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Here's a question we need to rethink together:
現在有個問題需要我們一起反思
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What should be the role of money
金錢和市場在我們的社會中
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and markets in our societies?
該扮演什麼角色?
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Today, there are very few things
現今,還有幾樣東西
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that money can't buy.
是金錢買不到的
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If you're sentenced to a jail term
如果你在加州聖巴巴拉
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in Santa Barbara, California,
被判處有期徒刑
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you should know
你該知道
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that if you don't like the standard accommodations,
如你不喜歡標準規格的住宿設施
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you can buy a prison cell upgrade.
可花錢把牢房升級
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It's true. For how much, do you think?
這是真的,你們認為需要多少錢?
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What would you guess?
你猜猜看?
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Five hundred dollars?
500 美元?
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It's not the Ritz-Carlton. It's a jail!
這可不是麗思卡爾頓飯店。這是監獄!
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Eighty-two dollars a night.
每晚 82 元
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Eighty-two dollars a night.
每晚 82 元
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If you go to an amusement park
如果你去遊樂園
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and don't want to stand in the long lines
不想為了熱門的遊樂設施
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for the popular rides,
排隊等候
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there is now a solution.
現在有解決辦法了
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In many theme parks, you can pay extra
在許多主題公園,你能花多點錢
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to jump to the head of the line.
搶到前頭
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They call them Fast Track or VIP tickets.
這叫快速通關走道或 VIP 票
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And this isn't only happening in amusement parks.
這不僅發生在遊樂園
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In Washington, D.C., long lines,
在華盛頓特區
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queues sometimes form
往往也要大排長龍
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for important Congressional hearings.
才可出席重要的國會聽證會
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Now some people don't like to wait in long queues,
現在部分人不喜歡排長隊
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maybe overnight, even in the rain.
也許是通宵的,甚至淋雨
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So now, for lobbyists and others
所以現在那些極渴望
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who are very keen to attend these hearings
參與聽證會的說客和其他人
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but don't like to wait, there are companies,
又不喜歡排隊的,有一些公司
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line-standing companies,
排隊公司
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and you can go to them.
你可找他們
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You can pay them a certain amount of money,
你只須向他們支付若干金額
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they hire homeless people and others who need a job
他們就雇用一些無家可歸人士或需要工作的人
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to stand waiting in the line for as long as it takes,
排隊等候,要等多久就多久
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and the lobbyist, just before the hearing begins,
說客只須在聽證會開始前
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can take his or her place at the head of the line
取代排在前面的人
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and a seat in the front of the room.
並坐在會場的前排位置
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Paid line standing.
付費排隊
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It's happening, the recourse to market mechanisms
在更大的舞臺上,仰賴市場機制
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and market thinking and market solutions,
行銷思維和行銷解決方案
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in bigger arenas.
這是正在發生的事
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Take the way we fight our wars.
看看我們的作戰方式
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Did you know that, in Iraq and Afghanistan,
在伊拉克和阿富汗,你知否
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there were more private military contractors on the ground
私營軍事承包商的數量
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than there were U.S. military troops?
較美國軍隊人數還要多。
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Now this isn't because we had a public debate
現在並非因我們曾公開辯論
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about whether we wanted to outsource war
是否要將戰爭外包
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to private companies,
給私人公司
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but this is what has happened.
而是這已是既成事實
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Over the past three decades,
過去三十多年來
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we have lived through a quiet revolution.
我們度過了一場靜靜的革命
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We've drifted almost without realizing it
我們幾乎難以察覺到
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from having a market economy
經已由市場經濟漸漸
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to becoming market societies.
快要成為市場社會
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The difference is this: A market economy is a tool,
二者的分別在於:市場經濟是一種工具
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a valuable and effective tool,
一種有價值和有效益的工具
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for organizing productive activity,
用以組織生產活動
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but a market society is a place where
但是市場社會是一處地方
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almost everything is up for sale.
那裏差不多所有物件也可供出售
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It's a way of life, in which market thinking
這是一種生活方式
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and market values begin to dominate
行銷思維和市場價值開始主導
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every aspect of life:
生活各個層面
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personal relations, family life, health, education,
個人關係、家庭生活、健康、教育
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politics, law, civic life.
政治、法律、公民生活
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Now, why worry? Why worry about our becoming
現在為什麼要擔心?為何要擔心我們的社會
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market societies?
變成市場社會呢?
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For two reasons, I think.
我認為有兩大原因
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One of them has to do with inequality.
其中一個原因是不平等
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The more things money can buy,
錢能買到的東西越多
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the more affluence, or the lack of it, matters.
富裕程度就變得越重要
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If the only thing that money determined
如果錢只能讓人決定是否
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was access to yachts or fancy vacations or BMWs,
購買遊艇、豪華假期或寶馬
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then inequality wouldn't matter very much.
那麼不平等就沒那麼重要
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But when money comes increasingly to govern
但當金錢越來越能夠支配
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access to the essentials of the good life --
美好生活的元素--
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decent health care, access to the best education,
高品質的醫療保健、最好的教育
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political voice and influence in campaigns --
選舉中的政治發言權和影響力--
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when money comes to govern all of those things,
當金錢支配了一切
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inequality matters a great deal.
不平等就變得非常重要
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And so the marketization of everything
因此,所有事物被市場化後
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sharpens the sting of inequality
凸顯出不平等的問題
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and its social and civic consequence.
及其社會和公民效應
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That's one reason to worry.
這只是一個需要擔心的原因
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There's a second reason
除了對不平等的擔心
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apart from the worry about inequality,
第二個原因
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and it's this:
就是
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with some social goods and practices,
某些社會商品和常規
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when market thinking and market values enter,
當行銷思維和市場價值介入時
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they may change the meaning of those practices
或會因此改變那些常規的意義
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and crowd out attitudes and norms
擠掉值得我們在意的
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worth caring about.
態度和規範
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I'd like to take an example
給大家舉個例子
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of a controversial use of a market mechanism,
關於市場機制運用的爭議
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a cash incentive, and see what you think about it.
金錢獎勵,看看你們怎麼想的
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Many schools struggle with the challenge
許多學校面臨怎樣鼓勵孩子的挑戰
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of motivating kids, especially kids
尤其是
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from disadvantaged backgrounds, to study hard,
來自弱勢背景的孩子,用功讀書
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to do well in school, to apply themselves.
表現良好、努力向上
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Some economists have proposed a market solution:
有些經濟學家建議出一套市場解決方案
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Offer cash incentives to kids for getting good grades
提供金錢獎勵,鼓勵孩子爭取好成績
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or high test scores
或高分
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or for reading books.
或閱讀書籍
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They've tried this, actually.
他們也真的試過這方法
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They've done some experiments
他們在美國一些主要城市
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in some major American cities.
進行過實驗
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In New York, in Chicago, in Washington, D.C.,
紐約、芝加哥、華盛頓特區
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they've tried this, offering 50 dollars for an A,
他們的做法是:成續 A 等給 50 美元
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35 dollars for a B.
成續 B 等給 35 美元
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In Dallas, Texas, they have a program that offers
德州達拉斯有這樣一個計畫
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eight-year-olds two dollars for each book they read.
八歲學童每讀一本書就獎 2 美元
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So let's see what -- Some people are in favor,
讓我們來看看 -- 有些人支持
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some people are opposed to this cash incentive
有些人則反對使用錢
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to motivate achievement.
鼓勵學生取得成就
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Let's see what people here think about it.
讓我們來看看這裡的人的看法
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Imagine that you are the head of a major school system,
假設你是一個主要學區的主管
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and someone comes to you with this proposal.
有人向你提出這建議
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And let's say it's a foundation. They will provide the funds.
假設是一個基金會,他們將會出錢
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You don't have to take it out of your budget.
學校無須負擔費用
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How many would be in favor
有多少人會贊成
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and how many would be opposed to giving it a try?
又多少人會反對試一試?
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Let's see by a show of hands.
透過以舉手方式表決,讓我們來看看
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First, how many think it might at least be worth a try
首先,多少人認為值得一試
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to see if it would work? Raise your hand.
看看是否有效?請舉手
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And how many would be opposed? How many would --
有多少人反對?多少 --
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So the majority here are opposed,
這裡多數人反對
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but a sizable minority are in favor.
但相當一部分的少數也贊成
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Let's have a discussion.
我們來討論一下
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Let's start with those of you who object,
由反對的開始吧
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who would rule it out even before trying.
你們甚至在嘗試之前已排除這可能
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What would be your reason?
你的理由會是什麼呢?
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Who will get our discussion started? Yes?
誰願意帶頭討論?你喔?
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Heike Moses: Hello everyone, I'm Heike,
海克摩西:大家好,我是海克
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and I think it just kills the intrinsic motivation,
我認為它只會抹殺學習的內在動機
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so in the respect that children, if they would like to read,
所以在這方面,如果學童喜歡讀書的話
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you just take this incentive away
你只要把奬勵誘因拿走
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in just paying them, so it just changes behavior.
只給錢,這樣就會改變行為
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Michael Sandel: Takes the intrinsic incentive away.
邁可‧桑德爾:把內在的奬勵誘因拿走
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What is, or should be, the intrinsic motivation?
內在動機是什麼,或該是什麼?
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HM: Well, the intrinsic motivation
HM:內在動機嘛
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should be to learn.
該是學習吧
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MS: To learn. HM: To get to know the world.
MS:去學習HM:為了認識世界
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And then, if you stop paying them, what happens then?
然後如果你停止給他們錢,會發生什麼事?
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Then they stop reading?
他們會否停止閱讀?
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MS: Now, let's see if there's someone who favors,
MS:現在讓我們看看有沒有人贊成
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who thinks it's worth trying this.
誰認為值得試試
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Elizabeth Loftus: I'm Elizabeth Loftus,
伊莉莎白‧羅芙特斯:我是伊莉莎白‧羅芙特斯 (Elizabeth Loftus)
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and you said worth a try, so why not try it
你說值得一試,所以為何不試試
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and do the experiment and measure things?
來做個小實驗並估量一下?
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MS: And measure. And what would you measure?
MS:估量。你會估量些什麼?
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You'd measure how many --
你要估量有多少...
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EL: How many books they read
EL:他們讀了多少本書
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and how many books they continued to read
而當你不給錢後
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after you stopped paying them.
又繼續讀了多少本書
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MS: Oh, after you stopped paying.
MS:噢,你不再給錢以後
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All right, what about that?
好,那又如何?
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HM: To be frank, I just think
HM:老實說,我只認為
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this is, not to offend anyone, a very American way.
我無意冒犯任何人,這是非常美式的作風
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(Laughter) (Applause)
(笑聲) (掌聲)
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MS: All right. What's emerged from this discussion
MS:好,這次討論
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is the following question:
出現了以下問題
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Will the cash incentive drive out or corrupt
金錢獎勵會否侵蝕或擠掉
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or crowd out the higher motivation,
或排擠更較高層面的動機
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the intrinsic lesson that we hope to convey,
我們希望表達的心聲
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which is to learn to love to learn and to read
即是要培養他們學習和閱讀的興趣
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for their own sakes?
是要為他們自己著想?
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And people disagree about what the effect will be,
大家對產生什麼樣的效果持不同意見
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but that seems to be the question,
但這似乎就是問題所在
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that somehow a market mechanism
不知何故市場機制或金錢獎勵
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or a cash incentive teaches the wrong lesson,
是錯誤的教導
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and if it does, what will become of these children later?
如果真的錯了,學童未來會變成怎樣?
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I should tell you what's happened with these experiments.
我該告訴你們這些實驗發生了什麼事情
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The cash for good grades has had very mixed results,
用錢鼓勵學生取得好成績,得出了不同的結果
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for the most part has not resulted in higher grades.
大部分學生的成績不會更好
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The two dollars for each book
閱讀一本書就給兩美元
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did lead those kids to read more books.
確實使那些學童讀更多書
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It also led them to read shorter books.
也使他們看頁數較少的書
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(Laughter)
(笑聲)
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But the real question is,
但真正問題是
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what will become of these kids later?
未來這些孩子會變成怎樣?
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Will they have learned that reading is a chore,
會否認為閱讀是件苦差事
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a form of piecework to be done for pay, that's the worry,
一項按件計酬的工作,那就令人擔心
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or may it lead them to read maybe for the wrong reason initially
或許引領他們開始閱讀時動機不正
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but then lead them to fall in love with reading for its own sake?
但日後引領他們愛上閱讀,因興趣而讀?
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Now, what this, even this brief debate, brings out
現在這簡短的辯論也指出
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is something that many economists overlook.
很多經濟學家忽略的地方
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Economists often assume
經濟學家時常假設
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that markets are inert,
市場是沒有生命的
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that they do not touch or taint the goods they exchange.
不會碰到或沾染進行交易的商品
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Market exchange, they assume,
他們假設市場交易
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doesn't change the meaning or value
不會改變要進行交易的商品
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of the goods being exchanged.
其意義和價值
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This may be true enough
這或者是千真萬確的
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if we're talking about material goods.
如果我們談的是物質產品
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If you sell me a flat screen television
如果你賣給我一部平面電視
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or give me one as a gift,
或送一部給我當禮物
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it will be the same good.
兩者都是同樣的產品
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It will work the same either way.
兩種運作方式也一樣
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But the same may not be true
共同處就並不是正確的
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if we're talking about nonmaterial goods
如果我們談的是非物質產品
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and social practices such as teaching and learning
社會實踐如教學和學習
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or engaging together in civic life.
或共同參與公民生活
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In those domains, bringing market mechanisms
在那些領域,引進市場機制
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and cash incentives may undermine
和金錢獎勵或會削弱
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or crowd out nonmarket values and attitudes
或擠掉我們該關心的
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worth caring about.
非市場價值和態度
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Once we see
一旦我們了解到
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that markets and commerce,
當市場和貿易
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when extended beyond the material domain,
超越物質領域時
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can change the character of the goods themselves,
就可改變商品本身的特性
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can change the meaning of the social practices,
就可改變社會實踐的意義
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as in the example of teaching and learning,
即如教學和學習的例子
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we have to ask where markets belong
我們必須問,哪裡是屬於市場的
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and where they don't,
哪裡不屬於市場
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where they may actually undermine
哪裡事實上破壞了
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values and attitudes worth caring about.
值得我們關心的價值和態度
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But to have this debate,
但是透過此辯論
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we have to do something we're not very good at,
我們必須去做一些不擅長的事情
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and that is to reason together in public
就是一起公開理性的辯論
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about the value and the meaning
我們所珍視的社會實踐
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of the social practices we prize,
其價值和意義
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from our bodies to family life
從我們的身體到家庭生活
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to personal relations to health
到私人關係到健康
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to teaching and learning to civic life.
到公民生活的學習和教學
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Now these are controversial questions,
這些都是具爭議的問題
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and so we tend to shrink from them.
所以我們傾向退縮
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In fact, during the past three decades,
事實上過去 30 年來
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when market reasoning and market thinking
當市場論據和行銷思維
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have gathered force and gained prestige,
凝聚起力量且贏得到聲望
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our public discourse during this time
這段期間我們的公共討論
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has become hollowed out,
變得蕩然無存
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empty of larger moral meaning.
缺乏更深遠的道德意義
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For fear of disagreement, we shrink from these questions.
因為害怕爭論,我們避而不談
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But once we see that markets
不過一旦我們了解到
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change the character of goods,
市場會改變商品的特性
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we have to debate among ourselves
我們就必須討論
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these bigger questions
這些更重要的問題
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about how to value goods.
怎樣給予商品評價
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One of the most corrosive effects
把每樣東西標價
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of putting a price on everything
其中最具腐蝕作用之一
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is on commonality,
就是共通性
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the sense that we are all in it together.
也就是我們全都混在一起的感覺
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Against the background of rising inequality,
在不平等情況與日俱增的背景下
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marketizing every aspect of life
把生活各個層面市場化
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leads to a condition where those who are affluent
導致一個情況,富裕的人
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and those who are of modest means
和過著節制生活的人
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increasingly live separate lives.
逐漸地過著不同的生活
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We live and work and shop and play
我們生活、工作、購物和娛樂
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in different places.
在不同的地方
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Our children go to different schools.
我們的子女就讀不同的學校