Name: 理查德-裡夫斯工人階級男性為何面臨最嚴重的衰退 | 完整訪談 (Richard Reeves: Why working-class men are facing the sharpest decline | Full Interview)
Uploaded: 2025-09-05T18:27:20.000Z
Duration: 1 h 37 min 7 s

It's certainly clear that the issues of boys and men haven't gone away in the last few years.

很明顯，男孩和男人的問題在過去幾年裡並沒有消失。

現在進行式

If anything, they're getting even more attention, which is good when it's the right kind of attention.

如果說有什麼不同的話，那就是他們得到了更多的關注，只要是正確的關注，那就是好事。

to 不定詞

And what I've noticed is that, perhaps as a result of videos like this and of the broader conversation, is that the permission space to talk about the issues of boys and men seems to have broadened.

我注意到的是，也許是由於這樣的視頻和更廣泛的對話，談論男孩和男人問題的許可空間似乎擴大了。

Whereas it felt like a very difficult thing to talk about, it was controversial, you were treading on eggshells all the time.

這讓人感覺很難開口，因為這很有爭議性，你一直都得小心翼翼。

Now it feels a little bit more straightforward.

That doesn't mean that it isn't still a difficult conversation.

但這並不意味著這不是一個艱難的對話。

I think that a conversation about the challenges of boys and men should be difficult.

我認為，關於男孩和男人面臨的挑戰的對話應該是艱難的。

I think that if you don't find it an uncomfortable conversation, given some of the challenges that we still have to deal with for women and girls, then maybe you shouldn't be in that conversation.

我認為，考慮到我們仍需應對婦女和女童面臨的一些挑戰，如果你不覺得這是一場令人不舒服的對話，那麼也許你就不應該參與這場對話。

So although it's still a difficult conversation, but it's a possible conversation.

是以，儘管這仍然是一次艱難的對話，但卻是一次可能的對話。

And I'm really pleased to see many more people now being willing to say,

我非常高興地看到，現在有更多的人願意說："我知道，我知道、

好吧，我們應該解決這個問題。

I think the key to that is to make sure that it's not seen as zero-sum.

我認為，關鍵在於要確保它不被視為零和。

As soon as people are reassured that looking at the challenges of boys and men, trying to fix those problems, is not at the expense of continuing to do work for women and girls, everyone sort of starts to breathe more easily.

一旦人們確信，關注男孩和男人所面臨的挑戰，努力解決這些問題，並不是以犧牲繼續為婦女和女孩開展工作為代價，每個人都會開始更輕鬆地呼吸。

Once you get past the or, it's women or men, and you get into the and, that we have to rise together, then that's a big unlock.

一旦你超越了 "或"（女人或男人），進入了 "和"（我們必須共同崛起），那就是一個很大的解鎖。

And what I've really noticed is that once you make that move, once you've unlocked the conversation, everybody wants to talk about it.

而我真正注意到的是，一旦你做出這樣的舉動，一旦你開啟了對話，每個人都想談論它。

It's like, you know, you've undammed the reservoir.

這就像，你知道，你把水庫的水都排幹了。

It's just everybody has sons they're worried about, husbands they're worried about, brothers they're interested in.

只是每個人都有自己擔心的兒子，擔心的丈夫，關心的兄弟。

If you set the stage in the right way, then everybody wants to talk about this issue.

如果你以正確的方式搭建舞臺，那麼每個人都願意談論這個問題。

I'm president of the American Institute for Boys and Men.

我是美國男孩和男人協會的主席。

I'm also the author of the book, Of Boys and Men,

我還是《男孩與男人》一書的作者、

Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why That Matters, and What to Do About It.

現代男性為何掙扎，為何重要，以及如何應對。

It's obviously true, as we look around, that many men and boys do feel somewhat lost.

環顧四周，許多男人和男孩確實感到有些迷茫，這顯然是事實。

They don't quite know their place in society.

他們不太清楚自己在社會中的位置。

They don't quite understand how they're supposed to be.

他們還不太明白自己應該怎樣。

They very often know how they're not supposed to be.

他們往往知道自己不應該怎樣。

And so this sense of what's my place in the world?

我在這個世界上的位置是什麼？

What's my role going to be going forward?

That's a very real question that many men and boys are genuinely struggling with.

這是一個非常現實的問題，許多男人和男孩都在為這個問題而真正掙扎。

That's a real challenge, and it's a real question that men have to ask themselves today in a way that they didn't a few decades ago.

這是一個真正的挑戰，也是今天的男人必須捫心自問的一個真正的問題，而幾十年前的男人並沒有這樣做。

One barrier to talking about boys and men is this fear that it's going to be zero-sum, that it takes away from the correct attention we pay to women and girls.

談論男孩和男人的一個障礙就是擔心這會是零和遊戲，會影響我們對婦女和女孩的正確關注。

But another problem is that as soon as you start to say, well, boys are a bit more like this, girls are a bit more like that, or men are a bit more like this, women are a bit more like that, people will immediately say, well, I know a woman that's not like that, or a man that's not like that.

但另一個問題是，一旦你開始說，嗯，男孩更像這樣一點，女孩更像那樣一點，或者男人更像這樣一點，女人更像那樣一點，人們就會馬上說，嗯，我認識的一個女人不是這樣的，或者一個男人不是這樣的。

And I've come to believe that a huge problem with this whole debate is the unwillingness or inability to imagine overlapping distributions, to say that there can be a difference on average between males and females on whatever we're talking about.

我認為，整個辯論的一個巨大問題在於，我們不願意或無法想象重疊分佈，也就是無論我們在談論什麼，男性和女性在平均水平上都可能存在差異。

But that doesn't mean that all women are like all women and all men are like all men.

但這並不意味著所有女人都和所有女人一樣，所有男人都和所有男人一樣。

是以，我們可以用身高來做類比。

If you think about the statement that men are taller than women, very few people would interpret that to mean all men are taller than all women, right?

如果你想想 "男人比女人高 "這句話，很少有人會把它理解為所有男人都比所有女人高，對嗎？

But what it does mean is that about one in seven men are over six foot compared to one in a hundred women.

但這確實意味著，大約七分之一的男性身高超過六英尺，而女性則是百分之一。

And the same at the bottom, below about five two.

底部也是一樣，大約在 5.2 以下。

So there's a big overlap in the distributions of height between men and women.

是以，男性和女性的身高分佈有很大的重疊。

And very few people would say that the statement men are taller than women is disproven by the fact that you're walking along the street and you see a woman that's six foot three or a man that's five foot two, right?

很少有人會說，你走在街上，看到一個身高六英尺三的女人或一個身高五英尺二的男人，就能反駁 "男人比女人高 "的說法，對嗎？

We all know what we mean, that it's on average.

我們都知道我們的意思，這是平均值。

And so when we get into questions around differences in learning style or risk-taking, risk of addiction, competitiveness, emotional vocabulary, etc.

是以，當我們涉及到學習風格或冒險精神、成癮風險、競爭力、情感詞彙等方面的差異問題時。

And if you say that there are these differences between males and females which might matter, we shouldn't immediately assume that we're stereotyping every man and woman into that role.

如果你說男性和女性之間的這些差異可能很重要，我們就不應該立即假設我們把每個男人和女人都定型為這種角色。

I get why people are worried about it because, let me give you a personal example.

我明白人們為什麼會擔心這個問題，因為，讓我給你舉一個親身經歷的例子。

My son is a fifth grade teacher and my sister-in-law is an engineer.

我的兒子是一名五年級教師，我的嫂子是一名工程師。

So even if it's true that on average, some of the preferences that men and women will have might lead them overall to have more men interested in engineering and more women interested in being elementary school teachers, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with my son or my sister-in-law.

是以，即使平均而言，男性和女性的某些偏好可能會導致總體上更多男性對工程學感興趣，更多女性對小學教師感興趣，但這並不意味著我的兒子或嫂子有什麼問題。

There are always going to be people on the other end of the distribution.

But it does mean that we should respect and acknowledge where there are these differences on average between the two, if it matters.

但這確實意味著，我們應該尊重和承認兩者之間平均存在的這些差異，如果這很重要的話。

So for example, the greater risk-taking that we see among men, especially young men, that really does matter.

是以，舉例來說，我們在男性，尤其是年輕男性中看到的更大的冒險行為，確實很重要。

Understanding that is important for all kinds of things, including public health and public safety.

瞭解這一點對包括公共衛生和公共安全在內的各種事情都很重要。

One of the things I've noticed is that people are quite quick to blame if young men are struggling, if they're not in the labour market.

我注意到的一件事是，如果年輕人陷入困境，如果他們沒有進入勞動力市場，人們很快就會指責他們。

There's the eye roll and there's the, well, if they could just get off the sofa and stop smoking so much weed and playing video games all day, maybe they'd make something of themselves.

有的人翻白眼，有的人說，好吧，如果他們能離開沙發，不再抽那麼多大麻，不再整天玩電子遊戲，也許他們會有所成就。

It's interesting that that instinct to blame is really not as common for other groups as it is for young men.

有趣的是，指責的本能在其他群體中確實不如在年輕男性中普遍。

And there are some challenges there for sure, but I'm pretty convinced that it's not that young men are making this kind of deliberate choice to be kind of video gaming.

當然，這其中也存在一些挑戰，但我確信，這並不是因為年輕人故意選擇玩電子遊戲。

So teen boys are like three times as likely, roughly, as teen girls to be playing video games.

是以，青少年男孩玩電子遊戲的機率大概是青少年女孩的三倍。

I've raised three sons, all in their 20s now, and actually it can be quite socially connecting in the right way if it amplifies and adds to in real life relationships.

我已經養育了三個兒子，現在都已經 20 多歲了。實際上，如果能以正確的方式放大和增加現實生活中的人際關係，就能很好地與社會建立聯繫。

So I am not convinced at all that this is a choice on the part of young men which could be described as just kind of selfish or weak, which is sometimes this sense, just get this sense of frustration among people.

是以，我完全不相信這是年輕人的選擇，可以說這只是一種自私或軟弱，有時這種感覺，只是讓人感到沮喪。

They pull themselves up by their bootstraps type thing, you know, man up, get off the sofa.

他們自力更生，你知道的，男子漢大丈夫，從沙發上站起來。

And of course, it's true that people should take responsibility.

當然，人們確實應該承擔責任。

Of course, like I wanted my sons to have agency and get into the labour market and have their own lives for sure.

當然，我也希望我的兒子們有自己的選擇，進入勞動力市場，擁有自己的生活。

But we are too quick to just point to something like video games and say that that's the cause of the detachment of men.

但是，我們太急於把矛頭指向電子遊戲之類的東西，並說這就是導致男人離群索居的原因。

I'm more inclined to think that it's the consequence of the detachment of men.

我更傾向於認為，這是男人脫離社會的後果。

And it is true that it gives you somewhere else to go.

I would say that gaming and to some extent pornography and some other online activities, what they do provide for young men is a place to retreat to, which didn't exist before.

我想說的是，遊戲以及某種程度上的色情和其他一些網絡活動，確實為年輕人提供了一個退隱的地方，而這在以前是不存在的。

I think it is fair to say that if things are kind of tough and there's an easy and comfortable place to retreat to, then you're going to see more people doing that.

我認為可以這樣說，如果事情有點棘手，而又有一個輕鬆舒適的地方可以退避三舍，那麼你會看到更多的人這樣做。

But it's a mistake to blame those places for the retreat.

但是，把撤退歸咎於這些地方是錯誤的。

It is not that these young men just lack responsibility.

這些年輕人並不是缺乏責任感。

They're just feckless, to use that great old word.

用這個古老的詞來形容，他們就是沒出息。

And so that's why they're wasting their lives away.

My experience of this is that if you enter into this conversation with a young man with the mindset, what's wrong with you?

我的經驗是，如果你帶著 "你怎麼了？

That is not an effective way into the conversation.

That is a way of blaming men for their problems and just saying it's down to an individual lack of character rather than some structural issues in the labour market, in the education system and possibly in the dating world as well.

這是一種將問題歸咎於男性的方式，只是說這歸咎於個人缺乏品格，而不是勞動力市場、教育系統以及約會世界中的一些結構性問題。

This is one of these areas where it's just much easier to take a strong line one way or the other, between individual responsibility and structural problems.

在個人責任和結構性問題之間，我們更容易採取堅定的立場。

And of course, the challenge lies in the middle.

But I have noticed that perhaps more socially conservative people are at least consistent about this.

但我注意到，也許社會上更保守的人在這方面至少是一致的。

They tend to point to individual responsibility regardless of who it is.

不管是誰，他們都傾向於指出個人責任。

I would say that men are perhaps the only group that they're quite as willing to point the finger out and blame for their own problems.

我想說的是，男人也許是唯一一個願意為自己的問題指手畫腳的群體。

I really welcome the rise in attention being paid to structural challenges for various groups.

我非常歡迎對不同群體面臨的結構性挑戰給予更多關注。

And I think that that's one we need to apply to the issues facing young men as well.

我認為，我們也需要把這一點應用到年輕人面臨的問題上。

One of the most important things for anybody is to be connected and have purpose, to be doing something that they value and other people value with their lives.

對任何人來說，最重要的事情之一就是要有聯繫、有目標，做自己和他人都珍視的事情。

And what we've seen is a decline in the share of men in the labour force.

我們看到的是男性在勞動力中所佔比例的下降。

And the decline has been perhaps most worrying among young men.

而這種下降在年輕男性中可能最為令人擔憂。

Now, you might say, well, fewer men are in the workforce doing the kind of traditional male thing, which has been the breadwinner.

現在，你可能會說，嗯，勞動力中從事傳統男性工作的男性越來越少了，而傳統男性一直是養家餬口的人。

But that's great because they're now raising the kids and maybe their partners or their wives or girlfriends are in the labour force, and it's been a swap.

但這很好，因為他們現在正在撫養孩子，也許他們的伴侶、妻子或女朋友也在工作，這就是一種交換。

Women who are out of the labour force are pretty likely to be caring for a child, especially if they're young.

脫離勞動力隊伍的婦女很可能要照顧孩子，尤其是年輕的孩子。

But men who are out of the labour force, very often, honestly, the answer from economists and social scientists to the question, what are those men doing, is we don't know.

但是，對於那些退出勞動力大軍的男性，經濟學家和社會科學家的答案往往是：我們不知道。

And sometimes we don't even know where they're living.

有時我們甚至不知道他們住在哪裡。

And so it's a much deeper kind of detachment.

是以，這是一種更深層次的超脫。

We're not just talking about non-employment.

我們談論的不僅僅是非就業問題。

We're talking about a break from society more generally.

我們說的是更廣泛地脫離社會。

And we see that in all kinds of other areas too.

我們在其他各種領域也看到了這一點。

The best way, I think, to think about some of these men is lost.

我認為，瞭解其中一些人的最好方式就是 "迷失"。

字幕列表影片播放

理查德-裡夫斯工人階級男性為何面臨最嚴重的衰退 | 完整訪談 (Richard Reeves: Why working-class men are facing the sharpest decline | Full Interview)

stuff

struggle

mental

debate