Placeholder Image

字幕列表 影片播放

已審核 字幕已審核
  • Here's a question we need to rethink together:

    現在有個問題需要我們一起反思

  • What should be the role of money

    金錢和市場在我們的社會中

  • and markets in our societies?

    該扮演什麼角色?

  • Today, there are very few things

    現今,還有幾樣東西

  • that money can't buy.

    是金錢買不到的

  • If you're sentenced to a jail term

    如果你在加州聖巴巴拉

  • in Santa Barbara, California,

    被判處有期徒刑

  • you should know

    你該知道

  • that if you don't like the standard accommodations,

    如你不喜歡標準規格的住宿設施

  • you can buy a prison cell upgrade.

    可花錢把牢房升級

  • It's true. For how much, do you think?

    這是真的,你們認為需要多少錢?

  • What would you guess?

    你猜猜看?

  • Five hundred dollars?

    500 美元?

  • It's not the Ritz-Carlton. It's a jail!

    這可不是麗思卡爾頓飯店。這是監獄!

  • Eighty-two dollars a night.

    每晚 82 元

  • Eighty-two dollars a night.

    每晚 82 元

  • If you go to an amusement park

    如果你去遊樂園

  • and don't want to stand in the long lines

    不想為了熱門的遊樂設施

  • for the popular rides,

    排隊等候

  • there is now a solution.

    現在有解決辦法了

  • In many theme parks, you can pay extra

    在許多主題公園,你能花多點錢

  • to jump to the head of the line.

    搶到前頭

  • They call them Fast Track or VIP tickets.

    這叫快速通關走道或 VIP 票

  • And this isn't only happening in amusement parks.

    這不僅發生在遊樂園

  • In Washington, D.C., long lines,

    在華盛頓特區

  • queues sometimes form

    往往也要大排長龍

  • for important Congressional hearings.

    才可出席重要的國會聽證會

  • Now some people don't like to wait in long queues,

    現在部分人不喜歡排長隊

  • maybe overnight, even in the rain.

    也許是通宵的,甚至淋雨

  • So now, for lobbyists and others

    所以現在那些極渴望

  • who are very keen to attend these hearings

    參與聽證會的說客和其他人

  • but don't like to wait, there are companies,

    又不喜歡排隊的,有一些公司

  • line-standing companies,

    排隊公司

  • and you can go to them.

    你可找他們

  • You can pay them a certain amount of money,

    你只須向他們支付若干金額

  • they hire homeless people and others who need a job

    他們就雇用一些無家可歸人士或需要工作的人

  • to stand waiting in the line for as long as it takes,

    排隊等候,要等多久就多久

  • and the lobbyist, just before the hearing begins,

    說客只須在聽證會開始前

  • can take his or her place at the head of the line

    取代排在前面的人

  • and a seat in the front of the room.

    並坐在會場的前排位置

  • Paid line standing.

    付費排隊

  • It's happening, the recourse to market mechanisms

    在更大的舞臺上,仰賴市場機制

  • and market thinking and market solutions,

    行銷思維和行銷解決方案

  • in bigger arenas.

    這是正在發生的事

  • Take the way we fight our wars.

    看看我們的作戰方式

  • Did you know that, in Iraq and Afghanistan,

    在伊拉克和阿富汗,你知否

  • there were more private military contractors on the ground

    私營軍事承包商的數量

  • than there were U.S. military troops?

    較美國軍隊人數還要多。

  • Now this isn't because we had a public debate

    現在並非因我們曾公開辯論

  • about whether we wanted to outsource war

    是否要將戰爭外包

  • to private companies,

    給私人公司

  • but this is what has happened.

    而是這已是既成事實

  • Over the past three decades,

    過去三十多年來

  • we have lived through a quiet revolution.

    我們度過了一場靜靜的革命

  • We've drifted almost without realizing it

    我們幾乎難以察覺到

  • from having a market economy

    經已由市場經濟漸漸

  • to becoming market societies.

    快要成為市場社會

  • The difference is this: A market economy is a tool,

    二者的分別在於:市場經濟是一種工具

  • a valuable and effective tool,

    一種有價值和有效益的工具

  • for organizing productive activity,

    用以組織生產活動

  • but a market society is a place where

    但是市場社會是一處地方

  • almost everything is up for sale.

    那裏差不多所有物件也可供出售

  • It's a way of life, in which market thinking

    這是一種生活方式

  • and market values begin to dominate

    行銷思維和市場價值開始主導

  • every aspect of life:

    生活各個層面

  • personal relations, family life, health, education,

    個人關係、家庭生活、健康、教育

  • politics, law, civic life.

    政治、法律、公民生活

  • Now, why worry? Why worry about our becoming

    現在為什麼要擔心?為何要擔心我們的社會

  • market societies?

    變成市場社會呢?

  • For two reasons, I think.

    我認為有兩大原因

  • One of them has to do with inequality.

    其中一個原因是不平等

  • The more things money can buy,

    錢能買到的東西越多

  • the more affluence, or the lack of it, matters.

    富裕程度就變得越重要

  • If the only thing that money determined

    如果錢只能讓人決定是否

  • was access to yachts or fancy vacations or BMWs,

    購買遊艇、豪華假期或寶馬

  • then inequality wouldn't matter very much.

    那麼不平等就沒那麼重要

  • But when money comes increasingly to govern

    但當金錢越來越能夠支配

  • access to the essentials of the good life --

    美好生活的元素--

  • decent health care, access to the best education,

    高品質的醫療保健、最好的教育

  • political voice and influence in campaigns --

    選舉中的政治發言權和影響力--

  • when money comes to govern all of those things,

    當金錢支配了一切

  • inequality matters a great deal.

    不平等就變得非常重要

  • And so the marketization of everything

    因此,所有事物被市場化後

  • sharpens the sting of inequality

    凸顯出不平等的問題

  • and its social and civic consequence.

    及其社會和公民效應

  • That's one reason to worry.

    這只是一個需要擔心的原因

  • There's a second reason

    除了對不平等的擔心

  • apart from the worry about inequality,

    第二個原因

  • and it's this:

    就是

  • with some social goods and practices,

    某些社會商品和常規

  • when market thinking and market values enter,

    當行銷思維和市場價值介入時

  • they may change the meaning of those practices

    或會因此改變那些常規的意義

  • and crowd out attitudes and norms

    擠掉值得我們在意的

  • worth caring about.

    態度和規範

  • I'd like to take an example

    給大家舉個例子

  • of a controversial use of a market mechanism,

    關於市場機制運用的爭議

  • a cash incentive, and see what you think about it.

    金錢獎勵,看看你們怎麼想的

  • Many schools struggle with the challenge

    許多學校面臨怎樣鼓勵孩子的挑戰

  • of motivating kids, especially kids

    尤其是

  • from disadvantaged backgrounds, to study hard,

    來自弱勢背景的孩子,用功讀書

  • to do well in school, to apply themselves.

    表現良好、努力向上

  • Some economists have proposed a market solution:

    有些經濟學家建議出一套市場解決方案

  • Offer cash incentives to kids for getting good grades

    提供金錢獎勵,鼓勵孩子爭取好成績

  • or high test scores

    或高分

  • or for reading books.

    或閱讀書籍

  • They've tried this, actually.

    他們也真的試過這方法

  • They've done some experiments

    他們在美國一些主要城市

  • in some major American cities.

    進行過實驗

  • In New York, in Chicago, in Washington, D.C.,

    紐約、芝加哥、華盛頓特區

  • they've tried this, offering 50 dollars for an A,

    他們的做法是:成續 A 等給 50 美元

  • 35 dollars for a B.

    成續 B 等給 35 美元

  • In Dallas, Texas, they have a program that offers

    德州達拉斯有這樣一個計畫

  • eight-year-olds two dollars for each book they read.

    八歲學童每讀一本書就獎 2 美元

  • So let's see what -- Some people are in favor,

    讓我們來看看 -- 有些人支持

  • some people are opposed to this cash incentive

    有些人則反對使用錢

  • to motivate achievement.

    鼓勵學生取得成就

  • Let's see what people here think about it.

    讓我們來看看這裡的人的看法

  • Imagine that you are the head of a major school system,

    假設你是一個主要學區的主管

  • and someone comes to you with this proposal.

    有人向你提出這建議

  • And let's say it's a foundation. They will provide the funds.

    假設是一個基金會,他們將會出錢

  • You don't have to take it out of your budget.

    學校無須負擔費用

  • How many would be in favor

    有多少人會贊成

  • and how many would be opposed to giving it a try?

    又多少人會反對試一試?

  • Let's see by a show of hands.

    透過以舉手方式表決,讓我們來看看

  • First, how many think it might at least be worth a try

    首先,多少人認為值得一試

  • to see if it would work? Raise your hand.

    看看是否有效?請舉手

  • And how many would be opposed? How many would --

    有多少人反對?多少 --

  • So the majority here are opposed,

    這裡多數人反對

  • but a sizable minority are in favor.

    但相當一部分的少數也贊成

  • Let's have a discussion.

    我們來討論一下

  • Let's start with those of you who object,

    由反對的開始吧

  • who would rule it out even before trying.

    你們甚至在嘗試之前已排除這可能

  • What would be your reason?

    你的理由會是什麼呢?

  • Who will get our discussion started? Yes?

    誰願意帶頭討論?你喔?

  • Heike Moses: Hello everyone, I'm Heike,

    海克摩西:大家好,我是海克

  • and I think it just kills the intrinsic motivation,

    我認為它只會抹殺學習的內在動機

  • so in the respect that children, if they would like to read,

    所以在這方面,如果學童喜歡讀書的話

  • you just take this incentive away

    你只要把奬勵誘因拿走

  • in just paying them, so it just changes behavior.

    只給錢,這樣就會改變行為

  • Michael Sandel: Takes the intrinsic incentive away.

    邁可‧桑德爾:把內在的奬勵誘因拿走

  • What is, or should be, the intrinsic motivation?

    內在動機是什麼,或該是什麼?

  • HM: Well, the intrinsic motivation

    HM:內在動機嘛

  • should be to learn.

    該是學習吧

  • MS: To learn. HM: To get to know the world.

    MS:去學習HM:為了認識世界

  • And then, if you stop paying them, what happens then?

    然後如果你停止給他們錢,會發生什麼事?

  • Then they stop reading?

    他們會否停止閱讀?

  • MS: Now, let's see if there's someone who favors,

    MS:現在讓我們看看有沒有人贊成

  • who thinks it's worth trying this.

    誰認為值得試試

  • Elizabeth Loftus: I'm Elizabeth Loftus,

    伊莉莎白‧羅芙特斯:我是伊莉莎白‧羅芙特斯 (Elizabeth Loftus)

  • and you said worth a try, so why not try it

    你說值得一試,所以為何不試試

  • and do the experiment and measure things?

    來做個小實驗並估量一下?

  • MS: And measure. And what would you measure?

    MS:估量。你會估量些什麼?

  • You'd measure how many --

    你要估量有多少...

  • EL: How many books they read

    EL:他們讀了多少本書

  • and how many books they continued to read

    而當你不給錢後

  • after you stopped paying them.

    又繼續讀了多少本書

  • MS: Oh, after you stopped paying.

    MS:噢,你不再給錢以後

  • All right, what about that?

    好,那又如何?

  • HM: To be frank, I just think

    HM:老實說,我只認為

  • this is, not to offend anyone, a very American way.

    我無意冒犯任何人,這是非常美式的作風

  • (Laughter) (Applause)

    (笑聲) (掌聲)

  • MS: All right. What's emerged from this discussion

    MS:好,這次討論

  • is the following question:

    出現了以下問題

  • Will the cash incentive drive out or corrupt

    金錢獎勵會否侵蝕或擠掉

  • or crowd out the higher motivation,

    或排擠更較高層面的動機

  • the intrinsic lesson that we hope to convey,

    我們希望表達的心聲

  • which is to learn to love to learn and to read

    即是要培養他們學習和閱讀的興趣

  • for their own sakes?

    是要為他們自己著想?

  • And people disagree about what the effect will be,

    大家對產生什麼樣的效果持不同意見

  • but that seems to be the question,

    但這似乎就是問題所在

  • that somehow a market mechanism

    不知何故市場機制或金錢獎勵

  • or a cash incentive teaches the wrong lesson,

    是錯誤的教導

  • and if it does, what will become of these children later?

    如果真的錯了,學童未來會變成怎樣?

  • I should tell you what's happened with these experiments.

    我該告訴你們這些實驗發生了什麼事情

  • The cash for good grades has had very mixed results,

    用錢鼓勵學生取得好成績,得出了不同的結果

  • for the most part has not resulted in higher grades.

    大部分學生的成績不會更好

  • The two dollars for each book

    閱讀一本書就給兩美元

  • did lead those kids to read more books.

    確實使那些學童讀更多書

  • It also led them to read shorter books.

    也使他們看頁數較少的書

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • But the real question is,

    但真正問題是

  • what will become of these kids later?

    未來這些孩子會變成怎樣?

  • Will they have learned that reading is a chore,

    會否認為閱讀是件苦差事

  • a form of piecework to be done for pay, that's the worry,

    一項按件計酬的工作,那就令人擔心

  • or may it lead them to read maybe for the wrong reason initially

    或許引領他們開始閱讀時動機不正

  • but then lead them to fall in love with reading for its own sake?

    但日後引領他們愛上閱讀,因興趣而讀?

  • Now, what this, even this brief debate, brings out

    現在這簡短的辯論也指出

  • is something that many economists overlook.

    很多經濟學家忽略的地方

  • Economists often assume

    經濟學家時常假設

  • that markets are inert,

    市場是沒有生命的

  • that they do not touch or taint the goods they exchange.

    不會碰到或沾染進行交易的商品

  • Market exchange, they assume,

    他們假設市場交易

  • doesn't change the meaning or value

    不會改變要進行交易的商品

  • of the goods being exchanged.

    其意義和價值

  • This may be true enough

    這或者是千真萬確的

  • if we're talking about material goods.

    如果我們談的是物質產品

  • If you sell me a flat screen television

    如果你賣給我一部平面電視

  • or give me one as a gift,

    或送一部給我當禮物

  • it will be the same good.

    兩者都是同樣的產品

  • It will work the same either way.

    兩種運作方式也一樣

  • But the same may not be true

    共同處就並不是正確的

  • if we're talking about nonmaterial goods

    如果我們談的是非物質產品

  • and social practices such as teaching and learning

    社會實踐如教學和學習

  • or engaging together in civic life.

    或共同參與公民生活

  • In those domains, bringing market mechanisms

    在那些領域,引進市場機制

  • and cash incentives may undermine

    和金錢獎勵或會削弱

  • or crowd out nonmarket values and attitudes

    或擠掉我們該關心的

  • worth caring about.

    非市場價值和態度

  • Once we see

    一旦我們了解到

  • that markets and commerce,

    當市場和貿易

  • when extended beyond the material domain,

    超越物質領域時

  • can change the character of the goods themselves,

    就可改變商品本身的特性

  • can change the meaning of the social practices,

    就可改變社會實踐的意義

  • as in the example of teaching and learning,

    即如教學和學習的例子

  • we have to ask where markets belong

    我們必須問,哪裡是屬於市場的

  • and where they don't,

    哪裡不屬於市場

  • where they may actually undermine

    哪裡事實上破壞了

  • values and attitudes worth caring about.

    值得我們關心的價值和態度

  • But to have this debate,

    但是透過此辯論

  • we have to do something we're not very good at,

    我們必須去做一些不擅長的事情

  • and that is to reason together in public

    就是一起公開理性的辯論

  • about the value and the meaning

    我們所珍視的社會實踐

  • of the social practices we prize,

    其價值和意義

  • from our bodies to family life

    從我們的身體到家庭生活

  • to personal relations to health

    到私人關係到健康

  • to teaching and learning to civic life.

    到公民生活的學習和教學

  • Now these are controversial questions,

    這些都是具爭議的問題

  • and so we tend to shrink from them.

    所以我們傾向退縮

  • In fact, during the past three decades,

    事實上過去 30 年來

  • when market reasoning and market thinking

    當市場論據和行銷思維

  • have gathered force and gained prestige,

    凝聚起力量且贏得到聲望

  • our public discourse during this time

    這段期間我們的公共討論

  • has become hollowed out,

    變得蕩然無存

  • empty of larger moral meaning.

    缺乏更深遠的道德意義

  • For fear of disagreement, we shrink from these questions.

    因為害怕爭論,我們避而不談

  • But once we see that markets

    不過一旦我們了解到

  • change the character of goods,

    市場會改變商品的特性

  • we have to debate among ourselves

    我們就必須討論

  • these bigger questions

    這些更重要的問題

  • about how to value goods.

    怎樣給予商品評價

  • One of the most corrosive effects

    把每樣東西標價

  • of putting a price on everything

    其中最具腐蝕作用之一

  • is on commonality,

    就是共通性

  • the sense that we are all in it together.

    也就是我們全都混在一起的感覺

  • Against the background of rising inequality,

    在不平等情況與日俱增的背景下

  • marketizing every aspect of life

    把生活各個層面市場化

  • leads to a condition where those who are affluent

    導致一個情況,富裕的人

  • and those who are of modest means

    和過著節制生活的人

  • increasingly live separate lives.

    逐漸地過著不同的生活

  • We live and work and shop and play

    我們生活、工作、購物和娛樂

  • in different places.

    在不同的地方

  • Our children go to different schools.

    我們的子女就讀不同的學校