Name: 對話：阿蘭-德波頓與傑米-萊恩談偉大的公司 (In Conversation: Alain de Botton on Great Company with Jamie Laing)
Uploaded: 2025-06-18T18:07:32.000Z
Duration: 59 min 1 s

Hi, I'm Alain de Botton, and I'm great company.

嗨，我是阿蘭-德波頓，我是個好夥伴。

Look, I think it's always going to be your meaning.

聽著，我認為這永遠是你的意思。

And I think that's the paradox in that phrase, that we think of the meaning of life as something that's out there rather than primarily in here, and that we need to discover our own meanings of life.

我認為這就是這句話的悖論之處，我們認為生命的意義是在外面的東西，而不是主要在這裡，我們需要發現我們自己的生命意義。

And really what we mean is, what are my deepest sources of satisfaction?

實際上，我們的意思是，我最深的滿足感來源是什麼？

Some of the most pleasant people to be around are those who, perhaps through lots of trials, have understood what is meaningful for them.

身邊最令人愉快的人是那些也許經歷了許多考驗，但已經明白什麼對自己有意義的人。

We recognize them, often they have a little twinkle in their eye, they're kind of, you think this person is free, they're inwardly free, because they know, roughly, what they're up to.

我們能認出他們，他們的眼睛裡常常閃爍著光芒，他們是那種，你覺得這個人是自由的，他們內心是自由的，因為他們大致知道自己在做什麼。

It's funny, I'm in a real process with myself, and I'm going to use this as more of a therapy session towards myself, if that's alright.

有趣的是，我正在與自己進行一場真正的對話，如果可以的話，我想把這次對話當作對自己的一次治療。

I find it incredible, not so much anymore, I think I do, let's be honest, I'm going to be honest.

我覺得這很不可思議，但現在已經不那麼不可思議了，我想我是這麼認為的，老實說吧，我得實話實說。

I think a lot of us, and maybe lots of people listening, we find it very hard to sit with ourselves.

我想我們中的很多人，也許還有很多人在聽，都會發現自己很難靜下心來。

And I'm in a real position now of trying to lean into what I would describe as ordinary.

而我現在的處境，就是努力向我所描述的平凡靠攏。

I spoke to someone once who I said, I just constantly am looking for exciting things, and they said, that's not a good thing.

有一次，我和一個人哈拉，我說，我一直在尋找令人興奮的事情，他們說，這不是一件好事。

Life is boring, and it's important to sit with that, and sit in that silence.

生活是乏味的，重要的是要靜下心來，坐在寂靜中。

And I still find that very difficult, and I think it's getting worse and worse as we get older, because of social media and everything.

我仍然覺得這很困難，而且我認為隨著年齡的增長，情況會越來越糟，因為有了社交媒體和一切。

I'm a big fan of the concept of the ordinary, only because it's actually extraordinary.

我非常喜歡 "平凡 "這個概念，因為它實際上是不平凡的。

And most of the time, if we think an ordinary life, an ordinary job, people recoil from that word.

而在大多數時候，如果我們想到的是平凡的生活、平凡的工作，人們就會對這個詞望而卻步。

We have a very hierarchical system of values, really, which is that the extraordinary is good and the ordinary is boring and awful.

實際上，我們有一套等級森嚴的價值觀體系，那就是非凡的就是好的，平凡的就是無聊的、糟糕的。

I think that some of the most beautiful moments are those when people can accept the ordinary.

我認為，一些最美麗的時刻就是人們能夠接受平凡的時刻。

If you think of some of your happiest moments, maybe in childhood, maybe in a relationship or with a friend, they often are things that are very ordinary.

如果你回想一下自己最快樂的時光，也許是童年，也許是戀愛，也許是和朋友在一起，這些時光往往都是非常平凡的。

We sat down at the kitchen table and we drew some sunflowers, and it was nice, as a child, maybe, even as an adult.

我們坐在廚房的桌子旁，畫了一些向日葵，那感覺很好，作為一個孩子，也許，甚至作為一個成年人。

Some of the greatest works of art actually depicting very ordinary moments.

一些最偉大的藝術作品實際上描繪的是非常平凡的瞬間。

We're on a hunt for things that are ecstatic.

我們正在尋找令人欣喜若狂的事物。

And though they have their place, we can't live on the summit.

雖然它們有自己的位置，但我們不能生活在山頂上。

And making ourselves at home there is one of the challenges.

讓自己在那裡賓至如歸是挑戰之一。

It's interesting you say about sitting with yourself.

你說的 "和自己坐在一起 "很有意思。

I think we all, all listeners probably, will have this issue as well.

我想我們所有人，可能所有聽眾，也都會遇到這個問題。

Sometimes we're sitting on a train and we think, I can't bear to be here.

有時，我們坐在火車上，會想，我真不忍心待在這裡。

And the difficult thing is that when we say we're suffering from anxiety, what is anxiety?

困難的是，當我們說自己患有焦慮症時，什麼是焦慮症？

Anxiety is often a worry that doesn't know itself, that we're fleeing.

焦慮往往是一種不自知的擔憂，是我們在逃避。

And it gets worse and worse because we're running away so much.

情況越來越糟，因為我們經常逃避。

And the difficult but really important thing to do is to turn around and go, OK, I'm going to be brave.

要做的最困難但最重要的事情就是轉過身去，說："好吧，我要勇敢一點。

I'm just going to think about what I'm actually worried about.

我只想想想我到底在擔心什麼。

So a pen and paper can come in handy and just a quiet room.

是以，紙筆和一個安靜的房間就能派上用場。

And another very useful exercise which a therapist taught me is automatic writing.

治療師教給我的另一個非常有用的練習是自動寫作。

You set yourself a challenge of, as it were, downloading your brain, just writing whatever is in your mind for two minutes.

你要給自己設定一個挑戰，就像下載大腦一樣，在兩分鐘內寫下你腦海中的任何東西。

So you set yourself the task, just get a pen and paper, just write anything.

所以，你要給自己定下任務，拿起筆和紙，隨便寫什麼都行。

And what tends to happen is that you find out things about yourself.

這樣做的結果往往是，你會發現一些關於自己的事情。

If you told me to go do automatic writing and just write down my thoughts and just do it, whatever came into mind, I would almost lean into, oh, I've got to think about something, so therefore I'm going to write.

如果你讓我去自動寫作，把我的想法寫下來，就這麼做，不管想到什麼，我幾乎都會傾向於：哦，我得想點什麼，所以我要寫。

How do you separate yourself from not thinking?

如何將自己與不思考區分開來？

Because what you're saying is, don't think, but think.

因為你的意思是，不要去想，而是要去思考。

Well, most of the time we become enemies to ourselves because we're so concerned with seeming normal to ourselves.

大多數時候，我們會與自己為敵，因為我們太在意自己看起來是否正常。

So we're sitting there with our own mind and we think, well, I should be having this sort of thought because after all I'm a sort of normal person.

所以，我們坐在那裡，用自己的思維去想，嗯，我應該有這樣的想法，因為畢竟我是一個有點正常的人。

But the truth is we're all far weirder than we can acknowledge.

但事實上，我們都比我們自己承認的要古怪得多。

And in that weirdness are some very important realizations.

在這種怪異中，有一些非常重要的認識。

We don't love and hate as it's entirely, inverted commas, normal to do so.

我們不愛，也不恨，因為這樣做完全是正常的。

So take our feelings towards our parents, for example.

就拿我們對父母的感情來說吧。

Many people feel an incredible desire to be very loyal to their parents.

許多人都有一種非常想忠於自己父母的強烈願望。

But actually people's true feelings towards their parents tend to be colored by a far wider range of emotions.

但實際上，人們對父母的真實情感往往受到更廣泛情感的影響。

We shouldn't allow that into consciousness.

我們不應該讓這種想法進入我們的意識。

But if we don't allow it into consciousness, sometimes there can be buildup of anxiety.

但如果我們不允許它進入意識，有時就會積聚焦慮。

You know the old thing that sometimes you catch yourself in a rage with a household object.

你知道有句老話，有時你會在憤怒時用一件家用物品抓住自己。

The drawer doesn't open and you think, damn it, why doesn't it open?

抽屜打不開，你會想，該死的，為什麼打不開？

It's probably not the drawer or the milk bottle.

And what tends to happen there is that somewhere along the way, the source of your true anger has become foreign to you.

在這種情況下，往往會出現這樣的情況：在某個地方，你真正憤怒的根源已經變得陌生了。

You've lost touch with the anger that you actually feel.

你已經失去了自己真正感受到的憤怒。

Normally because you feel you don't have the right to that emotion.

通常是因為你覺得自己無權擁有這種情感。

Now I'm not advocating for some random fury with everyone.

現在，我並不主張對所有人隨意發火。

And obviously anger does need to be contained.

But the acknowledgement of anger is a different thing.

You might find that someone at work really angered you by something that they said.

你可能會發現，工作中的某個人說的話真的激怒了你。

Now again, I'm not saying you necessarily always have to tell them.

再說一遍，我並不是說你一定要告訴他們。

But for you to tell yourself is really important.

但是，讓你自己告訴自己才是最重要的。

Something saddened us and we don't know that they've saddened us.

有些事情讓我們難過，而我們卻不知道他們讓我們難過。

And the thing that we know is depression.

If you look at it clinically, what depression tends to be is a sadness or a trauma that has forgotten itself.

如果從臨床角度看，抑鬱症往往是一種悲傷或創傷，它已經忘記了自己。

And so people are, you know, the opposite of a kind of, not the opposite, but the twin of depression is what they call mourning.

是以，人們，你知道，與抑鬱症相反的，不是相反，而是孿生，就是人們所說的哀悼。

So in mourning, something or someone has been lost and you go into a period of sadness that has a beginning, middle and an end.

是以，在哀悼中，你失去了某件事或某個人，你會進入一段有開始、中間和結束的悲傷時期。

In depression, you're also sad about something, but you don't know what it is.

在抑鬱症中，你也會因為某些事情而悲傷，但你不知道那是什麼。

And therefore it can be endless because it hasn't been found by your own mind.

是以，它可能是無窮無盡的，因為它還沒有被你自己的思想所發現。

Our minds and our bodies don't understand themselves.

我們的思想和身體都不瞭解自己。

And it's so odd because we have a name and we have an identity and I might say to you, you know, what do you think about that?

這太奇怪了，因為我們有一個名字，我們有一個身份，我可能會對你說，你知道，你對此怎麼看？

And most of the time you'd be able to tell me.

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對話：阿蘭-德波頓與傑米-萊恩談偉大的公司 (In Conversation: Alain de Botton on Great Company with Jamie Laing)

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