Name: 能源安全、歐盟關係和政治權力遊戲。北溪2號的辯論是怎麼回事？ (Energy security, EU relations and political power plays: What the Nord Stream 2 debate is all about)
Uploaded: 2020-10-23T20:23:32.000Z
Duration: 12 min 36 s

I said, Why is Germany spending billions and billions of dollars to Russia to get their energy from Russia?

我說，德國為什麼要花幾十億、幾十億美金到俄羅斯去從俄羅斯獲得能源？

And then we're supposed to protect Germany from Russia?

然後我們就應該保護德國不受俄羅斯的傷害？

Yet so far, the Nord Stream two pipeline meant to carry gas from Russia to Germany is nearly finished.

然而到目前為止，意在將天然氣從俄羅斯輸送到德國的北溪二管道已經接近完工。

But Germany is still having to defend the project from critics who say it hands undue influence to Russia.

但德國仍然不得不從批評者那裡捍衛這個項目，這些批評者說它把不適當的影響交給了俄羅斯。

Our opinion is that Nord Stream two should be completed.

我們的意見是，北溪二號應該完成。

It is a project that is run by Russian and European industries.

這是一個由俄羅斯和歐洲工業界經營的項目。

It would send a strong signal for Germany to say right now that it will withdraw from this project that comes at the expense of Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Poland that would help unify Europe.

如果德國現在就說將退出這個以犧牲立陶宛、愛沙尼亞、拉脫維亞和波蘭為代價的項目，這將發出一個強烈的信號，這將有助於歐洲的統一。

This pipeline splinters it it today we're coming to you from the Gaza Meter in the heart of Berlin.

這條輸油管把它劈開了 今天我們將從柏林市中心的 "加沙儀表 "為您報道。

Now it's hard to imagine now, but gas used to be pumped into homes from gas supply tanks like this one built in 1910.

現在很難想象，但以前的天然氣是從像這個建於1910年的供氣罐裡抽到家裡的。

Now it's been decommissioned a long time ago.

But the question of how to power Germany or Europe is an enduring one for Germany at least part of the answer for the future lies in the Nord Stream two pipeline.

但對德國或歐洲來說，如何供電是一個持久的問題，至少未來的部分答案在於北溪二管道。

現在這是一個有爭議的選擇上。

But first, here's a closer look at the project.

但首先，我們來仔細看看這個項目。

All seemed well between Germany and Russia back in 2018 when Vladimir Putin and former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroder celebrated the start of construction work on North Stream two.

早在2018年，當弗拉基米爾-普京和德國前總理格哈德-施羅德慶祝北溪二號工程開工時，德國和俄羅斯之間的一切似乎都很好。

The North Stream two pipeline is set to carry 55 billion cubic meters of Russian gas to Germany directly every year, without passing through either Ukraine or Poland.

北溪二管道每年將向德國直接輸送550億立方米的俄羅斯天然氣，既不經過烏克蘭也不經過波蘭。

The gas will travel from the city of V Berg in Russia, along the 2400 kilometer underwater pipeline through the Baltic Sea to the German coast.

這批天然氣將從俄羅斯的V Berg市出發，沿著2400公里的水下管道通過波羅的海到達德國海岸。

It's almost complete there just 150 kilometers still to be laid.

那裡幾乎已經完成了，只是還有150公里要鋪設。

But in July this year, the US threatened sanctions against all individuals and companies involved in the pipeline.

但在今年7月，美國威脅要對所有參與該管道的個人和公司進行制裁。

It even looked like it might be scrapped much toe Washington's delight.

它甚至看起來像它可能會被取消... ...華盛頓的喜悅。

In 1973 the first gas shipments from the former Soviet Union arrived in West Germany.

1973年，前蘇聯的第一批天然氣運抵西德。

It was the height of the oil crisis and the U s was furious.

那是石油危機的高峰期，美國非常憤怒。

Since then, the Soviet Union and later Russia have worked hard to step up energy supplies to Germany, even though there have been plenty of political conflicts between the two countries over the years, like when the Soviet army marched into Afghanistan in 1979 to rescue its shaky communist regime, or when Vladimir Putin annexed Ukraine's Crimean peninsula in 2014.

從那時起，蘇聯和後來的俄羅斯一直努力加強對德國的能源供應，儘管這些年兩國之間有很多政治衝突，比如1979年蘇聯軍隊進軍阿富汗拯救其搖搖欲墜的共產主義政權，或者2014年普京吞併了烏克蘭的克里米亞半島。

So far, Germany has always endeavored to separate politics from its economic interests when it comes to Russia.

迄今為止，德國在對俄問題上一直努力將政治與經濟利益分開。

But that could now change with the poisoning of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny.

但現在這種情況可能會隨著俄羅斯反對派領導人阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼的中毒事件而改變。

Pressure is mounting on Chancellor Angela Merkel to take a firm stance how to deal with Russia.

默克爾總理面臨的壓力越來越大，要求她對如何與俄羅斯打交道採取堅定的立場。

For many, that's what the question around Nord Stream two is really about.

對於很多人來說，這才是圍繞著北斗流二號的真正問題。

This pipeline gives Russia one money and to regional influence handed to them by Europe's power player.

這條管道給了俄羅斯一個錢，給了歐洲強國交給他們的地區影響力。

Germany and some European countries, like Poland and the Baltic states, argue that the pipeline makes Europe too dependent on Russian gas, and the fact that the project bypasses Ukraine means that Russia can turn off supplies there while still delivering to and earning from gas sent to Western Europe.

德國和一些歐洲國家，如波蘭和波羅的海國家，認為該管道使歐洲過於依賴俄羅斯天然氣，而且該項目繞過烏克蘭，意味著俄羅斯可以關閉那裡的供應，同時仍然可以向西歐輸送天然氣並從中獲利。

Bad politics shouldn't be rewarded with good business.

壞的政治不應該得到好的商業回報。

Others again argue against conflating too many layers.

還有的人又認為，不要把太多的層次混為一談。

Here's Michael Harms of the German Eastern Business Association because we need a reaction towards all these Russian interference.

這是德國東方商業協會的邁克爾-哈姆斯 因為我們需要對所有這些俄羅斯的干預做出反應。

But we would say that stop or to scrap the North Cering too.

但我們會說，停止或取消北塞靈也。

But we not the adequate reaction because these two things are not interconnected.

但我們並沒有充分的反應，因為這兩件事情並不是相互聯繫的。

Oh, I mean we need first of all, with any sanctions We need a clear political goal.

哦，我是說，首先，任何制裁都需要一個明確的政治目標。

What is to clear political goal in this atmosphere?

在這種氛圍下，明確的政治目標是什麼？

Sorry, this is not a reliable and and clear political goal.

對不起，這不是一個可靠而明確的政治目標。

Second, you need an instrument who can act as a leverage to achieve this political goal.

第二，你需要一個能夠作為槓桿的工具來實現這個政治目標。

In that case Oh, the best way would be to stick Thio just rule of law on investment security because again, the Project waas completely approved within European regulation and investment security is value for itself.

在這種情況下哦，最好的辦法是堅持Thio公正的法律規則的投資安全，因為再一次，該項目waas完全準許在歐洲的法規和投資安全是價值本身。

So therefore we can have a political discussion.

是以，我們可以進行政治討論。

But the best way is to stick to clear regulation.

但最好的辦法是堅持明確的監管。

And if not, if we take the political decision to stop the project and it Z, we should clarify that within a also reliable legal framework and that would be very problematic in that case.

如果不是，如果我們採取政治決定停止項目，它z，我們應該在一個也可靠的法律框架內澄清，在這種情況下，這將是非常有問題的。

So if I understand correctly, the clear European position should be that this project was approved under European regulations and stopping it now could be illegal.

所以，如果我理解正確的話，歐洲的明確立場應該是，這個項目是根據歐洲的規定準許的，現在停止它可能是非法的。

Exactly exactly eso we're still believing that the project will be implemented again.

正是如此，我們仍然相信該項目將再次實施。

We think it is a very important European project.

我們認為這是一個非常重要的歐洲項目。

We think that reliability, off investment decisions and off our legal framework is very important for us, very important for Europe, for Russia and also for Germany.

我們認為，可靠性、投資決策和法律框架對我們非常重要，對歐洲、俄羅斯和德國都非常重要。

And we think that will be a project which does not only physically connect Europe with Russia, but also mentally and maybe even will be a future project off our common challenges to fight common challenges in Europe.

我們認為，這將是一個項目，它不僅在物理上連接歐洲和俄羅斯，而且在精神上，甚至可能將是一個未來的項目，以應對歐洲的共同挑戰。

Loftier goals of a united Europe are one thing, but let's not forget this was a really expensive project to build and if it came to it will be a really expensive project to stop.

統一歐洲的更高目標是一回事，但不要忘了這是一個非常昂貴的項目，如果它來到它將是一個非常昂貴的項目停止。

Take a look 50% off North Stream Two shares are owned by Russian energy company Gazprom.

看看五折北溪二號股份由俄羅斯能源公司Gazprom持有。

The other half are divided between five European companies.

另一半則由五家歐洲公司瓜分。

Gazprom would have to write off around five billion euros of investment, marking them as losses.

俄羅斯天然氣工業股份公司將不得不註銷約50億歐元的投資，將其標記為損失。

The rest of the shares are divided among German companies.

其餘的股份則由德國公司瓜分。

Winters, Holland, You Nipper, Energy from France Oh, and Re from Austria and British Dutch companies Shell.

溫特斯、荷蘭、優尼普、法國的能源哦，還有奧地利的Re和英國荷蘭的殼牌公司。

These partners have all invested 950 million euros each, and they could demand compensation from the German government on the company's might even go to the international courts to sue for loss of income.

這些合夥人每人都投資了9.5億歐元，他們可以要求德國政府對公司進行賠償，甚至可能到國際法庭起訴收入損失。

But it's not just that scrapping the pipeline might result in higher gas prices for consumers.

但不僅僅是取消管道可能導致消費者的天然氣價格上漲。

Given the dwindling supply of gas in the Northern Sea, the best and cheapest alternative would be additional supply from Russia.

鑑於北海的天然氣供應量不斷減少，最好的、最便宜的選擇是由俄羅斯追加供應。

But experts on the other side of this debate say those costs are a bearable and that the Nord Stream two pipeline is just more trouble than it's worth.

但另一邊的專家則表示，這些費用是可以承受的，北溪二號管道只是麻煩多多，得不償失。

Time to speak to Claudia Comfort of the German Institute for Economic Research Way don't need a further pipeline.

是時候和德國經濟研究所的克勞迪婭-康福特談談了，方式不需要進一步的管道。

We have enough existing pipelines right now, the geopolitical Queiroz air so intense that we should really think over whether we should really stick to this very expensive, unnecessary and also conflicting pipeline right now it does not function as a check.

我們現在現有的管道已經夠多了，地緣政治的奎羅斯空氣如此激烈，我們真的應該考慮一下是否真的應該堅持使用這種非常昂貴的，不必要的，也是衝突的管道，現在它並不能起到制衡的作用。

I think because we could negotiate in many ways we could cooperate in so many ways we could cooperate on renewable energy.

我認為，因為我們可以用很多方式進行談判，我們可以用很多方式合作，我們可以在可再生能源方面進行合作。

We could cooperate on hydrogen on whatever products.

我們可以在氫氣上合作，什麼產品都可以。

Why should we cooperate on fossil natural gas?

為什麼我們要在化石天然氣上合作？

Because we don't need fossil natural gas in the future because of emission reduction goals and also because we have different goals in Europe toe really simply go for an energy transition.

因為我們未來不需要化石天然氣，因為減排目標，也因為我們在歐洲有不同的目標，真正簡單的去進行能源轉型。

It's very difficult to understand why the Berlin government is still so much focusing on it because I think we think it's a mistake because of economic reasons because of climate policy reasons, because of energy transformation reasons, because we have to diversify energy imports so it contradicts so many goals.

很難理解為什麼柏林政府還這麼關注它，因為我覺得我們認為這是一個錯誤，因為經濟原因，因為氣候政策的原因，因為能源轉型的原因，因為我們要實現能源進口的多元化，所以它與這麼多的目標相矛盾。

It's very difficult to understand why they still still stick to it.

很不明白為什麼他們還在堅持。

Well, actually, the right response would be to follow the energy transformation and go away from fossil fuel in any any kind of source oil, natural gas and coal simply because to avoid these kind of travel.

好吧，其實正確的對策是跟隨能源轉型，遠離石油、天然氣、煤炭等任何一種化石燃料，只是因為要避免這些出行。

So geopolitical queries which are increasing their some kind of war.

所以地緣政治的疑問，這是在增加他們的某種戰爭。

Actually, um now, well, it's very difficult to say What is the future right now?

其實，嗯，現在，嗯，很難說現在的未來是什麼？

因為這是一個非常困難的項目。

It's almost finished, so it's most likely that it will be finished.

快要完成了，所以很有可能會完成。

But the question is, though, whether the situation will be better after it, because also the U.

但問題是，雖然之後情況會不會好轉，因為也是烏。

So it would be wise, really, to to move, to move forward and to go into the future without natural gas.

所以，如果沒有天然氣，真的是明智之舉，前進，前進，走向未來。

Whatever side of the debate Iran, you probably don't feel as strongly about Nord Stream two as the U.

不管伊朗站在哪一邊，你對北溪二號的感覺可能沒有美國那麼強烈。

Is against this pipeline, ostensibly because it affords the Kremlin too much control over the European energy market.

是反對這條管道，表面上是因為它給克里姆林宮提供了太多的控制歐洲能源市場的機會。

The Americans also want to sell their own liquefied natural gas to Europe.

美國人還想把自己的液化天然氣賣給歐洲。

The Americans, by the way, call it freedom gas, and they're prepared to take a drastic measures in order to prevent the pipelines completion Drastic measures like sanctions.

美國人稱它為 "自由之氣"，他們準備採取嚴厲的措施，以防止管道完工。 嚴厲的措施，比如制裁。

In fact, ever tightening sanctions on the company's working on the pipeline have already caused a de facto suspension of the project.

事實上，對該公司在管道上工作的制裁不斷加強，已經造成該項目事實上的暫停。

The latest target has been the port of Micron in the resort town of Sassen.

最新的目標是位於度假勝地薩森的密克隆港。

It's that's where the last of the pipe laying operations were being held.

就是在那裡進行最後的鋪管作業。

Senators Ted Cruz, Ron Johnson and Tom Cotton wrote a letter to the ports pledging quote crushing legal and economic sanctions for the board members, shareholders and employees working on the pipeline.

參議員特德-克魯茲、羅恩-約翰遜和湯姆-科頓給港口寫了一封信，承諾對在管道上工作的董事會成員、股東和員工進行報價粉碎性的法律和經濟制裁。

Well, that's something that people there did not appreciate.

嗯，這一點，那裡的人並不欣賞。

He should stay where he is and let Europe do its thing.

他應該留在原地，讓歐洲去做它的事情。

字幕列表影片播放

能源安全、歐盟關係和政治權力遊戲。北溪2號的辯論是怎麼回事？ (Energy security, EU relations and political power plays: What the Nord Stream 2 debate is all about)

stick

engage

debate

conflict