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  • Nicaragua!

  • You probably haven't heard about how crazy things have gotten

  • And China has a hand in it

  • Welcome to China Uncensored,

  • I'm Chris Chappell.

  • So, I interviewed my first terrorist.

  • At least, that's what the dictator of Nicaragua,

  • Daniel Ortega calls him.

  • At the Oslo Freedom Forum,

  • I sat down with Felix Maradiaga.

  • He's an academic and political activist in Nicaragua.

  • Back in September 2018,

  • he spoke at the UN Security Council about how the Ortega regime

  • brutally represses Nicaragua's people.

  • Afterwards, the Ortega regime issued a warrant for Maradiaga's arrest.

  • They accused himorganized crime and financing of terrorism.”

  • Riiiight.

  • In fact, Maradiaga was attacked by a mob of 50 Ortega supporters

  • and had to be hospitalized.

  • Now I'm betting a lot of you watching

  • probably don't know much about the situation in Nicaragua.

  • The country rarely makes it into the US news.

  • But there is one country that really cares about Nicaragua

  • and that's China.

  • The Chinese Communist Party has its fingerprints all over Nicaragua.

  • And Felix Maradiaga joined me in Oslo to give the rundown.

  • Thank you for joining us today, Felix.

  • Thank you for the invitation.

  • Absolutely.

  • So, for those watching who don't really know much about Nicaragua,

  • can you tell us what the political situation is like there?

  • It's very complex at this point.

  • The Daniel Ortega regime

  • has closed any possibility for peaceful protest.

  • There are about 400 people in prison,

  • just for exercising their constitutional right to protest.

  • Basically, we live in a police state.

  • But isn't he a president?

  • Doesn't that mean it's a Democracy?

  • Well, that's the problem with dictatorships.

  • I call them dictatorships 2.0;

  • because they have been able,

  • many of them,

  • to bend the rules,

  • which have been developed for Democracy,

  • to pretend they are Democratic Regimes.

  • And Daniel Ortega came to power in 2007 again,

  • due to a very strange reform in the Constitution,

  • that allowed him to be elected.

  • But in any case,

  • in 2011 he was re-elected against the Constitution.

  • So, our argument,

  • as we have presented to the organization of American states,

  • is that he is not a legitimate president under our Constitution.

  • Well, I coined a term that I use to describe the leader of China.

  • Not quite a president, not quite a dictator.

  • A “presitator”.

  • So, if you would like to usepresitatorto describe Ortega,

  • I'm perfectly happy with you using [crosstalk]

  • I think it works perfectly,

  • and that should be a red flag for Democracies around the world.

  • I like to use the painful situation of Nicaragua

  • to make a case for Democracies around the world.

  • That when Democracies do not really deliver

  • what the average citizen wants,

  • it opens a door;

  • an opportunity for authoritarian regimes to emerge.

  • So, what's China's role in Nicaragua?

  • The situation in Nicaragua is quite strange,

  • in terms of the relationship with China.

  • Nicaragua is one of the very few countries around

  • the world that actually has diplomatic relationship with Taiwan,

  • not with China.

  • On the other hand, at the political level,

  • it's well known that Nicaragua has ties with China.

  • And, in fact, the flagship project,

  • as Daniel Ortega argues,

  • in terms of foreign investment;

  • it's a canal that is supposed to connect both of the oceans.

  • And that is not an investment from Taiwan,

  • but actually from China.

  • Which, once again, is strange,

  • because we do not have, as a country,

  • a formal relationship with the People's Republic of China.

  • It is clearly a move by the Chinese regime as well,

  • because a project of such size could not be pursued

  • without the support of the Chinese government.

  • They're using, at this point,

  • a company registered in Hong Kong to pursue the project.

  • So, you think China may be trying towooNicaragua?

  • To abandon Taiwan in favor of the Communist Party?

  • I think that, ideologically,

  • that has been a long term project of the Sandinista party.

  • Ideologically, the Sandinista party and China,

  • they've always had a lot in common.

  • When Democracy was re-established in Nicaragua in 1990,

  • during the sixteen years of Democratic transition that we had,

  • Nicaragua developed a close relationship with Taiwan.

  • But I have to say that, unfortunately, even Taiwan,

  • at least in relationship with Nicaragua,

  • has behaved in a very unfortunate way;

  • in the sense that Taiwan,

  • despite many requests,

  • is one of the very few countries

  • that continues to openly support the Daniel Ortega regime.

  • So, we are seeing China and Taiwan

  • competing for Daniel Ortegas' attention.

  • How is the Sandinista party ideologically aligned with China?

  • Well, as you know,

  • the Sandinista party emerged as a classical Marxist party in the 1960s.

  • And in 1979, it became a successful,

  • political military movement that defeated the dictatorship of Somoza.

  • Now, the new version of the Sandinista party,

  • that came back into power under Daniel Ortega in 2007,

  • continues to have the rhetoric of Marxism and Socialism;

  • but in practice, is a very pragmatic regime.

  • It's just one more authoritarian regime

  • that will use rhetoric and one side just to attract allies,

  • but will basically use any tools, any ally,

  • to pursue its objectives.

  • Well, it's interesting you say that;

  • because I know the, sort of,

  • Marxist or Communist rhetoric is often used in Latin America,

  • where there is a lot of promises made,

  • but it always seems to end in authoritarianism.

  • Why does that line of reasoning still keep getting used?

  • That's a very interesting question.

  • But I think that a big component of that line,

  • as you clearly define it,

  • is that there is sort of romanticism;

  • Utopia of socialism being closely tied to egalitarian principles.

  • And we have to be very candid in saying that Latin America

  • has been one of the most unequal regions of the world.

  • There is a big issue of poverty.

  • There is a big issue of class struggle in Latin America.

  • And of course,

  • the narrative of Marxism continues to be very compelling,

  • at the narrative level.

  • But in practice, it's a system of dominance

  • that doesn't really provide freedoms for the individuals.

  • And in countries where levels of education are so low,

  • that type of populistic rhetoric becomes really dangerous.

  • So, I think that, in the case of Nicaragua,

  • as in many other underdeveloped parts of the world,

  • the only tool to fight that kind of lines is through education.

  • When people are well informed,

  • and when people have the basic tools

  • to pursue employment and health and basic rights,

  • populism, and particularly Marxism, doesn't have any chances.

  • So it's basically,

  • in Latin America it's still a fertile ecosystem

  • for this type of narrative,

  • because of our inequality and low levels of education.

  • Well, so with the Nicaragua canal,

  • I know that seems to have stopped.

  • Correct?

  • Yes.

  • We have seen that many of the initial parts of the projects,

  • such as, for example the environmental impact studies,

  • the meteorological studies as well.

  • And some other engineering studies,

  • they have been stopped at all.

  • Many environmental activists argued,

  • from the very beginning when the project

  • was first mentioned about five years ago,

  • is that this project was never an authentic,

  • legitimate investment.

  • It was always a project that had something fishy,

  • for example, money laundering.

  • For example, something that is quite clear;

  • a project designed to, basically,

  • take away land from indigenous communities,

  • and from the farmers and the campesino communities of Nicaragua.

  • In fact, what we see today in Nicaragua,

  • it is closely connected to what is known as The Campesino Movement;

  • which are the land owners that mobilized in 2013, 2014,

  • against the Chinese project.

  • This movement that emerged,

  • as a land right movement,

  • is closely connected to the peaceful protests

  • that we see in Nicaragua today.

  • So, the Chinese investment in the canal.

  • That didn't do anything to benefit the people of Nicaragua?

  • No, not at all.

  • Not at all.

  • And if you read the law that was approved in record time,

  • so it took very few hours to approve.

  • One of the strangest laws, in terms of investments.

  • The Canal Law has been elevated to the rank of a constitutional law

  • in order to create, almost, a state within a state.

  • So, let's assume that the project will evolve.

  • Basically, the canal area would have been

  • outside of the tax authorities of Nicaragua.

  • It would be outside of the judicial authorities of Nicaragua.

  • So clearly, the Daniel Ortega regime

  • was trying to develop something with the Chinese

  • that went beyond a normal investment.

  • And the land owners actually perceived that,

  • as that's the reason why they mobilized.

  • This project never benefited Nicaraguans.

  • It actually affected and destroyed

  • many of the environmental areas of our country.

  • Well, now that it's been stopped,

  • does that benefit the people of Nicaragua?

  • Well, the people of Nicaragua have always said that

  • we are a country that has open arms to foreign investment,

  • as long as these investments are clean,

  • are legitimate, are under the rule of law,

  • are based on the principles of fair trade and free markets.

  • That's what the Nicaraguan people believe.

  • I mean, we are a country of entrepreneurs,

  • and a country that has suffered many wars,

  • and we understand that investments are important.

  • However, the experience with the Chinese has been very unfortunate.

  • The way in which some teams of Chinese engineers

  • have intervened in private property rights,

  • the way in which the project has been developed

  • with complete lack of transparency,

  • is something that raises a lot of flags.

  • So as we have argued,

  • together with many environmental activists

  • and grassroots leaders and local communities,

  • is that the way this project was designed,

  • it's far from a project that could bring development to Nicaragua.

  • So, is there concern about debt trap diplomacy?

  • Yes.

  • Yes.

  • And it's also a concern of a project that was assigned,

  • as many other projects in Nicaragua

  • that have been developed with Russian money,

  • with Venezuelan money from either the period of Hugo Chavez,

  • or Nicolas Maduro.

  • It's just another project to enrich a family.

  • Another project just to enrich an authoritarian regime

  • that has amassed money as no other regimes in previous times.

  • So, it's not a project aimed at developing the country

  • in terms of attracting employment,

  • and other types of clean investments.

  • Does China provide any military equipment or training?

  • As I said, Nicaragua is a country

  • that does not have a formal relationship with China.

  • So, at least officially, the Chinese are not working;

  • in terms of bringing official corporations

  • to the military or to the police.

  • There are unofficial accounts,

  • and we have strong suspicions

  • that there are some relationships in terms,

  • for example, of espionage,

  • and in terms of collaboration with the regime.

  • But it has been very hard to actually document

  • and prove those suspicions.

  • Okay.

  • What about things like censorship and surveillance?

  • I know there's been, sort of,

  • a push for more internet censorship,

  • more surveillance, facial recognition technology.

  • Is any of that coming from China?

  • It's part of the conversation.

  • In fact, prior to the canal investment project

  • coming into the public eye,

  • there was discussion of a satellite

  • of private investors from Hong Kong;

  • which are closely connected to the same group of people

  • who are investors around this very strange character,

  • Mr. Wang Jing.

  • Who, based on independent media research,

  • is someone who has been, for years,

  • connected to the Chinese military.

  • We have raised this issue to the international community,

  • and it's quite sad that Nicaragua

  • has not been able to attract international attention.

  • What is happening in Nicaragua,

  • with the Chinese presses and with the Russian presses.

  • And just to make a comparison,

  • when we first raise a flag above the Russians,

  • very few people believed it.

  • And now there is a very big Russian presence in Nicaragua,

  • and it started just as the Chinese.

  • Just as rumors;

  • as something that was not very easy to prove.

  • And suddenly, the Russian presence in Nicaragua

  • is deeply ingrained in the political system.

  • So, we want to continue to insist that,

  • despite the fact that we're not seeing concrete Chinese presence

  • in terms of massive investments,

  • or presence in terms of surveillance technology,

  • it is something that is not farfetched at all.

  • So, this is something that could be

  • a National Security Interest for the United States?

  • Absolutely.

  • And so you, as an opposition leader,

  • how does all of this affect you?

  • Well, not as an opposition leader,

  • as a citizen,

  • as a human rights defender.

  • Many years ago, back in 2006,

  • I'd published a paper called China's Side Principle.

  • My argument at that time,

  • based on reviewing many documents from China

  • on how the Chinese government trains their military,

  • their intelligence officials, their diplomats,

  • is that China is not willing to face the United States directly,

  • but through the sides;

  • using what I would call the side principle.

  • And this was back in 2006,

  • looking at the way that China is strengthening its presence at that time,

  • in countries such as Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador;

  • and Nicaragua is just part of that strategy.

  • What really concerns me is the lack of attention

  • that this issue has in Washington.

  • I think that, with all due respect,

  • Washington experts on Latin America

  • are probably too consumed

  • and too focused on many other important issues.

  • But China is a direct threat,

  • not only to the safety of citizens like myself,

  • who believe in free press and who believe in private property

  • and who believe in human rights,

  • but also to any other individual in the hemisphere

  • who believes in Democracy.

  • And this, sort of, lack of foresight on the part of Washington.

  • That goes back several administrations?

  • It's not just the Trump administration?

  • It was Obama, Bush, Clinton?

  • It's been going on a while?

  • It's been going a while.

  • And what I believe,

  • from the perspective of what we do in Nicaragua,

  • in addition to my political,

  • my human rights work,

  • we have been working for over 16 years in public policy.

  • And we have developed several papers on this particular issue,

  • and we have arrived to the conclusion

  • that the Chinese mindset is a long term mindset.

  • I mean China looks at public policy in terms of 50, 60, 70,

  • even 100 years from now.

  • And the Western perspective,

  • it's not only a US problem,

  • it's a problem of the West.

  • We see a public policy in terms of presidential terms, you know?

  • So, it's important that those of us in the Western Hemisphere,

  • who believe in the fundamental principles of Democracy:

  • Freedom of the press,

  • freedom of speech,

  • and in general the Declaration of Human Rights,

  • need to understand that China is not a traditional threat,

  • from the perspective of the Cold War,

  • or anything like that.

  • But it's a threat to freedom,

  • because China is supporting authoritarian movements

  • and authoritarian regimes that actually threaten

  • the principles of the Western Hemisphere.

  • So, what hope is there for people of a country like Nicaragua,

  • where their authoritarian dictator is being backed

  • by an even more powerful authoritarian regime?

  • Well, our hope is that democracies around the world

  • could work together and strengthen our common values,

  • or also our common strategy in protecting human rights.

  • Last year, September 5th, 2018,

  • I was able to present the case of Nicaragua

  • in front of the U.S. Security Council.

  • It was very unfortunate that, clearly,

  • Russia and China were completely opposed to

  • what we suggested at the U.S. Security Council;

  • when we presented that the issues that are happening in Nicaragua,

  • with the close ties of Ortega with Venezuela,

  • with Russia and China,

  • are also a threat that is not only domestic or national in Nicaragua;

  • but it's a threat to the stability of Central America.

  • What we are seeing is a pattern

  • in which authoritarian regimes around the world

  • are closely working together.

  • You see China and Russia collaborating.

  • We have seen the presence of Iran in Latin America,

  • [crosstalk] very close to Nicaragua.

  • We see Venezuela.

  • And we expect that the democracies around the world,

  • and particularly the United States,

  • as the most solid democracy of the industrial world,

  • actually take the leadership that is expected from the U.S.

  • So, its hard to get support in the U.N.

  • when Russia and China play such a large role in it.

  • Indeed.

  • And that is a problem in which the U.S. system has been designed.

  • Once again,

  • it comes back to the basic principle of human rights;

  • when farmers in Nicaragua have been displaced

  • because of Chinese investments,

  • when indigenous communities in Nicaragua

  • are being displaced of threatened in their community rights

  • because of the Chinese presence.

  • These are not only a problem

  • related to local grassroots communities of Nicaragua.

  • It's actually a threat to the stability of a region,

  • and to the fundamental principles

  • that have been developed within the Western Hemisphere,

  • particularly on the democratic charter of the O.A.S.

  • This is something that we are also elevating to the O.A.S.

  • And we are expecting the leadership of the U.S. to also be present,

  • not only at the U.N., but at the original forum,

  • such as the O.A.S.

  • So, what happens if China is left unopposed in Latin America?

  • I think that that is the same question,

  • and not to exaggerate,

  • it would be the same question that many people asked many,

  • many decades ago;

  • when Germany was not seen as a problem

  • during the first years of the Nazi regime.

  • We have seen that when any authoritarian regime

  • that has resources, power,

  • global presence are left without a balance of power,

  • democracies are challenged,

  • and human beings pay a huge price.

  • So, I hope that not only the United States, but the world,

  • would understand that having such a massive global power

  • that is not a democracy is a problem.

  • Not only for my country,

  • which is a small country in Central America,

  • it's actually a problem for the world.

  • Have we seen a case in which two major global powers

  • can cooperate if one of those powers is not a democracy?

  • I think that's the biggest question.

  • This is not only an issue of Nicaragua,

  • it's an issue for the global stability of Earth.

  • All right.

  • Thank you very much for joining me.

  • Thank you.

  • Thank you.

  • I'm glad that we spoke about something

  • that is not very much addressed.

  • Unfortunately.

  • Once again, thank you very much.

  • It's been a pleasure, okay.

  • Absolutely.

Nicaragua!

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