Today I'm speaking with Karen Dunn.

今天我採訪的是凱倫-鄧恩。

Karen is one of the United States top trial lawyers and debate prep specialists for the presidential and vice presidential debates.

凱倫是美國頂級出庭律師之一，也是總統和副總統辯論的辯論準備專家。

She's a litigating partner at Paul Weiss in New York, one of the country's most prestigious law firms.

她是紐約 Paul Weiss 律師事務所的訴訟合夥人，該事務所是美國最負盛名的律師事務所之一。

Karen is widely recognized for her courtroom victories and is primarily known for being highly skilled at crisis management.

凱倫因其在法庭上的勝利而廣受讚譽，並主要以擅長危機管理而聞名。

Her clients vary from companies, high profile individuals, and executives.

她的客戶包括公司、知名人士和高管。

Karen went to Brown University and Yale Law School.

凱倫曾就讀於布朗大學和耶魯法學院。

She then went to Washington as a judicial clerk for Judge Merrick Garland and Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer.

隨後，她前往華盛頓擔任梅里克-加蘭法官和最高法院大法官斯蒂芬-佈雷耶的司法助理。

After her clerkships, Karen worked in the Obama White House as associate counsel to the president.

擔任書記員後，凱倫在奧巴馬白宮擔任總統助理顧問。

Karen has been the go-to person for debate prep for several leading Democrats.

凱倫是幾位主要民主黨人辯論準備工作的得力助手。

She has prepared President Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Vice President Kamala Harris for presidential and vice presidential debates.

她曾為巴拉克-奧巴馬總統、希拉里-克林頓、卡馬拉-哈里斯副總統的總統和副總統辯論做準備。

In private practice at Paul Weiss, Karen has been leading trial counsel for some of America's leading companies such as Apple, Uber, Amazon, and Oracle.

在 Paul Weiss 律師事務所從事私人執業期間，凱倫一直是蘋果、優步、亞馬遜和甲骨文等美國領先公司的主要出庭律師。

Karen, thank you so much for being here.

卡倫，非常感謝你能來這裡。

Thanks for having me.

謝謝你邀請我。

So your mother was a lawyer and legal counsel at a public company when really very few women held such positions.

所以，你的母親是一家上市公司的律師和法律顧問，而當時很少有女性擔任這樣的職位。

What made you want to follow her in her footsteps?

是什麼讓你想追隨她的腳步？

Actually, originally I decided that I didn't want to follow her because I had worked for a summer during high school at her law firm and I just thought it was really boring because my job at the law firm in the summer was very boring.

事實上，最初我決定不想跟著她，是因為我高中時曾在她的律師事務所工作過一個暑假，我覺得那真的很無聊，因為我暑假在律師事務所的工作非常無聊。

And so I just decided I was never going to be a lawyer.

於是，我決定永遠不做律師。

And then later in life, I realized actually being a lawyer is very interesting and you get to think about interesting issues and help people solve problems.

後來在生活中，我意識到做一名律師其實非常有趣，你可以思考有趣的問題，幫助人們解決問題。

And that was very appealing to me.

這對我很有吸引力。

So sad to say I did not actually intend to follow my mother's footsteps, but as we all do, ultimately we turn into our mothers.

很遺憾地說，我其實並不想追隨母親的腳步，但我們都是這樣，最終我們變成了母親。

It's so true.

說得太對了。

You turned out to be great at practicing law.

你原來在法律實踐方面很出色。

You've had many professional achievements, one of which is that you were a clerk for Judge Merrick Garland, which is an extremely coveted position.

您在職業上取得了很多成就，其中之一就是您曾擔任梅里克-加蘭法官的書記員，這是一個非常令人羨慕的職位。

You clerked for him when he was a U.S.

當他還是美國總統時，你曾是他的書記員。

Circuit Judge for the D.C.

華盛頓特區巡迴法官

Judge Garland to be Attorney General.

加蘭法官將出任司法部長。

What was your time like clerking for Judge Garland?

你為加蘭法官做書記員的那段時間是怎樣的？

Well, so I love clerking for Judge Garland and I remain close to him.

我喜歡為加蘭法官做書記員，我和他關係很好。

He is not just a fantastic judge, but a wonderful person and a wonderful, wonderful mentor.

他不僅是一位出色的評審，還是一位出色的人和出色的導師。

He has a group of former clerks who are very loyal to him and very close to each other.

他有一群對他非常忠誠的前辦事員，他們之間的關係也非常親密。

And I think he really trained us to be some of the best memories of the clerkship are, you know, he had a standing desk in his office and his office overlooked the Capitol building.

我覺得他真的把我們訓練成了辦事員，最美好的回憶是，他的辦公室裡有一張站立式辦公桌，他的辦公室可以俯瞰國會大廈。

So the standing desk was right at the window and you would stand him right next to him.

是以，站立桌就在窗邊，你可以讓他站在旁邊。

And he would go over every word of a draft opinion and every punctuation mark to make sure that they were exactly right and exactly what he wanted to convey.

他會仔細檢查意見書草案的每一個字和每一個標點符號，確保它們完全正確，完全符合他想要表達的意思。

And he really taught us not just about how to ask the important questions and think big thoughts, but also to pay an incredible amount of attention to the details and to make sure that we got everything right.

他教給我們的不僅僅是如何提出重要的問題和進行深層次的思考，還教會了我們如何關注細節，確保我們做的每一件事都是正確的。

Was that something you didn't expect?

這是你始料未及的嗎？

You know, I didn't know what to expect.

你知道，我不知道該期待什麼。

I mean, when you go into a clerkship with a judge, you generally don't know them beforehand.

我的意思是，當你在法官身邊做書記員時，你一般不會事先了解他們。

You know, you've heard about them.

你知道，你聽說過他們。

So I did have professors in law school who told me that the judge and I would become, you know, great friends and that it would be, you know, incredible learning experience to clerk for him.

法學院的教授告訴我，法官和我會成為很好的朋友，為他做書記員將是一次難得的學習經歷。

And it was, but, you know, I going in, you know, as a recent law school graduate, you don't really know what to expect.

是的，但是，你知道，我剛從法學院畢業，不知道會遇到什麼。

I can imagine that.

我能想象得到。

So one of the other things that you've achieved is that you have become the go-to person for presidential debate preparations.

你的另一個成就是，你已成為總統辯論準備工作的最佳人選。

You've led the vice presidential and presidential debate prep for figures such as president Barack Obama, vice-president Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton.

你曾為巴拉克-奧巴馬總統、卡馬拉-哈里斯副總統、希拉里-克林頓等人主持過副總統和總統辯論的準備工作。

And in an article with Politico, which I have right here, you and your partner Ron Klain were named two of the most experienced debate prep specialists in democratic politics.

在 "政治 "雜誌的一篇文章中，你和你的搭檔羅恩-克萊恩（Ron Klain）被評為民主政治中最有經驗的兩位辯論準備專家。

Now, a presidential debate preparation is something that's quite far removed from the lives of, you know, normal people.

總統辯論的準備工作與普通人的生活相去甚遠。

How do you prepare a presidential candidate for a debate like that?

如何讓總統候選人為這樣的辯論做好準備？

I mean, it's possible that we're the leading people because nobody else wants to do it.

我的意思是，有可能我們是領頭人，因為沒人願意做。

It's, you know, I think debate prep is sort of a niche activity.

你知道，我認為辯論準備是一種利基活動。

It is very multidisciplinary.

它涉及多個學科。

And by that, I mean, you have to understand the substance of the entire range of policy issues that could come up at a debate.

我的意思是，你必須瞭解辯論中可能出現的所有政策問題的實質。

You also have to understand communications because ultimately you're helping a candidate get out there and speak to an incredibly large audience.

你還必須瞭解溝通，因為最終你是在幫助候選人走出去，與大量閱聽人交流。

Debates get the second largest audience to the Super Bowl.

辯論賽的觀眾人數僅次於超級碗。

So it's usually somewhere between 60 and 90 million people, which is an And you also have to know how to run a really excellent professional process to get the person prepared to ultimately stand on the stage, which involves working with the debate commission.

是以，通常會有 6000 萬到 9000 萬觀眾，這是一個非常大的數字，而且你還必須知道如何運行一個非常出色的專業流程，讓人們做好最終站在舞臺上的準備，這涉及到與辯論委員會的合作。

It involves working with other advisors.

這需要與其他顧問合作。

It involves working with the campaign.

它涉及到與運動的合作。

So I do view it as a pretty holistic experience and pretty intense for a period of about six weeks to two months in September and October of an election year.

是以，我認為這是一次相當全面的經歷，在選舉年的 9 月和 10 月的大約六週到兩個月的時間裡相當緊張。

And what are three essential things that a successful presidential debate preparation should include?

成功的總統辯論準備工作應包括哪三項基本內容？

Well, first and most importantly is practice.

首先，最重要的是練習。

So the way that we prepare for debates is we have mock debates.

是以，我們準備辯論的方式就是進行模擬辯論。

And the point of the mock debate is so the candidate gets used to being in the format, since most people don't run around in their general life, including presidential candidates debating in that kind of format.

模擬辯論的目的是讓候選人習慣這種形式，因為大多數人在平時生活中不會到處跑，包括總統候選人也不會以這種形式進行辯論。

And so you have someone play the moderator and you have somebody play the opponent.

於是，有人扮演主持人，有人扮演對手。

And those people have a really important responsibility, which is they have to really be accurate predictors of what the real moderator and the real opponent are going to do and say.

這些人有一個非常重要的責任，那就是他們必須準確預測真正的主持人和真正的對手會做什麼、說什麼。

So I would say the first lesson is practice, practice, practice.

是以，我認為第一課就是練習、練習、再練習。

The second lesson really has to do with your mindset and your demeanor.

第二課其實與你的心態和舉止有關。

So I really think some large portion of success at a debate is your demeanor and the mindset with which you walk on the stage, because you can be saying all the right substance, but if you're not communicating through your attitude and your presence that you are confident and capable enough to be president, then people won't feel that you are.

是以，我真的認為，辯論成功與否很大程度上取決於你的舉止以及你走上舞臺時的心態，因為你可以說所有正確的內容，但如果你沒有通過你的態度和風采傳達出你有足夠的自信和能力成為總統，那麼人們就不會覺得你是總統。

So I think that's also very important.

是以，我認為這一點也非常重要。

So I would say practice, demeanor, and then I think general preparation and the ability to predict what's to happen in the moment is also very important.

是以，我會說練習、舉止，然後我認為總體準備和預測當下會發生什麼的能力也非常重要。

Okay, so those three things.

好吧，就這三件事。

And what advice would you give to listeners at home that they could implement into debates of their own?

您對國內聽眾有什麼建議，可以在他們自己的辯論中實施？

Do you mean if you're going to host your own home debate?

你是說如果你要在自己家裡舉辦辯論會嗎？

Right.

對

So let's say a father and daughter having a debate around the kitchen table or two friends with opposing views, what tips or advice would you give to them so they can streamline their debates?

比方說，一對父女在廚房的餐桌上爭論不休，或者兩個朋友意見相左，你會給他們什麼提示或建議，讓他們能夠簡化辯論？

Well, I think it's very important to listen to what the other person is saying.

我認為傾聽對方的意見非常重要。

And this is also a lesson that a lot of lawyers learn in, for example, in cross-examination at trial and taking depositions is you really have to listen to what the other person is saying, because that will help you understand how you're going to win.

這也是很多律師在庭審交叉詢問和取證時學到的一課，例如，你真的必須傾聽對方在說什麼，因為這將有助於你瞭解如何取勝。

One person just isn't listening or isn't hearing what the other person has to say.

一個人只是沒有在聽，或者沒有聽到另一個人要說什麼。

But a debate is really different than a conversation across a kitchen table for one very important reason, which is you're not in a debate at your kitchen table.

但辯論與廚房餐桌上的談話確實不同，這其中有一個非常重要的原因，那就是你不是在廚房餐桌上進行辯論。

Sometimes you're trying to persuade the other person, but in a presidential debate, you're trying to persuade the audience at home, the voters.

有時你是在試圖說服對方，但在總統辯論中，你是在試圖說服國內的觀眾、選民。

And it's very different to try to persuade one-on-one a person than trying to persuade people who aren't in the room with you and who are at home watching the whole thing happen.

試圖說服一對一的人，與試圖說服那些不在房間裡、在家裡看著整件事發生的人，是截然不同的。

That's a different exercise.

這是不同的練習。

Of course, they're completely different animals.

當然，它們是完全不同的動物。

So one of the people you worked with intensively over the past few years, and I mentioned this before, is Hillary Clinton.

在過去的幾年中，你曾與希拉里-克林頓密切合作，我之前也提到過這一點。

Yes.

是的。

And I'm sure she learned a lot from you, but what are some of the things that you learned from working with Hillary Clinton?

我相信她從你身上學到了很多，但你從與希拉里-克林頓的合作中學到了什麼？

Well, I learned an immense amount from Hillary.

我從希拉里身上學到了很多東西。

I worked for her for quite some time.

我為她工作過一段時間。

And she, as has been widely reported, really has an extremely loyal group of former staff who were not just close to her, but also really close to each other and very supportive of one another.

而且，正如廣泛報道的那樣，她確實擁有一批極其忠誠的前工作人員，他們不僅與她關係密切，而且彼此非常親密，相互支持。

And I think Hillary, I saw many occasions, but the occasion that comes to mind more than any others is in the aftermath of the attacks on 9-11, when she was the senator from New York.

我覺得希拉里，我看到過很多場合，但我最能想到的場合是在 "9-11 "襲擊之後，當時她還是紐約州的參議員。

And I just saw true, genuine, and organic leadership in how she acted.

我從她的行為中看到了真實、真誠和有機的領導力。

I remember actually on the day of the attacks, the senators felt it was very important to return to the Capitol to demonstrate that the business of our democracy goes on.

實際上，我記得在襲擊當天，參議員們認為返回國會大廈以表明我們的民主事業仍在繼續是非常重要的。

And I remember being there with Senator Clinton at the time, and watching all the other senators really circle around her and gravitate towards her.

我記得當時我和克林頓參議員在一起，看著所有其他參議員都圍著她轉，向她靠攏。

She had been the first lady, she was a senator from New York, and everybody wanted to hear what she had to say and what she thought should happen.

她曾是第一夫人，又是紐約的參議員，每個人都想聽聽她想說什麼，她認為應該發生什麼。

And it was just a moment of true, organic leadership that we don't see all the time.

這是一個真正的、有機的領導力時刻，我們並不是總能看到這樣的時刻。

So that answer actually ties into another question I wanted to ask you, which is that you've been around the world's most powerful leaders, entrepreneurs, business owners, politicians.

是以，這個答案實際上與我想問你的另一個問題有關，那就是你身邊有世界上最有權勢的領導人、企業家、企業主和政治家。

Is there one characteristic or quality that all these people have in common?

這些人有什麼共同的特點或品質嗎？

I think one quality they have is confidence and a belief in their own vision and in themselves.

我認為，他們擁有的一種品質就是自信，以及對自己的願景和自身的信念。

And I think you need to have that in order to go out and lead other people.

我認為，你必須具備這一點，才能走出去上司其他人。

I think another quality that all of these people have that who I've worked with is really this capacity to listen to what people are saying to them.

我認為，與我共事過的這些人都具備的另一個特質，就是能夠傾聽別人對他們說的話。

And sometimes it's important to listen to your advisors, who might have a different viewpoint than you do.

有時，聽取顧問的意見也很重要，因為他們的觀點可能與你不同。

And sometimes it's important to listen to the public, to your constituents, to voters, and hear what's really on their mind.

有時，傾聽公眾、選民和投票人的心聲也很重要。

And the people who I've seen be most successful are the people who really get energy and joy out of interacting with other people and hearing what they have to say and empathizing with them.

我所見過的最成功的人，都是那些真正能從與他人的互動中獲得能量和快樂的人，他們能傾聽他人的心聲，與他人產生共鳴。

That's something I really admire in the public figures that I've gotten to work with and for.

我非常欽佩那些與我共事的公眾人物。

Interesting.

有意思

So in the article with Politico, which I referenced earlier, you mentioned that one of the things that litigation and presidential debate preparation have in common is persuasion.

所以，在我之前提到的那篇與 Politico 合作的文章中，你提到訴訟和總統辯論準備工作的共同點之一就是說服。

Now, I was wondering, how much of your work would you say is persuasion?

現在，我想知道，你的工作中有多少是說服？

Well, so I am, as a litigator, an incredible amount of my own work is persuasion, both through writing and through oral advocacy.

是以，作為一名訴訟律師，我的大量工作都是通過寫作和口頭辯護進行說服。

And sometimes you're persuading your own colleagues to look at something the way that you look at it.

有時，你要說服自己的同事以你的方式看待問題。

Sometimes you're persuading a court, a judge, or a jury.

有時，你要說服法庭、法官或陪審團。

And I think I've always been a real lover of language and how to put words together in a way that will resonate with people who you might not have anything in common with.

我覺得自己一直都很喜歡語言，也很喜歡如何把文字組合在一起，讓那些可能與你沒有任何共同語言的人產生共鳴。

And that's certainly the case when I go to talk to a jury, who are people from different backgrounds.

當我去與來自不同背景的陪審員交談時，情況當然也是如此。

You have to really figure out, what am I going to say that somebody will find important or interesting or memorable?

你必須真正想清楚，我要說什麼才能讓別人覺得重要、有趣或難忘？

So I think a lot about that.

所以我想了很多。

But so hearing that, I wonder, would you be able to effectively persuade the opposition if you weren't quite sure that your client had the better argument?

但聽到這裡，我不禁要問，如果你不太確定你的委託人有更好的論據，你能有效地說服對方嗎？

Well, I don't know.

我也不知道。

I mean, maybe this is you just get Stockholm syndrome, but I like to think cases I'm working on, we always have the better argument.

我的意思是，也許這是你得了斯德哥爾摩綜合症，但我喜歡認為我正在處理的案件，我們總是有更好的論據。

And I do think part of it is, you have to really believe in what you're talking about.

我認為其中一部分原因是，你必須真正相信自己在說什麼。

You have to believe in what you're trying to get other people to believe in.

你必須相信你想讓別人相信的東西。

And I do think people can sometimes tell if you don't genuinely believe in what you're saying.

而且我認為，如果你不是真心相信自己所說的話，人們有時也能分辨出來。

I think sometimes that comes across.

我覺得有時候會有這種感覺。

So I saw some interviews online where you talk about the Charlottesville trial.

我在網上看到一些採訪，你談到了夏洛茨維爾的審判。

And that definitely sounds like something that you are very passionate about and you feel very strongly about.

這聽起來肯定是你非常熱衷的事情，而且你對此有強烈的感受。

Can you tell us something about that trial?

能給我們講講那次審判嗎？

So well, so for some background, along with another lawyer, we brought a lawsuit against the white supremacists and neo-Nazis responsible for the violence in Charlottesville, Virginia in 2017.

是以，我們與另一名律師一起，對2017年弗吉尼亞州夏洛茨維爾暴力事件的白人至上主義者和新納粹分子提起訴訟。

And our case goes to trial this October, begins October 25th.

我們的案件將於今年 10 月開庭審理，從 10 月 25 日開始。

And what we've alleged in this case is that the violence in Charlottesville was not an accident.

在這起案件中，我們聲稱夏洛茨維爾的暴力事件並非偶然。

It was meticulously planned and premeditated and carried out in a way that obviously ended in the death of Heather Heyer, but also the injuries of many other people, some of whom are the people who we represent in our lawsuit.

這起事件經過精心策劃和預謀，以希瑟-海耶（Heather Heyer）的死亡和許多其他人的受傷為結局，其中一些人就是我們在訴訟中的代理律師。

And so I do feel very strongly about it.

是以，我對此深有感觸。

I don't think planning to do racially motivated violence and then executing on that violence is something that's permitted by the laws of our country.

我認為，計劃實施出於種族動機的暴力，然後再付諸實施，是我國法律所不允許的。

And I think it will be very important for us to go before a jury in the Western District of Virginia and hopefully get a jury verdict that this is not acceptable.

我認為，在弗吉尼亞州西區的陪審團面前，希望陪審團能做出裁決，認為這是不可接受的，這對我們來說非常重要。

I hope so too.

我也希望如此。

Last question already.

已經是最後一個問題了。

What advice would you give to the next generation of women entrepreneurs and women leaders?

您對下一代女企業家和女領導人有什麼建議？

Mainly I'm just say, go for it.

我主要是想說，去吧。

I mean, I'm so excited to see the next generation of women entrepreneurs and leaders.

我的意思是，看到下一代女性企業家和領導者，我感到非常興奮。

I think, you know, there are more women in leadership positions in business and in government now than there ever were, which is still not enough.

我認為，你知道，現在在企業和政府中擔任領導職務的女性比以往任何時候都多，但這仍然不夠。

And I, you know, I think the more the better, frankly.

老實說，我覺得越多越好。

And, you know, I just have been, I've been really happy because at this point I'm old enough that some of the people I worked with in the government are now running for office or they've been elected to office or they're in very, you know, high appointed positions in the government.

而且，你知道，我一直都很高興，因為此時此刻，我已經足夠老了，我在政府中共事過的一些人現在正在競選公職，或者他們已經當選公職，或者他們在政府中擔任了非常高的任命職位。

And it's just so fantastic to see that happen.

看到這種情況發生，真是太棒了。

And so I, you know, the main thing is I just want, you know, people to feel that they can do it, you know, because it's the hardest thing to do to decide to put yourself out there.

所以，我，你知道，最主要的是，我只是希望，你知道，人們覺得他們可以做到這一點，你知道，因為決定把自己放在那裡是最難的事情。

But the more people do it, the better it is for everybody.

但做的人越多，對大家都越好。

So the main message is have confidence.

是以，主要的資訊就是要有信心。

Yes, have confidence, be bold and, you know, and know that you're supporting all of us.

是的，要有信心，要大膽，要知道，你在支持我們所有人。

I mean, we, you know, I think we're, we all feel supported when women run for office and women in the boardroom and women CEOs and people who will put themselves out there.

我的意思是，我們，你知道的，我認為，當女性競選公職、女性進入董事會、女性首席執行官以及願意把自己擺出來的人時，我們都會感到受到支持。

I think it's, you know, it's not easy and sometimes very hard, but I think the benefit is it's, you know, it's supporting other women now and frankly, all the ones who come next.

我認為，你知道，這並不容易，有時甚至非常艱難，但我認為這樣做的好處是，你知道，它支持了現在的其他女性，而且坦率地說，支持了接下來的所有女性。

On that note, thank you so much, Karen, for being a guest today.

在此，非常感謝凱倫做客今天的節目。

Thank you for having me.

謝謝你們邀請我。

I love this.

我喜歡這個。