because more than ever, it feels like

Saudi Arabia is in the news.

More than ever, it feels like Iran is in the news.

And the one question

I would like to start this off with is...

A lot of the time, the conversation

in and around the Middle East is seen

-through the prism of America. -Absolutely.

It's how America sees the Middle East,

and it's how Americans see the Middle East.

But how does the Middle East see

what's happening in the Middle East right now?

You know, you have a section

at the moment-- "War in the Middle East: It's Persianal."

-Yes. -Well, it is very personal, right?

If you live in Beirut, if you live in Baghdad,

if you live in Cairo, it's very personal

what's going on at the moment.

It involves, uh, uprisings, it involves protests.

It involves the killing of Qasem Soleimani, of course...

-Mm-hmm. -...the head of Iranian Quds Force,

part of the Iranian Revolutionary...

Islamic Revolutionary Guards.

Um, that strike was, uh, ordered by President Trump.

And I know that here in the U.S.,

the concern was, "Oh, my God.

"President Trump is taking us to war.

-This strike is crazy." -Right.

But if you look at it from the Middle Eastern side,

we kind of are already

in constant upheaval and constant war.

And for a lot of people in the region

who are afraid of Iran's regional, um... ambitions

-and its proxy militias... -Right.

that act in countries like Iraq and Lebanon and Syria,

uh, the assassination of Qasem Soleimani was a welcome thing,

and a lot of people, uh, celebrated.

So there's a debate, a political debate here

about whether what Trump does is good or bad for the country.

-Yes. -And the Democrats are very critical of him.

In the Middle East, we look at it,

"Is this good for us or not?"

It is interesting because, in the region,

one thing that I think a lot of people don't realize is

that no group nor country is homogenous.

Because even within Iran, there were people

who were mourning the death of Soleimani.

And then, there were those who were completely against

what Iran was doing in retaliation.

I mean, when the... when the plane was shot down

with the passengers, you know, that was a big uprising

against the Iranian government.

This book, though, is really interesting, because...

it really lays it out in-in...

if I may be so bold to say, in a simple way.

You know, where you talk about why Saudi Arabia and Iran

began this proxy war and this-this cold war

between each other.

What do you think is the inciting incident?

1979. That is the turning point in the Middle East,

that is the year when Iran had a revolution

and became a theocracy.

And I don't mind that you call it "simple,"

because this book is really not just for experts,

-Mm-hmm. -it is for your audience,

it is for people in the United States,

it is for anyone who wants to understand more

about the Middle East and wants to go beyond the headlines

-about tyrants and terrorists. -Right.

This is 40 years of history, seven countries,

and 15 incredible people, whose lives are upended

by the politics and the geopolitics.

People like you and me, who've had difficult pasts,

difficult childhoods.

And when you tell their stories, you can really get to the heart

of the geopolitics, and you can explain the bigger picture

in a much more accessible way.

And the key of the book is to try to explain

why the Saudi-Iran rivalry is so enduring,

-Mm-hmm. -and why it is of huge consequence

to the world's security and America's security.

When you look at the relationship

between Saudi Arabia and the U.S.,

especially under Trump, there's no denying that,

in many ways, it feels like Saudi really has a hold

on Donald Trump.

You know, he loves to work with them-slash-for them...

They may have his phone.

Right, they may have his phone now.

That's what people are wondering, about Kushner

and the WhatsApps after what happened to Jeff Bezos.

When you look at Saudi Arabia,

especially under, um, bin Salman,

you have a ruler who is lauded on one end as being, you know,

-really... -A reformer.

Reformer. The person who's changing the way things are

in Saudi Arabia-- women can drive,

and we're trying to become more liberal,

and we're trying to just, you know, modernize the country.

At the same time, though, is the killing of journalists,

and now it looks like there's the hacking of people.

How is he seen in the region, and maybe even in Saudi?

Do you have any insight into that?

You know, I'll say two things. One, he is a reformer

when it comes to social and cultural norms in the country,

-Yes. -inside Saudi Arabia.

Women can drive, but some of them are also in jail

because they campaigned for the driving.

He wants the credit for allowing women to drive,

not the activists.

-Interesting. -He, you know, his people also,

um, helped carry out the murder of a journalist,

Jamal Khashoggi, who was a friend,

and whose story is one of the stories I tell,

uh, in Black Wave.

Um, but he's a reformer only to some extent,

even within the country.

You know, a lot of the traditional values

-are still there, I think. -Mm-hmm.

The conservative values and the very narrow understanding

of his religion and Islam have been untouched.

So, you could say that his reforms are very far reaching,

but also smoke and mirrors.

The second part of it is my theory,

is that Mohammad bin Salman and Saudi Arabia

would actually like to a little bit more like Iran.

Whatever you think of Iran,

they have a very successful regional strategy.

Uh, they have proxy militias.

They have very loyal allies.

And they manage this very well.

And they've been doing it for 40 years.

And they are feared and respected.

And that's something that Saudi Arabia's never quite managed,

despite all the money that it throws at its allies.

-Right. -It doesn't buy the same kind of loyalty.

So, I think Mohammad bin Salman wants to be a little more

like the tough guy in the region.

A little bit more like Iran, a little bit more

like Qasem Soleimani, and I know that that's

gonna upset a lot of people in both countries.

But I pull no punches, I really,

I'm an equal opportunity critic.

And I think both countries have done

a lot of damage in the Middle East.

It's, it-it really is a-a fascinating look

at how the Middle East came to be in many ways.

Uh, before we go, if you're looking at Iran right now,

you're looking at what happened with Soleimani,

you're looking at how Iranians are reacting to it.

You know, uh, both the leaders speaking out

and-and-and those in-in parliament, for instance.

Is there any indication of how Iran is going

to move forward from what has happened?

I wrote about 40 years of history here--

it took me 40 years to figure out what happened in 1979.

-Wow. -So, I hope you'll invite me back on your show

-in 40 years from now. -Wow!

But what I can tell you, um, is that I think

there is something coming undone in the region.

40 years after 1979, people are protesting,

not only in Iran, but also in Iraq

and in my own country of Lebanon.

People are protesting corruption.

They're protesting, uh, mismanagement

of their countries, of their economies.

They want a different future.

They want what everybody wants.

They want hope, they want dignity,

they want justice.

And I think that Iranians want that, too.

And I think that we are capable in the region

of getting there without outside help.

I think we can do it.

It costs a lot of lives, but I think

the younger generation is ready to let go

of this very difficult past,

and forge a different, uh, path forward.

Well, here's to hoping you're right.

Thank you so much for being on the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

Black Wave goes on sale January 28

and is available for preorder right now.

Kim Ghattas, everybody.