Hello there to you.

你好，你。

Thanks so much for joining us on BBC News.

非常感謝你參加我們的BBC新聞節目。

So you have publicly expressed support for Piers Morgan.

所以你公開表示了對皮爾斯-摩根的支持。

Tell us why, Because I think he should be allowed to express his opinion.

告訴我們為什麼，因為我認為應該允許他發表意見。

And I think we need more people who are willing to push boundaries, not less on the air.

而且我覺得我們需要更多願意挑戰極限的人，而不是在直播中減少。

And we're just cracking down on free speech in a way that I find really alarming, and it doesn't I don't have to agree with everything, Pierce says.

而且我們只是在打擊言論自由的方式，我發現真的很令人震驚，它並不我不必同意一切，皮爾斯說。

I just have to support his right to say how he actually feels.

我只是要支持他說出自己真實感受的權利。

And if people get offended, that's okay.

如果人們被冒犯了，那也沒關係。

Sometimes when you're in the business of talking about difficult issues and stories for a living, some people will take offense.

有時候，當你以談論棘手的問題和故事為生時，有些人會感到不快。

Although the online campaign against peers seemed very organised yesterday by his pre existing detractors, um, so I just I'm in favor of his right to have his own opinion, and I get alarmed when we see that getting shut down, left, right and center when I don't know how controversial it is to say that he just doesn't believe Megan Markle like he doesn't know.

雖然昨天網上反對同行的運動似乎非常有組織，由他前期存在的詆譭者，嗯，所以我只是我贊成他有自己的意見的權利，當我們看到這一點被關閉時，我感到震驚，左，右和中心，當我不知道說他只是不相信梅根馬克爾像他不知道一樣，這是多麼有爭議的。

Why doesn't he get to believe her?

為什麼他不能相信她？

It's so interesting what you say, because no one would question his right to have an opinion.

你說的話真有意思，因為沒有人會質疑他有意見的權利。

They would question his right to express it as a journalist on television.

他們會質疑他作為一名電視記者的表達權。

Isn't there a responsibility on journalists to maintain a degree of impartiality when they're reporting on a news story?

記者在報道一則新聞時，不是有責任保持一定的公正性嗎？

Well, I don't think that's been peers brand right and, like, I don't get to watch him on Good Morning Britain a lot because I'm here in the States.

好吧，我不認為這是一直同行品牌的權利，一樣，我沒有得到看他的早安英國很多，因為我在這裡在美國。

But I read his column at The Daily Mail all the time, and I would put him more in the field of, I don't know, like a Glenn Greenwald here in the States while he's in Brazil.

但我讀他的專欄 在每日郵報所有的時間， 我會把他更多的領域， 我不知道，像一個格倫・格林沃爾德在美國 而他在巴西。

But somebody who is both opinion and journalism and peers has never been shy about expressing his opinion, and he often takes controversial positions, and he's been beaten up on Meghan Markle and Prince Harry for a long time.

但有人既是意見，又是新聞界和同行，他從不羞於表達自己的觀點，他經常採取有爭議的立場，他對梅根-馬克爾和哈里王子打了很久。

So I think his brand is what they hired, and he didn't really deviate from it this week, so, but maybe he went too far because the media regulator, Ofcom, got over 40,000 complaints from the public.

所以我認為他的品牌是他們聘請的，他本週並沒有真正偏離它，所以，但也許他走得太遠了，因為媒體監管機構Ofcom收到了公眾的4萬多份投訴。

They clearly thought he went too far.

他們顯然認為他做得太過分了。

You can't go by that, though.

不過，你不能憑這個去。

I mean, they broke records for their viewership yesterday.

我是說，他們昨天打破了他們的收視率記錄。

They had millions of people tuning in, right?

他們有幾百萬人在收看，對吧？

So it's like 40,000.

所以它就像4萬。

Okay, Think of all the people who had absolutely no problem with peers or if you went out and said to them They're thinking about cracking down on piers speech.

好吧，想想所有的人誰有絕對沒有問題的同行，或者如果你出去對他們說，他們正在考慮打擊皮爾斯的言論。

People need to write in to save them.

人們需要寫信來拯救他們。

How many would you have gotten?

你會得到多少？

You can't give a heckler's veto.

你不能給一個嘲笑者的否決權。

And even if Piers was in trouble, okay, so you slap his hand and he went out there yesterday morning and he said, Look, if somebody is struggling with mental health, if somebody is suicidal, I 100% support their right to seek help.

即使皮爾斯遇到了麻煩，好吧，你拍拍他的手，他昨天早上去了那裡，他說，你看，如果有人正在與心理健康作鬥爭，如果有人有自殺傾向，我100%支持他們尋求幫助的權利。

And if she did, in fact complaints, something should have been done.

如果她真的這樣做了，事實上投訴，應該做一些事情。

And there should be an investigation into why it wasn't if it wasn't.

而且如果沒有的話，應該調查一下為什麼沒有。

But he's basically saying, I don't buy it.

但他基本上是說，我不相信。

I haven't listened to the whole interview and knowing this person, do not believe what she said.

我沒有聽完整個採訪，瞭解這個人，不相信她說的話。

He's entitled to that belief.

他有權利這樣認為。

I don't think it's irresponsible for him to say, having covered her now for years, day in, day out, much more than the average person.

我不認為他說的不負責任，他現在掩護她多年，日復一日，比一般人多得多。

I have good reason to believe she's not a credible person in this or many other things, she says.

她說，我有充分的理由相信她在這件事或許多其他事情上不是一個可信的人。

But perhaps he has offended too many people by saying that he doesn't believe her, particularly on the issue of mental health, which is a very sensitive subject.

但也許他說不相信她，特別是在心理健康這個非常敏感的話題上，得罪了太多的人。

It is.

它是。

I'm not going to dispute that and I've covered, You know, I've covered that a fair amount in my career, and I understand it's difficult for people to talk about mental health.

我不打算爭論這一點，我已經覆蓋了，你知道，我已經覆蓋了一個公平的量在我的職業生涯中，我明白這是困難的人談論心理健康。

Yes, which is why I'm always outing myself as being in therapy.

是的，這就是為什麼我總是把自己說成是在接受治療。

It's working so far, but I think she took a risk right in disclosing that.

到目前為止，它的工作，但我認為她採取了風險的權利披露。

But I don't think her doing that requires everyone to believe it.

但我不認為她這樣做需要大家相信。

And I don't think it's unsound for a commentator to say I'm not buying and I think she's going for sympathy.

而且我覺得一個評論員說我不買賬，我覺得她是去博取同情，這並不不健全。

It's not how I feel, but I don't think people being offended.

這不是我的感覺，但我不認為人們被冒犯。

Some faction of a huge audience being offended should cancel somebody's right to speak out, right?

龐大的閱聽人中的某一派被冒犯，應該取消某人的發言權吧？

Yes, Generally we need to be a little ginger around difficult issues, But if that's what you want, you know you don't put Piers Morgan in the seat.

是的，一般來說，我們需要在困難的問題上表現得溫和一些，但如果這是你想要的，你知道你不會讓皮爾斯・摩根坐上這個位置。

They put Piers Morgan in the seat to get eyeballs, and he brought that show to where yesterday it was number one and their viewer skyrocketed.

他們讓皮爾斯-摩根坐鎮，以吸引眼球，他把那個節目帶到了昨天的第一名，他們的收視率直線上升。

He and Susanna had this great dynamic.

他和蘇珊娜有很好的動態。

The public enjoys it.

公眾樂此不疲。

They clearly enjoy it.

他們顯然樂在其中。

They may not always like it.

他們可能並不總是喜歡它。

They may hate him on Monday and like them on Tuesday.

他們可能週一討厭他，週二喜歡他們。

He's been great and great Britain on the covid stuff.

他在科維德的事情上表現得很好，很偉大的英國。

But you can't just keep yanking people's microphones off because they happen to have an opinion that some people may find offensive.

但你不能因為別人的觀點讓某些人覺得不爽，就一直把他們的話筒拽下來。

I wonder if part of your difficulty with the Meghan interview on Piers Morgan's difficulty was the nature of the questioning.

我不知道你在皮爾斯-摩根的困難上接受梅根採訪的部分困難是否是提問的性質。

The Duchess of Sussex is only going to put her point of view, and what else would she do?

蘇塞克斯公爵夫人只是要把自己的觀點，她還會做什麼？

But I wonder if you would have been less frustrated and he might have been less frustrated if you felt that the interview was more combative, not combative?

但我想，如果你覺得采訪的時候是鬥志昂揚的，而不是鬥志昂揚的，你會不會減少挫折感，他可能會減少挫折感？

No, I didn't want to see that and Oprah's.

不，我不想看那個和奧普拉的。

She started her career as a journalist, but she's been a talk show host for the past 30 years.

她的職業生涯從記者開始，但她在過去30年裡一直是脫口秀主持人。

So she's sort of in a different line when it comes to how she approaches these interviews, and I'm sure that's why she was selected.

所以她在對待這些採訪的方式上，算是另闢蹊徑，我相信這也是她被選中的原因。

But I as a journalist, I have really wanted to see Oprah in general.

但是我作為一個記者，我真的很想看到奧普拉一般。

She's done a couple of interviews on big cases here in the States recently.

她最近在美國做了幾個大案子的採訪。

One was the Michael Jackson documentary, and now this where it's not believing.

一個是邁克爾-傑克遜的紀錄片，現在這個地方不信。

It's not that I'm on the side of the Michael Jackson estate, Um, but I wanted to see more probative questioning, and when she talked to Megan, I think she does.

這並不是說我在一邊 邁克爾・傑克遜的房地產，嗯， 但我想看到更多的證明問題， 當她跟梅根，我認為她做的。

The audience applauded overall, did a great job, but I think it in not pressing for more specifics over to the audience and Megan a disservice, because if somebody practiced law for 10 years, I can tell you it's the facts.

觀眾總體上鼓掌，做了一個偉大的工作，但我認為它在不按更多的具體細節超過觀眾和梅根的傷害，因為如果有人練習法律10年，我可以告訴你這是事實。

It's the details.

是細節。

It's the specifics that convince people, and she would have done everyone a better favor and a better a better service.

具體的細節才是讓人信服的，她會給大家帶來更好的幫助，更好的服務。

If she had said who had the palace told you that they were going to help you when you reported that you were feeling suicidal, who specifically and then when you say you went to HR who specifically name names.

如果她說當你報告說你有自殺的感覺時，誰有宮廷告訴你他們會幫助你，具體是誰，然後當你說你去找HR時，誰具體指名道姓。

Okay, You don't want to name who is the alleged racist within the royal family?

好吧，你不想說出誰是皇室內部所謂的種族主義者？

Can you tell me whether it's one of these four?

你能告訴我是不是這四種之一嗎？

Can you rule out like, on the spot?

你能當場排除喜歡嗎？

You should have said, Can you rule out the Queen and Prince Philip because she had to go do cleanup on that the next day?

你應該說，你能不能排除女王和菲利普親王的可能性，因為她第二天要去做清理工作？

Like press, people were jealous of Megan, which he went on the Australia tour.

就像媒體一樣，人們都在嫉妒梅根，他去澳洲旅遊。

And that's one of the things that led to the deterioration.

而這也是導致惡化的原因之一。

Who?

誰？

What's your evidence of that?

你有什麼證據？

How did you know that?

你怎麼知道的？

You have to, you know, as a presenter, showing instead of telling is much more compelling.

你必須，你知道，作為一個主持人，展示而不是講述更有說服力。

And I think that didn't happen.

而我認為這並沒有發生。

Um, just again, on the question of Piers Morgan, I wonder if there is a cultural difference as well that in Britain, broadcasters are by and large, expected to stay impartial and objective.

嗯，再來說說皮爾斯-摩根的問題，不知道是不是也有文化差異，在英國，廣播員大體上是要保持公正客觀的。

Piers Morgan was always given more more leeway if you like, But I mean, he was on a fairly extreme end.

皮爾斯-摩根總是被給予更多的更多的餘地，如果你喜歡，但我的意思是，他是在一個相當極端的端。

Not so much the case in the United States.

美國的情況就不一樣了。

You're probably right.

你可能是對的。

I will tell you, just as an American journalist.

我告訴你，就像一個美國記者一樣。

I don't understand this off calm.

我不明白這關平靜。

And I can't imagine working in a world where I had to answer to somebody other than my boss, my audience and myself, my own conscience.

我無法想象在這樣的世界裡工作 除了老闆、觀眾和我自己，我的良心之外，我還得對別人負責。

Like, you know, we're pretty big on free speech over here.

就像，你知道，我們是相當大的 自由言論在這裡。

Uh, so I don't like the idea of a government tapping me on the shoulder to say, like, I don't like the way you said that, but I don't know.

呃，所以我不喜歡政府拍著我的肩膀說，就像，我不喜歡你說的方式，但我不知道。

I love Great Britain, and I think you're presses really fun, So it must be working to some extent.

我喜歡英國，我認為你的壓力真的很有趣，所以它必須在一定程度上工作。

And can I just ask you separately?

那我能不能單獨問你呢？

You yourself have been the object of personal criticism by the former President Trump over your handling of one of the presidential debates.

你自己也因為處理了一場總統辯論的問題，成為前總統特朗普個人責備的對象。

So you know what it's like to come under personal fire.

所以你知道受到人身攻擊的滋味。

How did you deal with that?

你是怎麼處理的？

Well, I've been thinking about that a bit in recent days, because when I listen to Megan Markle, I understood her talking about how awful it is to be the scourge of the press.

好吧，最近幾天我一直在思考這個問題，因為當我聽梅根-馬克爾說話時，我明白她在說成為媒體的禍害是多麼可怕。

I got it.

我知道了

I mean, trust me, I've been there many times.

我的意思是，相信我，我已經去過很多次了。

Um, but, you know, my thought was why didn't the palace protect me?

嗯，但是，你知道，我的想法是，為什麼皇宮不保護我？

Why didn't that?

為什麼沒有？

So the palace can't protect you from the press.

所以皇宮不能保護你不被媒體曝光。

The press.

記者：

As you know Rita is going to do what is going to do, and there's only so much anybody can reel them in, and I have experienced that, too.

你知道麗塔要做什麼就要做什麼，任何人都只能把他們捲進來，我也有過這樣的經歷。

And when you put yourself in the public eye, as I have as you have, and certainly as she has on a much larger level at some level you got to say it's time to put your big girl pants on and understand this comes with the job.

當你把自己放在公眾視野中時，就像我，就像你，當然也像她一樣，在更大的層面上，在某些層面上，你必須說，是時候穿上你的大姑娘褲子了，並明白這是工作的一部分。

It's unpleasant.

這很不愉快。

You have to find ways of tuning it out and go on living your beautiful life.

你要想辦法把它調出來，繼續過你美麗的生活。

And I think Megan trying to say the palace didn't protect me, and people said negative, like That's part of the job.

我覺得梅根想說的是，皇宮沒有保護我，人們說的是負面的，就像那是工作的一部分。

I know it's unpleasant.

我知道這是不愉快的。

I know it involves race.

我知道這涉及到種族。

I've been on the receiving end of tons of sexism, so I get how painful that kind of thing can be.

我一直在接受大量的性別歧視，所以我知道那種事情有多痛苦。

But it's baked into the cake that we've all chosen to each when we become public figures.

但我們在成為公眾人物的時候，都會選擇各自的蛋糕。

Okay, very good to talk to you.

好的，很高興和你談話。

Thank you so much.

非常感謝你。

That's Megyn Kelly, American broadcaster.

那是梅根-凱利，美國廣播員。

Thank you so much.

非常感謝你。