposal was maybe a month ago, unconditional ceasefire, then it was broken down to land, sea and air, and then seeing what the ceasefire hasn't held at all.

但我認為，我們離一個月前的停火建議還有很長的路要走，無條件停火，然後再細分為陸海空，現在看來，停火根本沒有實現。

So I think the path to a ceasefire, and then even beyond that to peace talks and peace agreement is long, twisty and hard to discern at present.

是以，我認為通向停火，甚至通向停火後的和談與和平協議的道路是漫長而曲折的，目前還很難辨別。

Yeah, and the man walking that path is Volodymyr Zelensky, the leader of Ukraine.

沒錯，走在這條路上的人就是烏克蘭領導人沃洛德梅爾-澤連斯基。

And James, you've got a really interesting profile and different.

詹姆斯，你的個人資料非常有趣，而且與眾不同。

I've read lots of profiles of Zelensky, but this one was really interesting because you were charting how he has changed over time or in some ways not changed.

我讀過很多澤倫斯基的簡介，但這篇非常有趣，因為你描繪了他隨著時間的推移是如何變化的，或者在某些方面是如何不變的。

And you were suggesting that some people think that's maybe been a problem.

你的意思是，有些人認為這可能是個問題。

Just would you outline what you're saying in it, James, for us?

詹姆斯，你能為我們概述一下你在其中說了些什麼嗎？

Yeah, I mean, President Zelensky's path from comedian, primetime comedian, to wartime president is well documented.

是啊，我是說，澤倫斯基總統 從喜劇演員，黃金時段的喜劇演員 到戰時總統的經歷是有據可查的。

I go to countless briefings here in Kyiv.

我在基輔參加了無數次簡報會。

You look at the things he says on the record or off the record.

你看看他在記錄上或記錄外說的話。

And I think we're seeing him go through another transformation from wartime leader, a president who banged the drum and said, we're going to fight for as long as it takes, and you need to give me as much military aid as possible for the future of my country.

我認為，我們看到他正在經歷從戰時領導人到總統的又一次轉變，他敲鑼打鼓地說，我們要打多久就打多久，為了國家的未來，你們需要給我儘可能多的軍事援助。

That kind of messaging, his critics say, has impaired him with a Donald Trump administration.

責備他的人說，這種資訊傳遞方式損害了他與唐納德-特朗普政府的關係。

There is a growing fatigue when it comes to Russia's war in Ukraine, a fatigue that people here feel.

談到俄羅斯在烏克蘭的戰爭，這裡的人們越來越感到疲勞。

You can hear the sirens behind me to this day.

至今你還能聽到我身後的警笛聲。

And so the feeling is, is that he has to change and become a negotiator.

是以，人們的感覺是，他必須改變，成為一個談判者。

And I think we're starting to see that now.

我想我們現在已經開始看到這一點了。

We're seeing him dance to Donald Trump's tune, voicing his gratitude for America's continued help, but also he's having to stand up for the interests of his country as well.

我們看到他在唐納德-特朗普的調子下翩翩起舞，對美國的持續幫助表示感謝，但同時他也不得不為自己國家的利益挺身而出。

So we're seeing a lot of background negotiation.

是以，我們看到了很多背景談判。

But of course, he's still fighting this war, as you can hear.

當然，正如你們聽到的，他仍在戰鬥。

And I think I sort of reflected on this transformation we're seeing as to how much of a more authoritative figure he is in Ukraine.

我想我對我們看到的這種轉變有所反思，他在烏克蘭是一個多麼有權威的人物。

He casts a much more lonely figure internationally.

And I think, you know, in times of war, power is concentrated on very few people.

我認為，你知道，在戰爭時期，權力集中在極少數人身上。

And his critics say that is a bad thing in some respects because his will won't be bent.

責備他的人說，這在某些方面是件壞事，因為他的意志不會被屈服。

But ultimately, he is going to have to bend to Donald Trump's vision for peace.

但最終，他將不得不屈服於唐納德-特朗普的和平願景。

We've got a security guy that will let us know if we do.

我們有一個安保人員，如果我們這麼做了，他會通知我們的。

There are different levels of air raid sirens.

Sometimes it's a Russian jet that takes off inside Russia.

有時是一架俄羅斯飛機在俄羅斯境內起飛。

Sometimes it's the threat of drones flying in from occupied territory across the Russian border, or there's a ballistic missile threat.

有時是無人機從俄羅斯邊境佔領區飛來的威脅，或者是彈道導彈的威脅。

This is just the way of Ukrainian life, to be honest with you.

老實說，這就是烏克蘭人的生活方式。

You know, the air defences, there were six ballistic missiles that hit here over the weekend.

你知道，在防空方面，上週末有六枚彈道導彈擊中了這裡。

And we understand that there was a, you know, the air defences can't keep every missile out.

我們知道，防空系統不可能把所有飛彈都擋在外面。

So we've got the data, the intelligence that tells us when we have to move.

是以，我們有數據，有情報告訴我們何時必須行動。

I'm aware that we're probably going to, might need to let you go in a minute.

我知道我們可能會，可能需要讓你馬上離開。

So just let me ask you one more question.

And that is, you mentioned the relationship between Volodymyr Zelensky and Donald Trump.

也就是說，你提到了沃洛德梅爾-澤連斯基和唐納德-特朗普之間的關係。

And you mentioned, I think, essentially that from, in many respects, the Ukrainian leader was demanding things, and maybe he wasn't as good at being diplomatic in his dance around Donald Trump.

你提到，我認為，從本質上講，烏克蘭領導人在很多方面都要求很高，也許他在與唐納德-特朗普周旋時並不擅長外交辭令。

I mean, I was struck reading it about how far back that antipathy on Trump's side goes, you know, arguably right back to the point where when he was running for re-election after his first term, Donald Trump, and he was trying to get Zelensky to investigate his rival Joe Biden's son, and Zelensky wouldn't do so.

我的意思是，我讀到這篇文章時感到很震驚，因為特朗普方面的反感情緒可以追溯到很久以前，可以說是追溯到唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）第一任期結束後競選連任時，他試圖讓澤倫斯基（Zelensky）調查他的競爭對手喬-拜登（Joe Biden）的兒子，但澤倫斯基不願意這麼做。

I mean, there's a bit of that, and then there's a bit of just his general, you know, attraction in Donald Trump towards autocrats, and particularly Volodymyr Putin, who, you know, he's never called him a dictator, but he's called Zelensky a dictator.

我的意思是，有一點是這樣的，還有一點只是他的一般，你知道，唐納德-特朗普對獨裁者的吸引力，特別是沃洛德梅爾-普京，你知道，他從未稱他為獨裁者，但他稱澤連斯基為獨裁者。

How important is repairing that relationship now for the Ukrainian people?

現在修復這種關係對烏克蘭人民有多重要？

And you're right, there is a path to this point.

你說得對，有一條路可以通向這一點。

You know, I think in more recent times, when we saw Zelensky and Trump stand outside Trump Tower in September last year, when Trump was the Republican nominee, and their body language was awkward.

你知道，我認為在最近，當我們看到澤倫斯基和特朗普去年9月站在特朗普大廈外時，當時特朗普還是共和黨提名人，他們的肢體語言很尷尬。