Political conversations with our family and friends

凱特琳卡楚曼尼：2016 年的 選舉感覺不太一樣。

uncovered a level of polarization

我們和家人及朋友之間的政治對話

that many of us had not previously experienced.

呈現出某種程度的兩極化對立，

People who we always thought were reasonable and intelligent

這是我們許多人過去沒有經歷過的。

seemed like strangers.

我們本來一直認為理性且有智慧的人

We said to ourselves, "How could you think that?

變得像陌生人一樣。

I thought you were smart."

我們對自己說：「你怎麼能那樣想？

Lauran Arledge: Caitlin and I met in the summer of 2011,

我本來以為你很聰明。」

and we bonded around being working moms

蘿倫亞雷吉：凱特琳和我 是在 2011 年暑假認識的，

and trying to keep our very energetic boys busy.

我們都是在職媽媽，且試圖讓

And we soon found out we had almost everything in common.

精力過盛的兒子有事可以忙， 因而成為好友。

From our love of Colorado to our love of sushi,

我們很快就發現， 我們的共通點非常多。

there wasn't much we didn't agree on.

從我們對科羅拉多的愛， 到我們對壽司的愛，

We also discovered that we share a deep love of this country

我們幾乎沒有任何歧見。

and feel a responsibility to be politically active.

我們也發現，我們都 對這個國家有深刻的愛，

But no one's perfect --

且覺得有責任要參與政治活動。

(Laughter)

但沒有人是完美的──

and I soon found out two disappointing things about Caitlin.

（笑聲）

First, she hates camping.

我很快就發現， 凱特琳有兩點讓我很失望。

CQ: I think camping is the worst.

第一，她討厭露營。

LA: So there would not be any joint camping trips in our future.

凱特琳：我認為露營是最糟糕的。

The second thing is that she's politically active all right --

蘿倫：所以我們未來 絕對不可能來趟露營之旅。

as a conservative.

第二，她的確積極參與政治活動，

CQ: I may hate camping, but I love politics.

但她是保守派。

I listen to conservative talk radio just about every day,

凱特琳：我也許 討厭露營，但我愛政治。

and I've volunteered for a few different conservative political campaigns.

我幾乎每天都會聽保守派的 談話性廣播節目，

LA: And I'd say I'm a little to the left,

我曾在幾個不同的保守派 政治競選活動當志工。

like all the way to the left.

蘿倫：我會說我有點偏左派，

(Laughter)

一路到最左邊的左派。

I've always been interested in politics.

（笑聲）

I was a political science major,

我一向對政治很感興趣。

and I worked as a community organizer and on a congressional campaign.

我主修政治學，

CQ: So as Lauran and I were getting to know each other,

我當過社區組織者， 也在國會競選活動做過事。

it was right in the middle of that 2012 presidential campaign,

凱特琳：蘿倫與我開始認識彼此時，

and most of our early political conversations

正好是 2012 總統大選期間，

were really just based in jokes and pranks.

我們之前和政治有關的對話，

So as an example, I would change Lauran's computer screen saver

大多是玩笑和惡作劇。

to a picture of Mitt Romney,

比如，我會把蘿倫的 電腦螢幕保護程式

or she would put an Obama campaign magnet on the back of my car.

改成米特羅姆尼的照片，

(Laughter)

或者她會把歐巴馬的 競選磁鐵貼在我的車後面。

LA: Car, not minivan.

（笑聲）

CQ: But over time, those conversations grew more serious

蘿倫：是汽車，不是休旅車。

and really became a core of our friendship.

凱特琳：但隨時間過去， 那些對話開始變認真了，

And somewhere along the line,

真正成為了我們友誼的核心。

we decided we didn't want to have any topic be off limits for discussion,

在某個時點，

even if those topics pushed us way outside of our friendship comfort zone.

我們決定，我們不希望 有任何主題是禁止討論的，

LA: And so to most of us,

即便是會把我們 遠遠推出舒適圈的主題。

political conversations are a zero-sum game.

蘿倫：對大多數人而言，

There's a winner and there's a loser.

政治對談是場零和遊戲。

We go for the attack and we spot a weakness in someone's argument.

有位贏家，有位輸家。

And here's the important part:

我們要去攻擊，我們要找出 某人論點中的弱點。

we tend to take every comment or opinion that's expressed

重要的是這個部份：

as a personal affront to our own values and beliefs.

我們會把表述出來的每個評論或意見

But what if changed the way we think about these conversations?

當作是針對我們 價值觀及信念的冒犯。

What if, in these heated moments,

但如果去改變我們 對這些談話的看法呢？

we chose dialogue over debate?

如果在這些激動的時刻，

When we engage in dialogue, we flip the script.

我們選擇對話，而非爭論？

We replace our ego and our desire to win

當我們進行對話時， 我們會快速翻過劇本。

with curiosity, empathy

我們會把想要贏的自我和慾望

and a desire to learn.

換成好奇心、同理心、

Instead of coming from a place of judgment,

以及學習的慾望。

we are genuinely interested in the other person's experiences,

我們不是從評斷的角度出發，

their values and their concerns.

而是真心對於對方的經歷、價值觀、

CQ: You make it sound so simple, Lauran.

關心的事感到興趣。

But getting to that place of true dialogue is hard,

凱特琳：你把它說得很簡單，蘿倫。

especially when we're talking about politics.

但要做到真正對話是很難的，

It is so easy to get emotionally fired up

特別是在談政治的時候。

about issues that we're passionate about,

對於我們很有熱情的議題，

and we can let our ego get in the way of truly hearing

情緒很容易就會被挑起來，

the other person's perspective.

我們的自我很可能會阻礙我們真正去

And in this crazy political climate we're in right now,

傾聽另一個人的觀點。

unfortunately, we're seeing an extreme result

在我們現在所處的 這種瘋狂政治氣候中，

of those heated political conversations,

不幸的是，我們看到那些激動的

to the point where people are willing to walk away from their relationships.

政治對話產生很極端的結果，

In fact, Rasmussen released a poll earlier this year

極端到人們願意為此 斷絕彼此的關係。

that said 40 percent of people reported that the 2016 election

事實上，今年早些時候， 拉斯穆森公佈了一項民調，

negatively impacted a personal relationship,

指出 40% 的人認為 2016 年選舉

and the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience tells us

對他們的個人關係產生負面影響，

that people tend to feel their way to their beliefs

而認知神經科學期刊告訴我們，

rather than using reasoning,

對於信念，人們傾向是用感覺的，

and that when reason and emotion collide,

而不是用推論思考，

it's emotion that invariably wins.

而當理性與感性相撞時，

So no wonder it's hard to talk about these issues.

永遠是感性勝出。

LA: And look, we're just two regular friends

難怪談論這些議題是很困難的。

who happen to think very differently

蘿倫：而且，我們只是 兩個普通的朋友，

about politics and the role that government should play in our lives.

對政治以及政府在我們生活中

And I know we were all taught not to talk about politics

該扮演的角色， 剛好有非常不同的想法。

because it's not polite,

我知道我們都被教導不要去談政治，

but we need to be able to talk about it,

因為那樣不禮貌，

because it's important to us and it's a part of who we are.

但我們必須要能夠談政治，

CQ: We have chosen to avoid political debate

因為政治對我們很重要， 它是我們本質的一部份。

and instead engage in dialogue

凱特琳：我們選擇避免政治爭辯，

in order to maintain what we fondly call

取而代之，我們進行對話，

our bipartisan friendship.

以維持我們所謂的

(Laughter)

兩黨構成的友誼。

LA: And this election and all of the craziness that has followed

（笑聲）

has given us several opportunities to practice this skill.

蘿倫：這場選舉，以及 隨後而來的各種瘋狂，

(Laughter)

給了我們一些機會來練習這項技巧。

Let's start with January and the Women's March.

（笑聲）

At this point, you can probably guess which one of us participated.

我們從一月的女權大遊行開始。

(Laughter)

此時，你們應該已經能猜出 我們兩個是誰去參與了遊行。

CQ: Oh, the Women's March.

（笑聲）

I was annoyed and irritated that entire day,

凱特琳：喔，女權大遊行。

really because of two things.

那一整天，我都覺得很心煩，

Number one, the name "Women's March."

原因有兩個。

As a conservative woman,

第一，「女權大遊行」這個名稱。

the march's platform of issues didn't represent me,

身為保守派女性，

and that's OK,

這場遊行的議題平台並不代表我，

but hearing it talked about as this demonstration of sisterhood

那沒關係，

and solidarity for all women

但聽它談論要展現姐妹情誼、

didn't ring true for me.

所有女性要團結，

The other piece was the timing of the event,

在我聽來並沒有道理。

the fact that it was the day after the presidential inauguration.

另一個理由是遊行的時間點，

It felt like we weren't even giving the new administration

它剛好是總統就職典禮的隔天。

to actually do anything, good or bad,

感覺就像我們甚至不讓新政府

before people felt the need to demonstrate against it.

有機會做什麼，不論做得好壞，

LA: And under normal circumstances, I would agree with Caitlin.

人們就已經覺得需要展現出反對了。

I think an administration does deserve the benefit of the doubt.

蘿倫：在正常情況下， 我會同意凱特琳的說法。

But in this case, I was marching to show my concern

我認為政府的確應該要 先被認定是無辜的才對。

that a man with such a poor track record with women and other groups

但在這個情況下， 我遊行是要表示我的擔心，

had been elected as president.

一個過去對女性及其他群體 都有不良記錄的人

I had to be part of the collective voice

竟被選為總統。

that wanted to send a clear message to the new president

我必須要成為集體聲音的一部份，

that we did not accept or condone

想要給予新總統一個清楚的訊息，

his behavior or rhetoric during the election.

告訴他，我們不能接受或容忍

CQ: So I'm already feeling kind of aggravated,

他在選舉過程的行為或言辭。

and then I see this Facebook from Lauran pop up in my social media feed.

凱特琳：所以，我已經有點被惹火，

(Laughter)

接著，我看到蘿倫的這則臉書貼文 在我的動態時報跳出來。

Seeing Lauran's sons at the march and holding signs

（笑聲）

took it to a new level for me, and not in a good way,

看到蘿倫的兒子們 出現在遊行中，拿著標語，

because I know these boys,

把我帶到了一個新的境界， 且不是好的境界，

I love these boys,

因為我認識那些男孩，

and I didn't feel they were old enough

我愛那些男孩，

to understand what the march stood for.

我不覺得他們的年紀夠大到

I didn't understand why Lauran would choose

能了解遊行的意義。

to have them participate in that way,

我不了解蘿倫為什麼會選擇

and I assumed it wasn't a choice that the boys made for themselves.

讓他們用那種方式參與，

But I also know Lauran.

我假設那些男孩 並不是自己做決定的。

You're an incredible mom

但，我也了解蘿倫。

who would never exploit your boys in any way,

你是個了不起的媽媽，

so I had to stop and check myself.

永遠不會以任何方式利用你的孩子，

I had a decision to make.

所以我得停下來，克制自己。

I could take the easy way out

我得要做一個決定。

and just choose not to say anything to her,

我可以選簡單的路，

and instead just kind of simmer in my frustration,

什麼都不要對她說，

or I could ask her to learn more about her motivations.

把挫折感都往肚裡吞，

LA: And I shared with Caitlin

或是我可以問她， 以更了解她的動機。

that we actually started talking about the March

蘿倫：而我和凱特琳分享，

weeks before we participated.

告訴她，我們在參與之前的幾週，

And my boys were curious as to why the event was being organized,

就開始談論那場遊行。

and this led to some very interesting family conversations.

我的兒子們很好奇 為什麼要辦這個活動，

We talked about how in this country, we have the right and the privilege

這帶來了一些很有意思的家庭對談。

to demonstrate against something we don't agree with,

我們談到在這個國家中 我們能有權利和特權，

and my husband shared with them why he thought it was so important

來針對我們不認同的事物示威抗議，

that men joined the Women's March.

我先生與他們分享了 他為什麼認為男性參與

But the most significant reason we marched as a family

女權大遊行很重要的原因。

is that it was a way for us to honor my parents' legacy.

但我們會全家一起去遊行， 最重要的理由是，

They spent their careers

這是我們榮耀 我父母的精神遺產的方式。

working to defend the rights of some of our most vulnerable citizens,

他們投入整個職涯，

and they passed these values down to me and my brother,

來為一些最脆弱的公民捍衛權利，

and we want to do the same with our sons.

他們將這些價值觀傳給我和我兄弟，

CQ: After talking to Lauran,

我們也想要再傳給我們的兒子。

I really understood not only why she felt it was so important to march,

凱特琳：和蘿倫談過之後，

but why she had her boys with her.

我真的能了解為什麼 她覺得遊行那麼重要，

And frankly, my assumptions were wrong.

以及為什麼她會帶兒子同行。

It was the boys who wanted to march

坦白說，我的假設是錯的。

after they talked about the issues as a family.

在與家人談過這些議題後，

But what's most important about this example

男孩們自己主動想要去遊行的。

is to think about the alternative.

但這個例子最重要的一點是，

Had Lauran and I not talked about it,

是要去想想其他的可能。

I would have been annoyed with her,

如果蘿倫和我沒有談這件事，

and it could have resulted in an undercurrent of disrespect

我就會對她很不爽，

in our friendship.

可能會導致我們的友誼 產生不尊重的潛在情緒。

But by asking Lauran questions, it allowed us to use dialogue

但藉由問蘿倫問題， 讓我們能使用對話，

to get to a place of true understanding.

來達成真正的了解。

Now, to be clear,

讓我說清楚，

our conversation didn't really change my mind about how I felt about the March,

我們的對談並沒有改變 我對於那場大遊行的看法，

but it absolutely changed my thinking around why she brought her boys with her.

但絕對改變了我對於 她為什麼帶兒子同行的想法。

And for both of us, that dialogue allowed us to understand

對我們兩個而言， 那對話讓我們可以了解

each other's perspective about the Women's March

彼此對於女權大遊行的看法，

even though we disagreed.

即使我們意見不相同。

LA: The second topic that challenged our ability to engage in dialogue

蘿倫：挑戰我們進行對話 之能力的第二個主題是

was around my need to understand

是我需要了解

how Caitlin could vote for Trump.

凱特琳怎麼能投票給川普。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Caitlin is a successful professional woman

凱特琳是個成功的職業女性，

who is deeply caring and compassionate,

她有深切的關懷與同理心，

and the Caitlin I know

而我所認識的凱特琳

would never excuse any man from talking about women

絕對不會原諒任何男人像川普在

the way that Trump did during the campaign.

競選期間那樣談論女人。

It was hard for me to reconcile these two things in my mind.

對我來說，我很難在腦中 把這兩者放在一起。

How could you overlook the things that were said?

你怎麼能忽略他說的那些話？

CQ: So I'm guessing I may not be the only one here that thought

凱特琳：我猜，這裡 並不只有我一個人認為

we didn't have the best choices for the presidential election last year.

去年總統大選我們 並沒有最好的選擇。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

The Republican candidate who I did support didn't make it out of the primary,

我本來支持的共和黨候選人 在初選就被淘汰了，

so when it came time to vote, I had a decision to make.

到了要投票的時候， 我得要做一個決定。

And you're right, there were some terrible things

你說的沒錯，在川普競選期間的確

that came out during the Trump campaign,

說出了一些很糟糕的話，

so much so that I almost decided to just abstain

我幾乎就打算要投廢票

rather than voting for president,

而不是投給總統了，

something I had never even considered doing before.

我以前從來沒這樣考量過。

But ultimately, I did vote for Donald Trump,

但最終，我確實投給了川普，

and for me it was really a vote for party over person,

對我而言，那張票是 投給黨而不是投給人的，

especially recognizing how important that presidential pick is

特別是我知道總統的選擇對於

on influencing our judicial branch.

我們的司法有多大的影響。

But I shared with Lauran it was a decision I really wrestled with,

但我與蘿倫分享說， 這個決定也讓我很掙扎，

and not one that I made lightly.

我並不是輕易就決定的。

LA: And so after our conversation, I was struck by a few things.

蘿倫：在我們談過之後， 我被點醒了幾件事。

First, I had fallen victim to my own confirmation bias.

第一，我成了我自己 確認偏誤的受害者。

Because of my strong feelings about Trump,

因為我對川普的強烈感受，

I had given all Trump voters the same attributes,

讓我給予所有投給 川普的人同樣的特質，

and none of them forgiving.

不原諒他們任何一個人。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

But knowing Caitlin, I started to ask questions.

但因為了解凱特琳， 所以我開始問問題，

What were Trump voters really concerned about?

投給川普的人關心的到底是什麼？

Under all the divisive language, what was really going on?

在所有這些分化的言辭底下 到底是發生了什麼事？

What could we learn about ourselves and our country

我們能從這個不太像真的事件中，

from this unlikely event?

學到些關於自己及國家的什麼？

I also learned that we shared a deep disappointment in this election,

我也發現，我們都 對這次選舉很失望，

and that we have growing concerns about our two-party political system.

我們也都越來越擔心 我們的兩黨政治體系。

But the most important thing about this conversation

但關於這次對談，最重要的就是：

is that it happened at all.

我們對談了。

Without an open and honest dialogue between the two of us,

如果我們兩人之間沒有 開放且誠實的對話，

this election would have been the elephant in the room

接下來的四年，這次選舉 就會像是房間中的大象，

for the next four years, pun intended.

我故意這麼說的。

(Laughter)

（笑聲） （指棘手問題及共和黨的黨徽為大象）

CQ: So, look --

凱特琳：所以──

(Applause)

（掌聲）

So, look -- we know it takes work to get past the difficult,

所以──我們知道 要花心力才能克服困難、

frustrating and sometimes emotional parts

挫折、有時還包括討論時的情緒，

of having discussions about issues like the Women's March

如在討論像女權大遊行、 或為何你朋友要