From the Thomas and Max Centre of University of Nevada,

這兒是拉斯維加斯的內華達大學

Las Vegas.

湯瑪斯及麥斯中心

I'm Chris Wallace of Fox News.

我是霍士新聞的克里斯華萊士

And I welcome you to the third

歡迎收看第三場

and final of the 2016 presidential debates

亦是最後一場總統辯論

between Secretary Of State Hillary Clinton and Donald J. Trump.

國務卿希拉里對特朗普

This debate is sponsored by the Commission On Presidential Debates.

這場辯論由總統辯論委員會贊助

The commission has designed the format,

委員會擬定辯論形式

six roughly 15-minute segments

分六個環節，每節大約 15 分鐘

with two-minute answers to the first question,

用兩分鐘回答第一條問題

then open discussion for the rest of each segment.

其餘時間是公開討論

Both campaigns have agreed to those rules.

雙方陣營都同意採用這種形式

For the record, I decided the topics and the questions in each topic.

辯論的題目和問題由我決定

None of those questions has been shared

委員會與兩名候選人

with the commission or the two candidates.

事前不知道這些問題

The audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent.

現場觀眾必須保持肅靜

No cheers, boos or other interruptions

不可歡呼、喝倒采或任何干擾

so we and you can focus on what the candidates have to say.

讓大家可以專心聽候選人發言

No noise except right now

但現在可以鼓掌

as we welcome the Democratic nominee for president, Secretary Clinton,

有請民主黨總統候選人希拉里

and the Republican nominee for president, Mr. Trump.

以及共和黨總統候選人特朗普

Secretary Clinton, Mr. Trump, welcome.

國務卿、特朗普先生，歡迎

Let's get right to it.

辯論馬上開始

The first topic is the Supreme Court.

第一個議題是最高法院

We, you both talked briefly about the court in the last debate,

你們在上一場辯論已扼要的論及

but I want to drill down on this

但我想深入探討

because the next president will almost certainly have at least

因為下任總統至少會提名一位

one appointment and likely or possibly two or three appointments,

甚或可能提名二至三位大法官

which means that you will in effect determine the balance of the court

任命會決定未來四分一世紀

for what could be the next quarter century.

最高法院內的勢力分布

First of all, where do you want to see

第一條問題，你們期望最高法院

the court take the country?

帶領國家朝甚麼方向發展？

And secondly,

第二條

what's your view on how the constitution should be interpreted?

你們認為憲法應該怎樣闡釋？

Do the founders' words mean what they say

應該以開國之父的原意為依歸

or is it a living document

抑或它是活的文件

to be applied flexibly according to changing circumstances?

應該按實際情況，因時制宜？

In this segment, Secretary Clinton, you go first,

本環節，由國務卿先回答

you have two minutes.

你有兩分鐘時間

Thank you very much, Chris,

謝謝，克里斯

and thanks to UNLV for hosting us.

謝謝內華達大學接待我們

You know, I think when we talk about the Supreme Court

最高法院大法官任命

it really raises the central issue in this election,

觸及這次大選的核心議題

namely, what kind of country are we going to be?

即美國會變成怎麼樣的國家？

What kind of opportunities will we provide for our citizens?

我們能否為國民提供機會？

What kind of rights will Americans have?

美國人享有甚麼權利？

And I feel strongly that

我深深覺得

the Supreme Court needs to stand on the side of the American people,

最高法院必須站在美國民眾的一方

not on the side of the powerful corporations and the wealthy.

而不單單攀附大企業和權貴

For me, that means that we need a Supreme Court

於我而言，最高法院

that will stand up on behalf of women's rights,

必須捍衛婦女權益

on behalf of the rights of the LGBT community,

跨性別群體權益

that will stand up and say no to Citizens United,

站出來向聯合公民案的判決說不

a decision that has undermined the election system in the country

該判決破壞本國的選舉制度

because of the way it permits dark, unaccountable money

因為它允許不明來歷的黑金

to come into our electoral system.

流入我們的選舉制度

I have major disagreements with my opponent

我與對手在這些議題

about these issues and others

和其他議題上有嚴重分歧

that will be before the Supreme Court,

它必須由最高法院來判決

but I feel that at this point in our country's history,

但我認爲，美國來到這個歷史時刻

it is important that we not reverse marriage equality,

在婚姻平權上不可走回頭路

that we not reverse Roe v. Wade,

不可放棄墮胎權

that we stand up against Citizens United,

要對抗聯合公民案的判決

we stand up for the rights of people in the workplace,

我們捍衛勞工權益

that we stand up and basically say

我們要站出來說

the Supreme Court should represent all of us.

最高法院應該代表所有國民發聲

That's how I see the court

這是我對最高法院的看法

and the kind of people that I would be looking to nominate to the court

而我希望委任進最高法院的

would be in the great tradition of standing up to the powerful,

將會是敢於與權貴抗衡

standing up on behalf of our rights as Americans,

敢於代表美國普羅大眾發聲的人

and I look forward to having that opportunity.

我期望有機會可以成事

I would hope that the Senate would do its job

我希望參議院忠於職守

and confirm the nominee that President Obama has sent to them.

通過總統奧巴馬所任命的人士

That's the way the constitution fundamentally should operate.

憲法的原意本來就是這樣

The president nominates

由總統任命

and then the Senate advises and consents or not.

由參議院提出建議及決定是否通過

But they go forward with the process.

但他們會按照程序去做

Secretary Clinton, thank you.

國務卿，謝謝

Mr. Trump, same question.

特朗普先生，同一條問題

Where do you want to see the court take the country

你希望高院帶國家朝哪個方向發展

and how do you believe the constitution should be interpreted?

憲法又應該怎樣闡釋？

Well, first of all, it's great to be with you and thank you, everybody.

我首先說，很高興可以見到大家

The Supreme Court, it's what it's all about.

最高法院至關重要

Our country is so, so, just so imperative that we have the right justices.

美國最迫切的是有適合的大法官

Something happened recently where

最近發生了一件事

Justice Ginsburg made some very, very inappropriate statements toward me

金斯伯格大法官對我和一干人等

and toward a tremendous number of people,

我所代表的千千萬萬人

many, many millions of people that I represent,

發表了極不恰當的言論

and she was forced to apologize and apologize she did.

她被迫道歉，而她已經道歉

But these were statements that should never ever have been made.

但那些是不應該說的言論

We need a Supreme Court that, in my opinion,

我認為，我們需要的最高法院

is going to uphold the second amendment

會捍衛第二修正案

and all amendments but the second amendment,

和所有修正案，以第二修正案為甚

which is under absolute siege.

此修正案四面受敵

I believe if my opponent should win this race,

假若我的對手當選

which I truly don't think will happen,

雖然我認為她不會當選

we will have a second amendment which will be a very, very small replica

但她一旦當選，到時的第二修正案

of what it is right now.

將會大大削弱

But I feel that it's absolutely important that we uphold

我認為我們必須守住此修正案

because of the fact that it is under such trauma.

因為它危如纍卵

I feel that the justices that I am going to appoint,

我會任命的大法官…

and I've named 20 of them,

我已有20個人選

the justices that I'm going to appoint will be pro-life,

我會任命的大法官都反墮胎

they will have a conservative bent,

他們立場傾向保守

they will be protecting the second amendment,

他們會捍衛第二修正案

they are great scholars in all cases

他們是所有案例的專家

and they're people of tremendous respect.

而且都是德高望重的人

They will interpret the constitution the way the founders wanted it interpreted.

他們會按開國之父的意思闡釋憲法

And I believe that's very, very important.

我相信這是非常、非常重要的

I don't think we should have justices appointed

我不認為應該任命

that decide what they want to hear.

按一己之意來闡釋的大法官

It's all about the constitution of...

最重要是…

and so important, the constitution the way it was meant to be

應該按設立原意來闡釋

and those are the people that I will appoint.

那一類就是我會任命的人

Mr. Trump, thank you.

特朗普先生，謝謝

We now have about 10 minutes for open discussion.

現在是十分鐘的公開討論時間

I want to focus on two issues

集中討論兩個議題

that in fact by the justices that you name

你們所任命的大法官

could end up changing the existing law of the land.

最終可能會更改美國目前的法例

First is one that you mentioned, Mr. Trump, and that is guns.

第一個議題是特朗普提及的槍械

Secretary Clinton, you said last year, and let me quote,

國務卿，你去年有言

the Supreme Court is wrong on the Second Amendment.

最高法院對第二修正案的詮釋有誤

And now, in fact, in the 2008 Heller case,

事實上，2008 年的赫勒案中

the court ruled that there is a constitutional right to bear arms

法院裁定憲法賦予國民擁槍權利

but a right that is reasonably limited.

但有關權利受合理限制

Those were the words of the Judge Antonio Scalia who wrote the decision.

那是大法官斯卡利亞的判辭

What's wrong with that?

那次判決有甚麼問題？

Well, first of all, I support the Second Amendment.

首先，我支持第二修正案

I lived in Arkansas for 18 wonderful years.

我在阿肯色生活了美好的18年

I represented upstate New York.

我當參議員代表過上紐約州

I understand and respect the tradition of gun ownership.

我明白也尊重擁有槍械的傳統

It goes back to the founding of our country.

那是上溯至建國時期的傳統

But I also believe that there can be and must be reasonable regulation.

但我也相信可以也必須有合理規管

Because I support the Second Amendment,

我支持第二修正案

doesn't mean that I want people who shouldn't have guns

不代表我希望不該擁有槍械的人…

to be able to threaten you, kill you or members of your family.

拿槍去威脅你、殺害你或你的家人

And so when I think about what we need to do,

所以我在考慮對策時

we have 33,000 people a year who die from guns.

我們每年有 33000 人遭遇槍殺

I think we need comprehensive background checks,

我認為必須有全面的背景審查

need to close the online loophole, close the gun show loophole.

必須堵塞網上漏洞、槍展漏洞

There are other matters that I think are sensible,

還有別的合理措施…

that are the kind of reforms that would make a difference

別的有用改革可用

that are not in any way conflicting with the Second Amendment.

又不會抵觸第二修正案

You mentioned the Heller decision,

你提到赫勒案的判決

and what I was saying that you reference, Chris,

又引述了我的言論

was that I disagreed with the way the court

當時我不同意的是法院在案中…

applied the Second Amendment in that case.

引用第二修正案的用法

Because what the District of Columbia was trying to do

因為哥倫比亞特區政府的目的…

was protect toddlers from guns.

是保障孩童免受槍擊

So they wanted people with guns to safely store them,

他們希望槍主妥善保管槍械

and the court didn't accept that reasonable regulation,

而法庭不接受那項合理規管

but they've accepted many others.

可法庭接受了許多其他規管

So I see no conflict between saving people's lives and defending the Second Amendment.

保障人命與維護第二修正案沒矛盾

Let me bring Mr. Trump in here.

讓特朗普先生說說

The bipartisan Open Debate Coalition got millions of votes on questions to ask here,

公開辯論聯盟讓幾百萬人票選提問

and this was, in fact, one of the top questions that they got.

以下是其中一個熱門問題

How will you insure the Second Amendment is protected?

如何確保第二修正案受保障？

You just heard Secretary Clinton's answer.

你剛聽完國務卿的回答

Does she persuade you that,

兩位儘管在規管上有歧見

while you may differ on regulation,

但她的話讓你信服…

that in fact she supports a Second Amendment right to bear arms?

她支持第二修正案的擁槍權利嗎？

Well, the DC v. Heller decision was very strongly...

哥倫比亞特區訴赫勒案的判決…

and she was extremely angry about it.

她對判決極端憤怒

I watched. I mean, she was very, very angry when upheld.

我有留意，那次判決讓她震怒

And Justice Scalia was so involved,

斯卡利亞大法官參與判決

and it was a well-crafted decision,

判決有理有據

but Hillary was extremely upset, extremely angry,

但希拉里極端不滿，極端憤怒

and people that believe in the Second Amendment and believe in it very strongly

而堅定擁護第二修正案的人

were very upset with what she had to say.

對她的言論極之不滿

Let me bring in Secretary Clinton. Were you extremely upset?

讓國務卿回應，你可是極端不滿？

Well, I was upset because, unfortunately, dozens of toddlers injure themselves,

我不開心，因為數十孩童槍傷自己

even kill people with guns

甚至槍殺別人

because, unfortunately, not everyone who has loaded guns in their homes

因為並非所有家裏有上彈槍的人

takes appropriate precautions.

都有做恰當的防禦措施

But there's no doubt that I respect the Second Amendment,

不過我尊重第二修正案，毋庸置疑

that I also believe there's an individual right to bear arms.

我也相信個人享有擁有槍械的權利

That is not in conflict with sensible, common-sense regulation.

但那與合情合理的規管並無矛盾

And, you know, look, I understand that Donald's been strongly supported by the NRA,

特朗普獲全美步槍協會熱列支持

the gun lobby's on his side,

那個槍械組織站在他那邊

they're running millions of dollars of ads against me.

豪擲幾百萬美元拍廣告針對我

And I regret that

我為此遺憾

because what I would like to see is for people to come together and say,

因為我希望大家團結起來說：

of course, we're going to protect and defend the Second Amendment,

我們固然要維護第二修正案

but we're going to do it in a way that tries to save

但維護之餘也試著救一救…

some of these 33,000 lives that we lose every year.

每年 33000 條死於槍下的人命

Let me bring Mr. Trump back into that.

再讓特朗普先生回應

Because, in fact, you oppose any limits on assault weapons,

你反對管制攻擊武器

any limits on high-capacity magazines,

反對管制高容量彈匣

you support a national right to carry law.

支持全民執法

Why, sir?

為甚麼？

Well, let me just tell you before we go any further,

繼續之前，讓我跟你說說

in Chicago, which has the toughest gun laws in the United States,

芝加哥槍械法例之嚴冠絕全國

probably you could say, by far, they have more gun violence than any other city.

大概也是全國槍擊案最多的城市

So we have the toughest laws and you have tremendous gun violence.

法例最嚴，偏偏槍擊案最多

I am a very strong supporter of the Second Amendment.

我堅定支持第二修正案

And I don't know if Hillary was saying it in a sarcastic manner,

我不知道希拉里可是說諷刺話

but I'm very proud to have the endorsement of the NRA.

但我以全美步槍協會的支持為榮

It's the earliest endorsement they've ever given

他們未試過這麼早表態支持…

to anybody who ran for president.

總統候選人

I'm very honored by all of that.

我深感榮幸

We are going to appoint justices.

我們要委任大法官

This is the best way to help the Second Amendment.

那是維護第二修正案的最佳途徑

We're going to appoint justices

我們要委任…

that will feel very strongly about the Second Amendment,

積極捍衛第二修正案的大法官

that will not do damage to the Second Amendment.

不會損害第二修正案的大法官

Another issue which divides you

另一個兩位有分歧的議題

and the justices that whoever ends up winning this election appoints

而今屆大選勝出者所委任的大法官

could have a dramatic effect there,

將對這個議題帶來重大影響

- and that's the issue of abortion. - Right.

那就是墮胎 好

Mr. Trump, you're pro-life.

特朗普先生，你反對墮胎

But I want to ask you specifically,

但我想問一個具體問題

do you want the court, including the justices that you will name,

你希望法院，包括你提名的大法官

to overturn Roe v. Wade which includes,

推翻羅訴韋德案判決嗎？

in fact, states a woman's right to abortion?

判決表明女性有墮胎權利

Well, if that would happen, because I am pro-life

我反對墮胎，假如有此一日

and I will be appointing pro-life judges,

我會委任反墮胎的大法官

I would think that that would go back to the individual states.

事情該會交還各州自行決定

But I'm asking you specifically, would you like...

但我問的是你會不會…

If they overturned it, it will go back to the states.

要是推翻判決，就歸還各州自決

What I'm asking you, sir, is do you want to see the court overturn?

我問你想不想法院推翻判決？

You just said you want to see the court protect the Second Amendment.

你剛說希望法院維護第二修正案

Do you want to see the court overturn Roe v. Wade?

你想法院推翻羅訴韋德案判決嗎？

Well, if we put another two or perhaps three justices on,

要是再委任兩、三位大法官