As an official from Taiwan -- an island which Beijing considers a "breakaway territory"

台灣島嶼，被北京當局認為是一塊「分離的領土」。作為臺灣的官員，

-- how do you view these protests?

您如何看待這些抗爭？

The breakaway was at the Neolithic Age, I believe.

台灣在新石器時代就已經分離了。

I think in Taiwan, when we're looking at Hong Kong, we're seeing the beginning of a new way of demonstration for liberal democracies that are what they call "be water" or "leaderless" movement.

當我們從臺灣看香港的現況，看到一種新形態的自由民主運動正在萌芽，也就是所謂「Be Water」或「無大台」的 運動模式。

In our own Sunflower movement which I have participated, where we occupy the parliament for 21 days back in 2014, we started this way of coordinating a leaderless movement.

我參與過太陽花學運，運動者在 2014 年佔領了立法院 21 天。當年我們協助建立這類運動模式時，

By that time, it was more like 20 leaders but in Hong Kong is now like 2000 leaders.

實際上是由 20 個組織所領導，但現在至少有 2000 個組織投入香港運動。

The protests there have grown more violent in the last period of time and there's is the chance that at some point Beijing says "we've had enough, we're going to intervene with force."

最近這段期間，香港的抗爭越來越激烈，北京當局可能在某個時間點會說「我們受夠了， 我們要以武力介入。」

How do you view this?

您怎麼看這件事？

I don't think that will happen on a international watch, when all around the world, liberal democracies are looking at it as something that must not happen.

我覺得只要保持國際注目，那就不會發生。全世界的自由民主國家，都在關注絕對不能夠發生那樣的事。

For our part, the Taiwan universities have been offering a lot of exchange programs to give the students there a safe space to have a conversation with international media, precisely for this.

就我們的部份，臺灣許多大學已經提供交流計劃，讓香港學生能在安全的空間與國際媒體對話，也正是為了 這個原因。

Now you've started writing computer code when you were a kid; you've been active as a hacker, as a computer hacker; now you're the Digital Minister of Taiwan, and you're calling for the reinvention of democracy.

您從小就開始寫電腦程式；也曾經是活躍的黑客。作為臺灣的數位政委，您主要的訴求是民主再造。

How's it supposed to look like and how do you perceive your own role in it?

您認為它的具體概念是什麼？您自己在其中的角色為何？

As a digital minister, my workspace is totally, radically transparent.

作為數位政委，我採取基進透明的工作模式。

All the meetings that I chair, the full transcript can be found on the Internet; it's entirely published.

所有我主持的會議，都能夠在網路上找到逐字稿，完全公開。

By radically trusting people and making the state -- and how the state works -- transparent to the people, everybody can understand not only the why of policies, but also the why of policymaking: the context of policymaking.

從根本上相信人民，讓政府和政府運作方式都對人民透明化，大家就不只能瞭解政策內容，還有政策制定的理由， 也就是決策的背景脈絡。

This is as opposed to other jurisdictions which make the citizen transparent to the state.

這跟「要求人民對政府透明」的政權相當不同。

But is there more to it when it comes to digital reinvention of democracy than just providing a bunch of papers for that matter?

不過，關於民主再造的數位成份，應該不只是提供文件而已？

In Taiwan, what we're doing is we're bringing technologies to where people are, instead of asking people to come to technology.

臺灣的做法，是將科技帶給公民，而不是要求公民配合科技。

We have universal broadband as a human right: anywhere in Taiwan even on top of the mountain of Yushan -- 4000 meters -- you have 10 megabits per second and if you don't, it's my fault.

我們將寬頻網路視為人權：臺灣任何地方，即便是海拔將近 4000 公尺的玉山頂上，都能取用每秒 10Mb 的網速，否則就是我的問題。

It's very affordable, 15 euros per month, so everybody can be their own press, their own youtuber everybody can just voice your opinions.

網路非常實惠，每月只要 15 歐元，每個人都能成為自媒體、Youtuber。所有公民都可以發表自己的意見，

That's the foundation of liberal democracy.

這就是自由民主的基礎。

Because of universal broadband as a human right, we’re also opening up the entire participatory budget; participatory regulation; everything is on a single participation platform called "join.gov.tw" that has more than 10 million active users, out of 23 million active residents in Taiwan.

寬頻人權政策也帶動了連署、法規、預算的全面參與； 臺灣 2300 萬居民裡，目前至少有 1000 萬人運用 Join.gov.tw 平台。 大型科技公司在民主裡扮演的角色，有時會令人質疑，

Big tech companies have played a questionable role sometimes when it comes to democracy, being a platform where fake news can be spread, or where voters could be influenced.

因為在平台上可能散播不實訊息或者影響選民。談到民主再造時，大型科技公司應該擔負起何種角色？

What sort of role do they need to play when it comes to reinventing democracy?

首先，就像 20 年前的垃圾郵件議題一樣，

First of all, just like in the additional counter-spam issue 20 years ago, we need to establish a norm where people can very easily voluntarily participate in the fact-checking community, and this is what the large platform has done.

我們必須建立一些常規，好讓公民能很輕鬆地主動參與事實查核社群，這是大型平台提供者必須做的。 但更重要的是，在各個相關部會，都有至少五人的團隊，

But more importantly, in each of our ministries there's a team of at least five people that can roll out funny memetic-engineered jokes as clarifications, one hour after each disinformation gets spread, so that when people look at this clarification, this is just they'd think as something that's funny.

在假訊息散播後一個小時，發佈運用迷因工程製作的幽默澄清訊息。當人們看到這些澄清資訊， 會覺得十分有趣。 與其讓憤怒化作憤慨，這樣的回應方式，讓人們更能

Instead of turning anger into outrage, it will become something that people can more act in a pro-social manner, and this is way that we don't take down anything by the journalists

做出有利於公益的行為。因此，我們不會將任何新聞報導撤下──部長的話，並不凌駕於新聞工作者之上──而是運用

-- our minister's words are not higher than a journalist's words -- but we contribute into fact-checking and journalism by providing real-time clarifications very quickly and also in a very funny way.

快速、即時、幽默的澄清方式，來協助事實查核以及新聞專業。臺灣希望將經濟模式從製造業轉型， 成為數位化的經濟體，但實行起來並不容易。

Taiwan is also aiming to transform its economy from a manufacturing hub towards a more digitalized economy, it's been difficult to do that.

目前的絆腳石是什麼？遭遇的阻礙為何？這部分目前進展良好。我們的 AI 策略──

What are the stumbling blocks, what are the roadblocks you're encountering there?

指的是輔助式智慧（Assistive Intelligence），不是人工智慧──

Well, we’re doing pretty well actually. Our AI strategy -- which is based on the idea of AI as Assistive Intelligence, not artificial intelligence -- enables our medium and small enterprises to automate part of the work that they consider a chore to do, without replacing anyone’s job. negative externalities on the society or on the environment.

協助中小企業將工作中視為瑣事的環節自動化，而非取代特定的職位。這種基於社會常規、與 AI 共同演化的模式， 對理念一致的經濟體和國家非常有吸引力。我們的獨角獸企業， 也不至於對社會、環境產生負面外部影響。舉例來說， Gogoro 既是共享機車的獨角獸，同時也是能源管理、綠色能源的先驅。 好的。唐鳳委員，謝謝您接受採訪。

For example Gogoro is at once a unicorn for sharing rides on the scooters but also energy management and also the green energy.

Alright. Tang, thank you so much.