So let's put it like this.

那我們就這樣說吧。

This is basically a talk about not talking.

這基本上是一場關於不說話的談話。

I work at a very eclectic community radio station, and we're really lucky.

我在一家兼收幷蓄的社區廣播電臺工作，我們真的很幸運。

We talk to all kinds of people.

我們與各種各樣的人交談。

Yeah, there's bands that come through.

是的，有些樂隊會過來。

That's great.

好極了

I can hang with that.

我可以接受。

But authors, read a fucking book.

但是作者們，讀讀他媽的書吧。

We've got authors coming through.

我們的作家們正在趕來。

We've got, you know, poets and drug addicts and nonprofits of every stripe and scientists, like people with job titles like Fluvial Geomorphologist, right?

我們有詩人、癮君子、各種類型的非營利組織和科學家，比如頭銜是沖積地貌學家的人，對嗎？

I don't know either.

我也不知道。

But the thing is, I have to have this conversation with them, and I want it to be good and meaningful.

但問題是，我必須和他們進行這樣的對話，而且我希望對話是美好而有意義的。

I really do, and I want to know what makes them tick.

我真的很想知道，是什麼讓他們這樣做。

The problem is, I'm not an expert in fluvial geomorphology, and the truth is, in this life, you get to be an expert in like one, maybe two things, max, okay?

問題是，我不是河流地貌學方面的專家，而事實是，人這一輩子，最多隻能在一兩件事上成為專家，好嗎？

So how do you get through this?

那麼，你是如何渡過難關的呢？

What I want to talk to you today about is how to fake your way through an interview and hopefully have a great conversation on the other side of it, okay?

我今天要跟你們說的是，如何在面試中裝腔作勢，並希望在面試的另一面能有一次精彩的對話，好嗎？

Now I did get some on-the-job training.

現在，我確實得到了一些在職培訓。

It was very sparse.

人煙稀少。

And the woman who was training me, she's sort of walking me through the building.

培訓我的那個女人，正帶著我穿過大樓。

I was going to be on the air in a week, and she's like, here's how you do this, here's how you do this.

我一週後就要上節目了，她就說，這就是你要做的，這就是你要做的。

Oh, and you're going to be interviewing people.

哦，你還要採訪別人。

And I'm like, oh, okay.

我想，哦，好吧。

I get a pen out, right?

我拿支筆出來，對嗎？

She's like, here's how you do that.

她說，這就是你要做的。

You just shut up.

你給我閉嘴

And I put the pen away.

我把筆收了起來。

She's like, you shut up.

她說，你給我閉嘴

You got that?

明白了嗎？

I got that.

我知道了

And that was 15 years ago.

而這已經是 15 年前的事了。

I still got that.

我還是有的。

It's fantastic advice.

這是很好的建議。

And there's a couple other tricks that I want to share with you.

此外，我還想和大家分享幾個小竅門。

There's about six little ones and then one massive one.

大約有六個小的，還有一個大的。

So let's do this.

那就這麼辦吧。

Here's how you interview almost anyone.

下面是你採訪幾乎所有人的方法。

Trick number one, do some prep.

第一招，做一些準備工作。

Come on.

來吧

Don't be that guy who is like, I'm just going to wing it, man.

不要做那種 "我只是想試試而已 "的人。

And I'm looking at podcasters mostly for this.

為此，我主要關注播客。

There's this scourge of people who think that they can sit down and hold their own.

自以為可以坐享其成的人大有人在。

And they can't.

但他們做不到。

Nobody is that good.

沒人有那麼好。

Nobody is that good, okay?

沒有人是那麼好，好嗎？

Secondly, it's a little arrogant and vain to think that you are.

其次，自以為是有點傲慢和虛榮。

So show your guest.

那就給你的客人看看吧。

It's true.

這是真的。

Show your guest the basic dignity of a Google search.

向客人展示谷歌搜索的基本功能。

It's not hard.

這並不難。

Do it on your phone.

在手機上完成

I don't care when you do it.

我不在乎你什麼時候做。

Just do it.

照做就是了。

Okay, so number two.

好吧，那麼第二項。

You are going to be doing some prep.

你要做一些準備工作。

I suggest, since that author is coming in and you may not have read the whole book or like maybe even half of it, they're going to need you to know about it.

我建議，既然那位作者要來，而你可能還沒讀過整本書，甚至可能只讀了一半，那麼他們就需要你瞭解一下這本書。

So what you do is you find interviews they already did and somebody else can do the work for you.

所以，你要做的就是找到他們已經做過的訪談，讓別人幫你做這些工作。

Now, I'm not saying steal their questions because that's wrong.

現在，我不是說要竊取他們的問題，因為那是不對的。

But I am saying you can use the answers that they gave earlier as your jumping off point.

但我的意思是，你可以把他們之前給出的答案作為你的起點。

We call this the Terry Gross move.

我們稱之為特里-格羅斯之舉。

You guys know who Terry Gross is, okay?

你們知道特里-格羅斯是誰嗎？

She's fantastic.

她太棒了

And she said this was a stealable move.

她還說這是一個可以偷走的動作。

I was in the room.

我當時就在房間裡。

She said you can have it, okay?

她說可以給你，好嗎？

So what that looks like when you take, you're basically following up on somebody else's questions.

所以，當你接聽電話時，你基本上是在跟進別人的問題。

So if that person is on NPR and that person says, well, my workflow goes like this.

所以，如果這個人在全國公共廣播電臺上說，我的工作流程是這樣的。

I wake up at 7.05.

我在 7 點 05 分醒來。

Then I do hot yoga.

然後我做高溫瑜伽。

Then I'm in the office by 9.

然後，我 9 點前到辦公室。

You can use that answer and you can pick it apart.

你可以使用這個答案，也可以把它挑出來。

You can think, 7.05?

你可以想想，7.05？

It's like a normal person sets an alarm for 7.05, 7 o'clock, 7.30.

就像一個正常人把鬧鐘定在 7 點 05 分、7 點、7 點 30 分一樣。

Why that?

為什麼？

And then they will tell you, well, you know, I did the math is how long it takes me to get to the bathroom and then the shower takes this long.

然後他們會告訴你，你知道，我算過了，我去衛生間要花多長時間，然後洗澡要花這麼長時間。

And then you're off to the races, okay?

然後你就可以去比賽了，好嗎？

So 7.05, that's the Terry Gross move, follow up.

7點05分，特里-格羅斯的行動，跟進。

All right.

好的

Now, if you're going to be finding interviews with people, this is my personal favorite.

現在，如果你要找人採訪，這是我個人的最愛。

And I hope that you remember this and steal it.

我希望你們記住這一點，並將其發揚光大。

You can have it.

你可以擁有它。

It goes like this.

事情是這樣的

Find verbal interviews.

尋找口頭面試。

When you read in Rolling Stone or some blog an interview, the odds are very high that that interview was done over email.

當你在《滾石》或某個博客上讀到一篇採訪時，很有可能那篇採訪是通過電子郵件完成的。

So they're thinking their answers out, it's all calculated, it's tactical.

所以他們的答案都是經過深思熟慮的，都是經過計算的，都是戰術性的。

You don't want that.

你不會想這樣的。

You want the verbal things where you get the social cues and the intangibles that they're going to bring to you like a normal human in a normal human conversation where you know if they're nervous and you can help them.

你需要的是語言上的東西，在這裡你可以獲得社交線索和無形的東西，他們會像正常人一樣在正常人的對話中帶給你，你知道他們是否緊張，你可以幫助他們。

If you know that they're going to be nervous, you can see it and you can predict it, okay?

如果你知道他們會緊張，你就能看到並預測到，好嗎？

So another thing they'll telegraph to you in these other interviews that you're listening to, do they speak too fast?

所以，在你聽的其他採訪中，他們會向你暗示另一件事，他們說話是不是太快了？

Are they walled off?

它們被圍起來了嗎？

Do they have a stutter, a lisp?

他們有口吃、口齒不清嗎？

Like you want to know all this going in.

說得好像你想知道這些似的。

So find verbal interviews.

所以，要找口頭面試。

Now the sidebar to that, this is a great thing.

現在，從側面來看，這是一件了不起的事情。

As an interviewer, you really, really want to hear these words.

作為面試官，你非常非常想聽到這些話。

How did you even know that?

你怎麼知道的？

That's what you want to hear.

這就是你想聽到的。

And if you can find these sort of small time interviews, these verbal interviews that they've done, right?

如果你能找到這些小範圍的採訪，這些他們做過的口頭採訪，對嗎？

If you're going on NBC in the morning, you're going to stay up all night practicing.

如果早上要上 NBC，就得熬夜練習。

But if you were going on a high school radio station in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, you were going to phone it in from your car on your way to pick up your kids, right?

但是，如果你要去阿拉巴馬州塔斯卡盧薩的一所高中電臺，你會在去接孩子的路上在車裡打電話，對嗎？

You're going to forget everything you said on that interview.

你會忘記面試時說的每一句話。

So those are the ones you want to find, the little tiny ones where the stakes are very low and they're very casual.

所以，你要找的就是這些，那些賭注很小、很隨意的小遊戲。

Because all these tips that I'm trying to give you set a stage for a person to be casual, comfortable, and human.

因為我想告訴你的所有這些技巧，都為一個人的隨意、舒適和人性化搭建了舞臺。

So find the little ones because when you bring up the thing that they forgot they told the high school DJ in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, they will tell you, how did you even know that?

所以要找到那些小傢伙，因為當你提起他們忘記告訴阿拉巴馬州塔斯卡盧薩高中 DJ 的事情時，他們會告訴你，你怎麼會知道？

And then they loosen up even more because things are going good.

然後，他們會因為事情進展順利而更加放鬆。

First three tips, that's all beforehand.

前三個提示，都是事先準備好的。

Second three tips are going to be during the interview.

後三個技巧將在面試中使用。

Number one, I hate to even say it, but ice breakers, they totally work.

第一，我甚至不想這麼說，但破冰遊戲是完全有效的。

Your summer camp counselor was right, okay?

你的夏令營輔導員是對的，好嗎？

And the trick that you want to do is when you are breaking the ice with somebody you don't know, especially when they're way out of your league, is make it relevant.

當你與不認識的人打破僵局時，尤其是當對方遠遠超出你的能力範圍時，你要做的就是讓談話變得有意義。

Camouflage it.

偽裝

So if you're talking to a fluvial geomorphologist, and I have, she was awesome, it's great, you can ask things like, what was your major in college?

所以，如果你在和一位河流地貌學家交談，我就和她交談過，她非常棒，你可以問一些問題，比如你大學主修什麼？

It's relevant, but not really, it's an icebreaker, and then I go, oh yeah, you know, well I went into college as a poetry major but then I switched to geology.

這很有意義，但不是真的，這只是個破冰遊戲，然後我就會說，哦，是的，你知道，我大學主修詩歌，但後來我轉到了地質學。

What?

什麼？

Like how do you connect that?

比如說，你是如何將其連接起來的？

And you ask her that and she will connect poetry to geology and it's beautiful, okay?

你問她這個問題，她會把詩歌和地質學聯繫起來，很美，好嗎？

So don't fear the icebreaker, it'll work for you.

所以，不要害怕破冰，它會對你有用的。

Last two little things before we get to the big one.

在說大事之前，最後兩件小事。

Number one is listen, which is harder and harder and harder.

第一是傾聽，這一點越來越難。

Everything in this world is trying to shorten your attention span and everything is winning at that.

這個世界上的一切都在試圖縮短你的注意力，而且一切都在這方面取得了勝利。

Everything is winning.

一切都是勝利。

And if you're not listening to me right now, I feel you.

如果你現在沒在聽我說話，我很同情你。

But try to focus in and don't do these corny things like trying to think of your next question while they're still talking.

但要儘量集中注意力，不要做這些老生常談的事情，比如在他們還在說話的時候就想好下一個問題。

Listen completely and be there, be present.

全神貫注地傾聽，身臨其境地感受。

Don't try to get a joke in and certainly do not step on their answer.

不要試圖開玩笑，當然也不要踩到他們的回答。

Give them the time, okay?

給他們點時間，好嗎？

So you want to listen and you can only listen if you, last one, shut up.

所以你想聽，只有你，最後一個，閉嘴，你才能聽。

She was right.

她是對的。

It comes back to shutting up and giving them some breathing room so that they can say their piece at a tempo they're cool with.

這又回到了閉嘴和給他們一些喘息空間的問題上，這樣他們就可以用自己喜歡的節奏來表達自己的觀點。

And there's a fun sidebar to the shut up thing, which is this, dead air chicken.

閉嘴這件事還有一個有趣的小插曲，那就是 "死氣雞"。

Does that make sense just right off the bat?

這樣說有道理嗎？

No, okay.

不，好吧

So dead air chicken works like this.

所以，死氣雞是這樣工作的。

It can go on.

它可以繼續。

And I will win.

我會贏的

Because when you create an awkward pause that is awkward enough, the thing that they will desperately fill it with burbles up from a wild part of their psychology that they cannot control at all.

因為當你製造出一個足夠尷尬的停頓時，他們會拼命用自己心理的某個狂野部分來填補這個停頓，而這個狂野部分是他們完全無法控制的。

And this is where you get your unpredictable stuff.

這就是你獲得不可預知的東西的地方。

So dead air chicken, do proceed with caution though.

所以死氣沉沉的雞，還是要謹慎行事。

All right.

好吧

So now these things will get you through an interview.

所以，現在這些東西會讓你順利通過面試。

They will get you through to the other side and you will kind of appear competent because you kind of are at this point.

他們會把你帶到另一邊，而你也會顯得有點能幹，因為此時的你已經有點能幹了。

But it won't give you the conversation that you want to have, the one that people will email you later about and say, man, I didn't think fluvial, what is it?

但是，這不會給你帶來你想進行的對話，也不會讓人們後來給你發郵件說："夥計，我沒想到流體，它是什麼？

I didn't know that was my thing.

我不知道這是我的專長。

So they will email you this if you can set the table for your guest to be comfortable.

是以，如果您能將餐桌布置得讓客人感到舒適，他們就會給您發送電子郵件。

You know when you're at a party and you are explaining your job to somebody else or your passion to somebody else and they're just leaning in and in and in and they're like, bring it, bring it.

你知道，當你在派對上向別人解釋你的工作或你的激情時，他們就會說："說吧，說吧。

I want to know everything you can tell me.

我想知道你能告訴我的一切。

That is the real trick.

這才是真正的訣竅。

Bored people are boring.

無聊的人很無聊。

Interested people are interesting.

有興趣的人是有趣的。

So what I'm trying to tell you is be interested in everything possible, right?

所以，我想告訴你的是，要對一切可能的事情感興趣，對嗎？

Everything at all.

所有的一切。

Curiosity is a muscle.

好奇心是一種肌肉。

And I'm not the most curious person by any stretch.

而且我也不是最好奇的人。

But I have found that the ROI on curiosity, man, that pays for itself.

但我發現，好奇心帶來的投資回報率是值得的。

Because you, if you can put yourself in uncomfortable positions, if you can, like for me it looks like, you know, it's sort of cultivating curiosity.

因為，如果你能把自己放在不舒服的位置上，如果你能，比如對我來說，這看起來就像，你知道，這是一種培養好奇心的方式。

I try to diversify my media.

我努力使我的媒體多樣化。

I try to listen to genres of music I don't like.

我嘗試聽我不喜歡的音樂類型。

Free jazz.

自由爵士樂

What the hell, free jazz?

什麼鬼，自由爵士樂？

I want to know what people see in free jazz.

我想知道人們在自由爵士樂中看到了什麼。

I don't get it.

我不明白。

But I listen to it sometimes and it's sort of rewarding.

但我有時會聽一聽，也算是一種收穫。

But it gives me practice at being uncomfortable with things I don't know about.

不過，這也讓我練習瞭如何對自己不瞭解的事情感到不自在。

So I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if you can be interested in everything as much as possible, it makes your life better.

所以我想說的是，如果你能儘可能對所有事情都感興趣，你的生活就會變得更美好。

Not just when you're at work having to interview fluvial geomorphologists, right?

不只是在你工作的時候要採訪河流地貌學家，對嗎？

Because you will find that you can hang with most conversations because you are bought in.

因為你會發現，你可以和大多數人哈拉，因為你被收買了。

You are genuinely interested in what you are being told.

你對別人告訴你的事情真正感興趣。

You are learning.

您正在學習。

And there's an Emerson quote.

愛默生有一句名言

He says, every man I meet is my superior in some way.

他說，我遇到的每個男人在某些方面都是我的上司。

And in that I learn from him.

在這一點上，我向他學習。

And that is, in my experience, completely true.

根據我的經驗，這完全正確。

I think about it a lot.

我想了很久。

And I have talked to Oscar winners.

我還與奧斯卡獲獎者交談過。

I have talked to hobos who live in a bush.

我和住在灌木叢中的流浪漢聊過天。

And they're equally interesting to me.

我對它們同樣感興趣。

Their narrative matters.

他們的敘述很重要。

And if I can sort of set the table for them to tell me how they are the good guy in their own movie, that's all I want.

如果我能讓他們告訴我，他們是如何在自己的電影中扮演好人的，這就是我想要的。

And that's all they want.

這就是他們想要的一切。

And time after time, if you can get to that point in your discussions, in your interviews, you will find that you walk away a better person.

一次又一次，如果你能在討論中、在面試中達到這一點，你會發現你會成為一個更好的人。

So to conclude, do the tips.

最後，請按提示做。

Do some prep, seriously.

認真做一些準備工作。

Do that.

就這麼做

Do the icebreaker.

破冰

Find the verbal interviews.

找到口頭訪談。

Do all that stuff.

做所有這些事情。

But if you can make curiosity your hobby, if you can become an expert in curiosity, if that's your one area of expertise, you will find that every single person is worth listening to.

但是，如果你能把好奇心作為自己的愛好，如果你能成為好奇心方面的專家，如果這是你的一個專長領域，你就會發現每個人都值得傾聽。

And you are going to walk away better.

你會走得更好。

And don't forget to shut up.

別忘了閉嘴