NEXT GUEST IS A PROFESSOR AT VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY AND A "NEW

下一位嘉賓是範德比爾特大學的教授，也是一位 "新"。

YORK TIMES" BESTSELLING AUTHOR OF OVER 20 BOOKS.

美國《紐約時報》暢銷書作者，著有20多本書。

HIS NEWEST IS "LONG TIME COMING."

他的最新作品是 "好久不見"。

PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW," MICHAEL ERIC DYSON!

歡迎回到 "晚間秀"，邁克爾-艾瑞克-戴森!

PROFESSOR DYSON, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

戴森教授，很高興再次見到你。

>> ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> 很高興見到你。

>> Stephen: NOW, YOU'VE AUTHORED 20 BOOKS, AS I SAID.

>> Stephen:現在，你已經按照我說的，授權了20本書。

WE'VE BEEN TALKING FOR ALMOST 15 YEARS NOW, SINCE THE FIRST TIME

我們已經談了15年了 從第一次開始

I EVER INTERVIEWED TO YOU.

我曾經採訪過你。

THIS NEW BOOK "LONG TIME COMING" USES A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FORM

這本新書 "好久不見 "採用了一種稍有不同的形式。

THAT YOU'VE USED IN THE PAST.

你過去用過的。

THIS IS WRITTEN IN THE FORM OF LETTERS TO BLACK VICTIMS OF

這是以給黑人受害者的信的形式寫的。

POLICE BRUTALITY AND RACISM IN THE UNITED STATES.

美國警察的粗暴行為和種族主義。

WHY DID YOU WANT TO WRITE THESE LETTERS TO THESE PEOPLE, RATHER

你為什麼要寫這些信給這些人，而不是... ...

THAN ABOUT THEM?

而不是關於他們的？

>> YES, SIR.

>> 是的，先生。

IT'S A GREAT DISTINCTION.

這是一個很大的區別。

I DIDN'T WANT TO FURTHER OBJECTIFY THEM.

我並不想進一步的針對他們。

I DIDN'T WANT TO EXPLOIT THEIR DEATH AS A WAY TO SELL BOOKS.

我不想利用他們的死亡作為賣書的方式。

I WANTED TO COMMUNE WITH THEM.

我想和他們交流。

IT'S NOT IN A LOOSEY-GOOSY ABSTRACT SENSE.

這不是在一個鬆散的抽象的意義。

I MEAN LEARN FROM THEIR WISDOM, DRAW FROM THEIR RECENTLY

我的意思是學習他們的智慧，從他們最近的經驗中汲取教訓。

ANCESTRAL STATUS.

古代地位：

AND I WANTED TO SAY BY TALKING TO THEM, BY COMMUNING WITH THEM,

我想說的是，通過與他們交談，通過與他們溝通。

I'M THINKING OUT LOUD.

我在大聲地想。

IT'S FORCING ME TO TALK ABOUT HOW THEY DIED.

這讓我不得不談論他們是怎麼死的。

WHAT ARE THE REASONS FOR WHICH THEY WERE KILLED?

他們被殺的原因是什麼？

HOW DO WE STOP THE TRAIN OF INCESSANT KILLING OF BLACK

我們如何停止對黑人的無休止殺戮的列車？

PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY AT THE HANDS OF COPS, BUT ALSO BY VIGILANTES?

人，特別是在警察的手中，但也由警員？

AND WHAT CAN WE DO TO DERIVE WISDOM FROM THEIR JOURNEY SO

我們能做些什麼來從他們的旅程中獲得智慧呢？

THAT WE CAN PREVENT OTHERS FROM SUFFERING A SIMILAR FATE.

我們可以防止別人遭受同樣的命運。

>> Stephen: THE BOOKS, IN SOME WAYS, IS A RESPONSE TO THE

>> 斯蒂芬：這本書，在某種程度上，是對 "我 "的迴應。

PROTESTS THIS SUMMER OVER POLICE BRUTALITY.

今年夏天對警察粗暴行為的抗議。

THEY WERE MASSIVE, SOME OF THE LARGEST PROTESTS IN HISTORY, NOT

他們是大規模的，一些歷史上最大規模的抗議活動，而不是。

ONLY IN THE UNITED STATES BUT AROUND THE WORLD.

只在美國，但在世界各地。

OF COURSE, ONE OF THE-- ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT ARILESES

當然，其中一個... ...其中一個問題是... ...引起了人們的注意。

AFTER A SOCIAL MOMENT LIKE THAT IS HOW IS THAT SUSTAINED?

在這樣的社會時刻之後，是如何維持的？

AND HOW IS THAT TURNED INTO SOMETHING LASTING?

又是如何將其轉化為持久的東西？

>> YEAH, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

>> 是的，這是個好問題。

AND THAT'S WHAT ALL SOCIAL ORGANIZERS TRY TO FIGURE OUT--

這就是所有的社會組織試圖找出 --

HOW DO YOU TAKE A MOMENT AND MAKE IT A MOVEMENT.

你如何把一個時刻變成一個動作。

MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. SURFACED

MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.SURFACED.

BECAME FAMOUS, AND THEN WAS KILLED, WHAT, 12 YEARS LATER.

成名，然後被殺，什麼，12年後。

IT'S NOT LONG, THE TRAJECTORY OF TRANSFORMATION THAT YOU HAVE AT

這不長，你所擁有的變革的軌跡。

YOUR DIPOSABLE.

你的DIPOSABLE。

SO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IS LEVERAGE THE MOMENT IN A WAY BY

所以，你要做的是通過以下方式來利用這一時刻。

THINKING HOW CAN WE REPLICATE WHAT WE SAW ON THE STREETS IN

思考如何才能複製我們在街上看到的東西？

THE CORPORATE SWEELTS?

企業SWEELTS？

HOW CAN WE MAKE IT WORK IN SCHOOLS?

我們如何才能讓它在學校裡發揮作用？

HOW CAN WE MAKE IT WORK IN OUR JOBS THAT WE ENJOY EVERY DAY,

我們如何才能讓它在我們的工作中發揮作用，讓我們每天都能享受到工作的樂趣。

THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO ONE ANOTHER?

彼此交談的機會？

SO YOU WANT TO TRANSLATE THE TREMENDOUS POWER THAT WE SAW IN

所以，你想翻譯我們在這裡看到的巨大力量。

THOSE STREETS-- AND MAKE NO MISTAKE.

這些街道... ...不要搞錯了。

NOT ONLY WAS ONE OF THE LARGEST HISTORIES AROUND THE GLOBE, BUT

不僅是全球最大的歷史之一，而且是

WHITE BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO SAW GEORGE FLOYD DIE, BECAUSE

看到喬治-弗洛伊德去世的白人兄弟姐妹，因為：

THEY WERE AT HOME, BECAUSE THE PANDEMIC SAID, WE'VE ALL GOT TO

他們在家裡，因為潘德米克說，我們都得去。

BE OUR SCREENS.

是我們的螢幕。

SO WE'RE LOOKING, SO IT CAME ACROSS AS A VERY POWERFUL

是以，我們正在尋找，所以它作為一個非常強大的出現了。

MOMENT.

瞬間：

AND THEN WHITE BRO BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AMONG OTHERS, SAW THAT

然後，白人兄弟姐妹等人看見

THE COVID PANDEMIC HAD ALREADY ASSAULTED BLACK BODIES.

COVID PANDEMIC已經襲擊了黑衣人。

SO THEY WERE MORE EMPATHETIC.

所以他們更有同情心。

SO AS A RESULT OF THAT, GEORGE FLOYD GOT TO THEM IN A WAY THAT,

是以，喬治・弗洛伊德以這樣的方式找到了他們。

SAY, ERIC GARNER HAD NOT, IN A WAY THAT OTHER BLACK DEATHS,

SAY, ERIC GARNER HAD NOT, IN A WAY THAT OTHER BLACK DEATHS,

WALTER SCOTT SCOTT AND MIKE BROWN HAD NOT.

沃爾特-斯科特-斯科特和邁克-布朗沒有。

SO TAKE THIS MOMENT OF RECKONING AND USE IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO

是以，要把握住這一時刻，把它作為一個機會，以達到以下目的

REFLECT MORE CRITICALLY UPON OUR LIVES AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN

更加審慎地反思我們的生活，並找出我們如何能夠

EXTEND IT BEYOND THE YAHOO, AND THE CELEBRATION, AND THE RIGHT

把它延伸到雅虎之外，和慶祝活動，和權利。

ON TO SOMETHING DEEP AND SUSTAINED.

到一些深層次的和穩定的東西。

>> Stephen: ONE OF THE RALLYING CRIES-- I WANT TO GET

>> 史蒂芬.

TO ANOTHER ONE.

到另一個。

I WANT TO GET TO "I CAN'T BREATHE" IN JUST A MOMENT.

我想去 "我不能呼吸 "在短短的一瞬間。

BUT ONE OF THEM WAS DEFUND THE POLICE, CALLS TO DEFUND THE

但其中有一個是 "取消警察，呼籲取消警察"。

POLICE.

警察：

BARACK OBAMA SAID THIS WEEK THAT DEFUND THE POLICE, HE CALLED

巴拉克-奧巴馬本週表示，資助警察，他呼籲。

IT-- LET ME GET THIS RIGHT-- A SNAPPY SLOGAN THAT LOST A BIG

它... ... 讓我把這個權利... ... 一個SNAPPY SLOGAN，失去了一個大。

AUDIENCE.

聽眾：

DO YOU AGREE WITH HIM THAT THAT-- WHILE THE ATTENTION MAY

你是否同意他的觀點... ...雖然注意力可能會...

BE RIGHT, CALLING FOR DEFUNDING THE POLICE CAN TURN OFF A WIDE

正確的，呼籲資助警察可以引起廣泛的反響。

SWATH OF THE POPULACE?

一群人？

>> WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

>> 好吧，這是毫無疑問的。

AND THEN, I KNOW PEOPLE WHO ARE UPSET WITH HIM, BUT IF YOU READ

然後，我知道有些人對他很不滿意，但如果你讀到了

THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW, THE WAY THE QUESTION WAS SET UP, HE'S

整個採訪，問題設置的方式，他是。

TRYING TO ANSWER IT BASED UPON THE PRESUMPTION THAT USING THAT

試圖回答它的基礎上的假設，使用該

PHRASE WOULD ALREADY LOSE PEOPLE.

PHRASE WOULD ALONEY LOSE PEOPLE。

BUT REMEMBER THIS: MARTIN LUTHER KING JR., SAID, HEY, THE

但要記住這一點，馬丁-路德-金，說，嘿，該

MODERATE, WHITE MINISTERS IN BIRMINGHAM WROTE ME AN OPEN

溫和的白人部長在BIRMINGHAM給我寫了一封公開信。

LETTER, AND THEY ACCUSED ME OF BEING AN EXTREMIST.

信，他們指責我是一個極端分子。

AND HE SAID, FIRST IT GOT TO ME.

他說："首先是我的問題。

BUT THEN I THOUGHT, WAIT A MINUTE, JESUS WAS AN EXTREMIST

但後來我想，等一下，耶穌是個極端主義者。

FOR LOVE.

為了愛。

AMOS WAS AN EXTREMIST FOR JUSTICE.

亞摩斯是一個追求正義的極端主義者。

MARTIN LUTHER FOR REFORMATION.

馬丁-盧瑟促進改革。

SO I GOT USED TO THAT TERM AND EMBRACED IT.

所以，我習慣了這個詞，並將其融入其中。

THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

問題是我們在這裡談什麼？

IF BARACK OBAMA RIGHTLY SAYS, HEY, DO YOU WANT THE COMMERCIAL

如果巴拉克-奧巴馬正確的說："嘿，你要不要商業化？

OR THE PRODUCT?

還是產品？

DO YOU WANT TO SELL IT AND CELEBRATE IT AND SAY, HEY, WE'RE

你想賣掉它，慶祝它，並說，嘿，我們是。

ALL DOING IT?

都在做？

OR DO YOU WANT TO QUIETLY MOVE UP TO THE BAR AND SAY, LOOK,

或者你想悄悄地走到吧檯前，說，看。

THIS IS THE STUFF NANEEDS TO HAPPEN.

這是事情的NANEEDS發生。

THAT I AGREE WITH.

我同意。

BUT HERE'S THE PROBLEM-- IF YOU'RE USING YOUR PARTICULAR

但問題是 -- 如果你使用你的特殊的。

MOMENT, MR. OBAMA-- AND YOU HAVE ONE OF THE BIGGEST PLATFORMS IN

等一下，奧巴馬先生... ... 而你有一個最大的平臺，在

THE WORLD BESIDES STEPHEN COLBERT, YOU'VE GOT THE NEXT

在史蒂芬-科爾伯特身邊的世界，你有下一個。

BIGGEST ONE-- FIGURE OUT HOW TO SAY, LOOK, BUT I STAND WITH

最大的一個... ... 想出如何說，看，但我站在一起，

THOSE WHO WANT TO REFORM THE POLICE.

那些想改革警察的人，

IN FACT, I STAND WITH THOSE WHO WANT TO ABOLISH SOME OF THE

事實上，我與那些希望廢除一些國家的法律的人站在一起。

HORRIBLE PRACTICES HERE.

糟糕的做法在這裡。

ABOLITION WAS NOT A BIG THING WHITE PEOPLES LIKED IN THE

廢除奴隸制並不是白人喜歡的大事情。

MID-INE00s IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT GUESS WHAT?

在這個國家，但你猜怎麼著？

IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

這是正確的做法。

I BELIEVE IN BEING SELF-CRITICAL AND BEING INTROSPECTIVE.

我相信要自我批判，要有洞察力。

USE WORDS THAT WON'T TURN PEOPLE OFF, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, DON'T

使用不會讓人反感的詞語，但同時也不要讓人反感。

USE YOUR PLATFORM TO MAKE THE VULNERABLE MORE VULNERABLE.

使用您的平臺，讓脆弱的人更脆弱。

IF, IN YOUR MODERATION, YOU ARE STRONG AGAINST THE WEAK BUT YOU

如果在你的模式中，你對弱者很強勢，但你

ARE WEAK AGAINST THE STRONG, YOUR MODERATION IS WORSE THAN

對付強者是弱者，你的模式化比強者更糟糕。

EXPEDIENT.

快速：

IT'S COWARDLY AT THAT POINT.

在這一點上，它是懦弱的。

AND WE DON'T WANT TO USE A PLATFORM TO REINFORCE THE POWER

我們不希望使用一個平臺來重新加強權力。

OF THOSE WHO ALREADY ARE MIGHTY AND UNDERCUT THOSE WHO HAVE A

在那些已經強大的人中，在那些有能力的人中，在那些有能力的人中，在那些有能力的人中。

REAL ISSUE HERE.

真正的問題在這裡。

THE POLICE HAVE HARMED AND HURT PEOPLE FOR SO LONG, THAT MAYBE

警察長期以來一直在傷害人們，這也許是。

REFORMATION IS NOT ENOUGH.

改革是不夠的。

AND LET ME SAY THIS, TOO.

讓我說這一點，太。

DEFUND SIMPLY MEANS THIS-- YOU WANT TO PUT MONEY IN THE

撤資的意思就是--你想把錢放進銀行裡。

ACCOUNTS OF THOSE WHO ARE MENTAL HEALTH EXPERTS SO THAT WHEN THE

心理健康專家的賬目，以便於在發生意外情況時，能及時向有關部門報告。

POLICE ARE CALLED, YOU CAN SEND THEM OUT.

警察被叫來了，你可以把他們送出去。

SO, YEAH, FIND A DIFFERENT WORD, FIND A DIFFERENT PHRASE, BUT I

所以，是的，找到一個不同的單詞，找到一個不同的句子，但我。

THINK OBAMA COULD STAND BEHIND THOSE WHO WANT TO FIND NEW WAYS

認為奧巴馬會站在那些想找到新方法的人一邊。

TO ENCOUNTER OLD PROBLEMS.

應對舊的問題。

>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK.

>> Stephen:我們必須要快速休息一下。

BUT WHEN WE COME BACK, I'LL ASK PROFESSOR DYSON WHAT GIVES HIM

但等我們回來後，我會問戴森教授是什麼給他的？

HOPE.

希望：

STICK AROUND.

堅持下去。

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